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  1. #1
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    Ask Super Part 2

    Every now and then, I like to throw the floodgates wide open and invite questions and comments from anybody who is game to say something. Now is one of those times.

    For good or bad, I actually have a starter question:

    Quote Originally Posted by voynich
    I'm curious as to what you think happened in sequence from the time she arrived in her home to her death.
    Okay, I posted it elsewhere, but I wrote it down in my book as well. What follows is my timeline from the book (slightly edited for content):

    The Ramseys get home from the party at the Whites'. Burke asks for a bedtime snack. Patsy sees a bowl of pineapple on the kitchen counter and gives him some, telling him not to paw at it. Both children have some.
    JOHN: "Come on, honey. Let's get you to bed. Be with you in a minute, son."
    BURKE: "I'll wait for you there, Dad."
    PATSY: "Just a quick check to see if I missed anything."
    Patsy is now alone. She's doing her thing. John puts JonBenet in bed. They speak for a minute. Maybe something else. Maybe he gives her privates a "quick check." He goes down to the basement.
    Patsy's catching her breath in the living room. John and Burke come up.
    JOHN: Head on up to bed, son.
    BURKE: "Okay, Dad."
    The parents are alone.
    JOHN: "Come on up to bed."
    PATSY: "No, I'm not done yet."
    JOHN: "You shouldn't take so much on yourself."
    PATSY (irritated at him): "I have to. I do everything around here."
    JOHN: "Sorry I mentioned it."
    John goes upstairs. Soon, JonBenet is back down.
    PATSY: "What do you want now, honey," with a little irritation in her voice.
    JONBENET: "I did it again."
    PATSY: "Oh, God. Come on."
    Up to JonBenet's room.
    PATSY: "I don't see anything."
    JONBENET: "I didn't go to bed yet."
    PATSY: "Can't you do anything I ask?"
    JONBENET: "I'm sorry."
    PATSY: "Get in there."
    Into the bathroom. Patsy cleans her up.
    PATSY: "Here, don't tell you're father."
    JONBENET: "You and Daddy tell me secrets."
    PATSY: "Secrets?"
    JONBENET: "Yeah, Daddy tells me to keep secrets."
    PATSY: "Like what?"
    JONBENET (suddenly sullen): "It wouldn't be a secret then."
    PATSY (now more irritated): "Fine."
    Patsy becomes rough.
    JONBENET: "OW! Mommy, that hurts! Daddy's nicer."
    PATSY: "I didn't think your father cleaned you up."
    JONBENET: "He doesn't. He calls it our special game."
    PATSY's head snaps up. Their eyes meet.
    JONBENET (whispering): "I told the secret."
    PATSY (in a rage): "YOU ROTTEN LITTLE LIAR!!!"
    JONBENET (almost in a panic): "I'm sorry, Mommy!"
    PATSY: "I'll teach you a lesson you won't forget!"
    JonBenet tries to run away, but her pants are still around her knees. She tries to pull them up, but trips. As she gets up, Patsy grabs her collar and begins to struggle with her. She MEANS to toss JonBenet onto the bed face-first and spank the daylights out of her. But during the fight, JonBenet takes a hard blow that cracks her skull.
    Patsy sees JonBenet crumpled on the floor.
    PATSY: "That won't work, you little faker. You're in big trouble."
    She picks JonBenet up and lays her on the bed. But she's so limp.
    PATSY: "I said, cut it out."
    Nothing. JonBenet is in shock and doesn't seem to be breathing.
    PATSY (anger replaced by worry): "JonBenet Patricia Ramsey, you cut that out right now. Baby? (Now panicked): BABY?! PLEASE say something! Oh, GOD, I didn't mean to! No, oh, God, no! Not my baby!"
    John comes in.
    JOHN: "What the h*** is going on in here?!"
    Patsy turns. Her eyes are full of tears and hate. She blitzes him.
    PATSY: "YOU *******!"
    He grabs her wrists. "Are you crazy?!" He sees JonBenet. "What did you do?!"
    PATSY: "Me?! You couldn't get it from me, so you took her! And I believed YOU!"
    JOHN: "You stupid, crazy *****! I have to save her!"
    PATSY: "It's too late now! She's dead!"
    JOHN: "NO! That's impossible!" (Keep in mind, John's lost Beth.)
    PATSY: "I'll see you rot for this!"
    JOHN: "How?! You killed her."
    Patsy fights until she's fought-out. She collapses to the floor, sobbing.
    JOHN: "Honey..."
    PATSY: "We can't leave her like this. She's so beautiful. like an angel. She deserves better."
    JOHN: "I can't believe this. Burke...what will happen to him?"
    PATSY: "He can't ever know about this. He can't think we killed JonBenet."
    JOHN: "How do we make this right?"
    PATSY: "I thought you were the big expert!"
    JOHN: "Shut up! I'm trying to think."
    PATSY: "What kind of person would do this?"
    JOHN: "The kind we saw in the Navy. Damn, I wish I could remember who they were."
    And it just spirals from there. Putting anything they can think of into a possible scenario, they stage a scene. But Patsy's dramatic flair puts it over the top. John, wracked with guilt, knows she hangs by a hair, so he says nothing. He also knows that the truth will put them in prison where the inmates will do horrible things to them...
    PATSY: "What kind of knot do we use?"
    JOHN: "Do it yourself."
    Patsy ties a sloppy noose and sloppier wrist ties.
    JOHN: "I can't even look at her like that."
    They think about bundling her up to dump, but it's too risky. In the basement.
    PATSY: "Wouldn't she have been messed with down there?"
    JOHN: "Don't ask me to--"
    PATSY: "You already DID! That's how we got into this mess."
    JOHN: "I can't touch her like this." He uses the brush to avoid touching her privates. His fibers end up on her, having scuffed off his sleeve on her clothing when he pulls his arm back. "Can you write left-handed?"
    PATSY: "Yeah, but--"
    JOHN: "Come on."
    John dictates part of the note, she writes. At this point, she's caught up in this. Her greatest pageant, her greatest adventure. It's exhilarating. Just what he's counting on.


    Now, before anyone responds to this, let me remind you folks that writing this at the time was highly disturbing. Just ripped my guts out.

    Also, on a completely unrelated note, earlier this week there was an interview on an Internet radio program with one of the document examiners in this case. It is EXTREMELY interesting (with quite a few unexpected bits of info). So, I urge you folks to take a listen; even if you don't agree with it, you might find it informative about the process. Here's the link. With any luck it will work for you:

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/TalkFor...ument-Examiner

    Too bad I didn't find out until just a few hours ago. Would have been great to call in and get a few quotes for the book!
    Last edited by SuperDave; 09-21-2009 at 02:54 PM.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  2. #2
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    Relax, SD. Its fiction. The fact that you're able to put words in their mouth as in a movie script, only adds to the fictional aspect.

    Its not like we have an instant replay button. This isn't a replay, and it doesn't even take into account the evidence. We are a long way from being able to reconstruct JBR's final moments. Therefore, the idea that we are able to put words in mouths at this time is preposterous.

    Don't worry, SD this isn't what happened.
    Last edited by Holdontoyourhat; 09-20-2009 at 04:27 PM.

  3. #3
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    Oh, Dave, that is almost unbearable it's so plausible. It conveys the desperate mental place Patsy visited as well as the considerations that prompted the cover-up. It also gets to the heart of what's wrong with the idea that J's and P's previous history somehow proves them incapable of killing...

    (Happy Birthday Week, BTW).


    HOTYH, I understand what you mean, but that's the point of a hypothesis - you do speculate about what may or may not have been said. Attorneys do it in trials quite frequently, as do police when they are allowed to play hardball to get a confession.

    Does Dave state this as fact at any point?

    I mean, given your theory of the crime, you must have some ideas on what was going through the heads of SFF at various points of the evening....that's speculation, too.

  4. #4
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    I thought that Haunting video was creepy......


    regardless of what one thinks of those psychics I do think that the narrative they outlined is a reasonable construction of what happened to JB



    BTW are there any documentaries that re-enact w/actors any RDI scenario

    (as there is that Haunting Evidence which reenacts IDI)?

    I suppose anything can happen but I still find it hard to believe that JB reporting to PR her sexual contact w/JR is what caused PR to snap (rather than w/JR)

    Did she use a fist to crack her skull?

    Where does the pineapple evidence come in?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    I thought that Haunting video was creepy......


    regardless of what one thinks of those psychics I do think that the narrative they outlined is a reasonable construction of what happened to JB



    BTW are there any documentaries that re-enact w/actors any RDI scenario

    (as there is that Haunting Evidence which reenacts IDI)?


    Not that I'm aware of, Voynich. I guess it would be quite difficult because you wouldn't want to use a child actor for such a disturbing sequence and leaving the child out sort of defeats the purpose.

    Talking of which, did anyone here read Jameson's play? I assume that was an IDI script...

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophie View Post
    Not that I'm aware of, Voynich. I guess it would be quite difficult because you wouldn't want to use a child actor for such a disturbing sequence and leaving the child out sort of defeats the purpose.

    Talking of which, did anyone here read Jameson's play? I assume that was an IDI script...
    Yeah well using a child actor for an IDI as they did in Haunting is equally disturbing me think

    they can use a very short woman IMHO

  7. #7
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    I know he was criticised for it, but I think Schiller did the right thing in using a doll in his documentary of PMPT.


    The child in the IDI thing is quite alarming but it is slightly less disturbing than using a child in an RDI scenario. Firstly, the intruder is an anonymous person - a monster who we can pack away with the werewolf and Dracula after watching the film, while the parent who kills is something that can and does happen anywhere so it's more scary. Secondly, Patsy and John are real people and while we don't need to speculate on what prompted an intruder to kill (you just need the facts of the killing), we do need to speculate on what catalysed the RDI killing. That is a disturbing process that takes us all into parts of our minds that we'd prefer not to visit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophie View Post
    That is a disturbing process that takes us all into parts of our minds that we'd prefer not to visit.
    Yeah, I have a strong suspicion based on presence of petechiae and little bleeding for such a severe head wound that she was strangled first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voynich View Post
    Yeah, I have a strong suspicion based on presence of petechiae and little bleeding for such a severe head wound that she was strangled first.
    Correct.

    If things happened the way SD believes, JBR woud've had quite the knot on her head. Make no mistake about that.

    Meanwhile there's the problem of the cord fiber in JBR's bed, the unknown male DNA in various places, and a complete lack of 'smoking gun' evidence that should've accompanied an accident.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
    Correct.

    If things happened the way SD believes, JBR woud've had quite the knot on her head. Make no mistake about that.

    Meanwhile there's the problem of the cord fiber in JBR's bed, the unknown male DNA in various places, and a complete lack of 'smoking gun' evidence that should've accompanied an accident.
    Yeah I was wondering about that -- how do you explain it IDI wise v.s RDI.

    Cord & tape was never sourced, right?


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophie View Post
    I know he was criticised for it, but I think Schiller did the right thing in using a doll in his documentary of PMPT.


    The child in the IDI thing is quite alarming but it is slightly less disturbing than using a child in an RDI scenario. Firstly, the intruder is an anonymous person - a monster who we can pack away with the werewolf and Dracula after watching the film, while the parent who kills is something that can and does happen anywhere so it's more scary. Secondly, Patsy and John are real people and while we don't need to speculate on what prompted an intruder to kill (you just need the facts of the killing), we do need to speculate on what catalysed the RDI killing. That is a disturbing process that takes us all into parts of our minds that we'd prefer not to visit.
    PR and JR are there for you to speculate. They are a known. From my POV, its all Pokey and Gumby. Bending PR and JR into various shapes to suit various RDI ideas.

    The intruder is an unknown. The sky becomes the limit. The motivation, purpose, reason for , and ramifications of JBR's murder are unknown. To put it another way, there is a finite, well defined upper limit to PR and JR involvement: parents accidentally killed their kid whom they had been abusing. We've certainly heard of this before.

    There is however no defined upper limit to an intruder involvement. We don't know what it means. We don't know the ramifications.

    Headline #1: PARENTS ACCIDENTALLY KILLED JBR AFTER ABUSING HER FOR YEARS.

    Headline #2: ______________ KILLED JBR BECAUSE __________________.

    My preference would be #1, because #2 is not known. #2 seems to be the reality, though.
    Last edited by Holdontoyourhat; 09-20-2009 at 11:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
    From my POV, its all Pokey and Gumby. Bending PR and JR into various shapes to suit various RDI ideas.
    .
    LOL

    I can't disprove that they can't tie the garrote slip knot (not something I know) or come up w/movie quotes to Dirty Harry on a dime, or that they could slip out of the house to hide the other part of the paintbrush, or tape or nylon cord, or strangle their own child.

    A similar sort of thing happened again when I suggested an RN-link to L&L, initially the RDIST were dubious but when I cut and pasted the sentences side by side, several suggested that PR as an actress could have heard of a play that was based on L&L.

  13. #13
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    Hypothesis on SuperDave point is that...But maybe the actions of Da's Lacy and Hunter left alot unanswered questions, one seen the R's at one point but to scared to follow thur and the other parents couldn't do this but how many have....And maybe with the new DA pointing out Lacy's mistakes along with others in what you call goverment can show why RDI is plausible.....I see a tend here....
    Knowledge of time is precious.Wisdom of truth is more precious than time..Opinions I write are mine..

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    Actually, HOTYH, I wasn't thinking so much of the specifics of the crime as the hideous fact that - given the right concatenation of circumstances and the right stressors - a regular mother can become a killer. We aren't talking about teenage single mothers or social care cases or families known to be at risk but about regular suburban moms. Most of us will never have the pressures that Patsy faced that Christmas and will get nowhere near crossing that fatal line but it can and does happen. The great viewing public doesn't necessarily like being presented with a graphic depiction of this hugely disturbing truth on prime time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
    Relax, SD.
    I wish I COULD relax, HOTYH. But regardless of what happened, this one still hurts.

    Its fiction. The fact that you're able to put words in their mouth as in a movie script, only adds to the fictional aspect.
    Yeah, I imagine there are quite a few people who would accuse me of that. And, to be perfectly honest, I wasn't too comfortable writing it like a movie script, for a number of different reasons, that not least among them. But, for the life of me, I just couldn't think of any other way to put my feelings into words.

    Its not like we have an instant replay button.
    I know it.

    This isn't a replay, and it doesn't even take into account the evidence.
    Ah, that's where we'll have to sit at opposite ends of the bar, HOTYH. You say it doesn't take into account the evidence, but as I said, this was the ONLY way I could think of where I COULD account for as much of the evidence as I feel is possible to account for.

    Look, if you disagree with my theory, I can accept that. But don't act like you know what's in my head better than I do. Believe me, when I get a thought, I'm the first to know!

    We are a long way from being able to reconstruct JBR's final moments. Therefore, the idea that we are able to put words in mouths at this time is preposterous.
    HOTYH, don't think for a minute that I'm not aware of the limitations before me. But I'd like you to remember that I'm not writing this book just for devotees of the case like you and me; I'm writing it for the average person. And like it or not, this was the only way I could think of where I could put my thoughts into words and have them be immediately understood by someone who's just getting involved with the case. That's my explanation. Also, Sophie is correct: at no point do I say that this IS what happened. I'm very careful to put the proper caveats in place.

    Don't worry, SD this isn't what happened.
    Boy, HOTYH, you're all heart!
    In all seriousness, NOTHING would please me more than to believe that it isn't what happened. But what I want is, at this point, irrelevant.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

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