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  1. #1426
    Madeleine74's Avatar
    Madeleine74 is offline Of course it's my opinion; who else's would it be?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noirdame79 View Post
    This scene taken from the 1984 miniseries Fatal Vision based on the true crime book of the same title, shows how the murders took place and the blood typing and how it proves MacDonald did it.
    (snipped by me for space)

    That was my defacto favorite scene in the entire miniseries. It summed up the forensic blood evidencein a way that was quite compelling and certainly not something to be dismissed.

    Thank you for posting this scene.

  2. #1427
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    I live less than a mile from this duplex and have driven and ran by it many times. Technically, 544 Castle Drive no longer exists since they have changed the address numbers, but obviously the home is still there. In fact recently on a nighttime run I ran through the housing just past the back door where he threw out the murder weapons after the crime. That entire night I could not stop thinking about the actions he took in what turned out to be the entire family's moments inside of that home (Jeff included).
    But I just wanted to say that I have taken much time to read "Fatal Vision", "Final Vision", and am nearly through Errol Morris' "Wilderness of Error" as although after reading "Fatal Vision" I was certain of his guilt, I still believe in being fair when listening to the other side. Ironically enough, in a book that is meant to exonerate MacDonald I read some fascinating details about the crime itself that further cemented my belief in his culpability. Specifically Morris tells of circumstances surrounding two year-old Kristen's death. There were stab wounds to her chest that did not exist on the top that she was wearing. Meaning, the perpetrator lifted up her shirt in order to aim for vital organs in preparation of the assault. And guess what her Father's profession was...
    The fact of this case has always been that Jeffrey MacDonald left his signature all over the crime scene. For instance, the pajama threads under Colette's body, the pajama threads next to the headboard where "PIG" was written in blood, furthermore the latex glove that was used was found to come from a box of latex gloves from underneath the sink. His bloody footprint, his hair, his blood in the bathroom above the sink, etc. It is also incontrovertible that every item surrounding the crime was organic to the home itself, including the murder weapons.
    Now I am not even a lawyer and can tell you that seeing as how he has already been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he selfishly slaughtered his own wife and children, the vulnerable humans that he was designed to protect; the only way he is to be granted a new trial is for his lawyers to establish a strong "Denny Defense". That is they simply must prove Jeff's innocence by proving the guilt of another. That is what I am certain they do not have. His lawyers are haphazardly foolish and reckless with this "evidence doesn't match my client" campaign. It simply will not matter if it doesn't match Jeff. The bottom line is if this new evidence does not match at least a historical person of interest in this case then they are again wasting everyone's time. Just like one of the prosecutors said just last week how there was dog's hair found in one of the child's bedroom when the MacDonalds did not own a dog, so are we to believe the dog was an intruder? These far-reaching defensive fantasies are all far too simple to dispel. Frankly, as a father of two daughters that have the exact same age spread as Kimberly and Kristin and are nearly their same age, I wonder how he was not even considered for the death penalty, especially in North Carolina. I really wouldn't mind seeing him get a new trial if the appropriate death penalty was on the table. I really believe the only reason why he continues to plead innocence was because when he devised this plan he felt he did it so meticulously that it was just never in the plan for him to even be reproached. In his arrogance he knew the story would work, and it did for nearly a decade. So ever since they did begin to accuse him through good detective work (albeit mostly circumstantial), he had a pre-programmed denial mechanism in place because it was never supposed to happen to him like that.
    Another startling little-known fact about this case pertains to the March 1970 copy of Esquire found just underneath the side of the top-heavy coffee table... Many know of the Sharon Tate/Charles Manson article featured in said magazine however, just three days before the MacDonald family is massacred Jeff is verbalizing this story to a Lieutenant friend of his talking about how crazy it is what had happened. Again, just three days before the same thing just happened to him.
    I am sorry ladies and gentleman but I stopped by this evening to say coincidences do not exist. Signing off...

  3. #1428
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    Great post, fatdumplins! I'm right there with you as so many others are here on WS -- and, of course, many, many more folks elsewhere. Re the death penalty: Although the trial was held in NC, it was the Feds who prosecuted, so that may be the reason that DP was not on the table.

    I lived about 30 miles away at the time the murders occurred -- it was the talk of the town. Our next-door neighbors were a retired Army Colonel & his wife. They had lived as a young couple in the same housing area where the MacDonald family lived, but not at the same time. I remember her telling my mom and me that the walls in those apts were paper-thin -- she said you could hear a sneeze, a cough, a toilet flush, a dog bark and even raised voices from the next-door apt -- that was one big reason that the retired couple were sure MacD was guilty. I have never forgotten that little story. And one more thing...



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    fatdumplins !!!

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  4. #1429
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    Thank you borendom. I've lurked this forum for a couple of years and today finally decided to hopefully share some insight. I guess the perpetually renewed MacDonald news launched me. You mention the thin walls within the housing at the time. I do remember testimony from the neighbor of the duplex that stated she had just heard a man's voice. Nothing surprising there, but interesting that no one in 47 years has been able to forensically put anyone other than the habitants in that house. Not even Helena Stoeckley herself. There has never been one scintilla of evidence that points to an foreign entity tied to the crime itself. Again as a father of two young daughters myself, the Eastburn murders that took place very close as well haunt me nearly everyday as well. The odd thing about that case is that there actually was forensic evidence in the Summerhill home that points away from Hennis, yet here we are talking about Jeff MacDonald still trying to get a new trial. That boy is as guilty as the dickens.

  5. #1430
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    Yep, and I remember MacD saying that he heard Collette saying, "Jeff, Jeff, why are they doing this to me?" (while they were beating & stabbing the life out of her??). And the prosecutor (whom I know & I have spoken with him about this just a bit) saying something like, "That isn't very different that her saying, 'Jeff, Jeff, why are you doing this to me?'"

    You can fool some of the people some of the time...


    All posts, unless attributed, are "just my humble opinion," and they are to remain here in Websleuths and are not to be used elsewhere. Thank you.
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  6. #1431
    Madeleine74's Avatar
    Madeleine74 is offline Of course it's my opinion; who else's would it be?
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    This was one of the 2 cases (the other the Manson murders) that got way down deep in my soul and probably launched my interest in true crime. I was too young to remember either of these cases at the time they occurred, but reading books about the cases, and seeing each case's miniseries, definitely haunted me.

    To this day I can't see Gary Cole in any role and not think of him as MacDonald since he played him to perfection in the miniseries. And he's been in lots of TV series lately, he's so good.

  7. #1432
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    Inmate NEEDS to give it up. He is guilty, there is no "new evidence" that has not already been disproven.


  8. #1433
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeleine74 View Post
    (snipped by me for space)

    That was my defacto favorite scene in the entire miniseries. It summed up the forensic blood evidencein a way that was quite compelling and certainly not something to be dismissed.

    Thank you for posting this scene.
    I first saw the miniseries when it aired on A&E and I made the mistake of watching it alone - not my smartest move! I agree, it is compelling and Gary Cole was spot on in his portrayal; Freddy Kassab stated that Cole's portrayal of MacDonald gave him chills. The rest of the cast was also excellent. I'm surprised that it hasn't been officially released on DVD.

    Fatal Vision (1984) Starring Karl Malden (Freddy Kassab), Eva Marie Saint (Mildred Kassab), Gary Cole (Jeffrey MacDonald), Wendy Schaal (Colette MacDonald), Brandy Gold (Kimberely MacDonald, age 5), and Dylan Galer (Kristen MacDonald). The tragic Judith Barsi, whose own fate sadly mirrored that of this case, played Kimberely as a toddler.








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  10. #1435
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatdumplins View Post
    I live less than a mile from this duplex and have driven and ran by it many times. Technically, 544 Castle Drive no longer exists since they have changed the address numbers, but obviously the home is still there. In fact recently on a nighttime run I ran through the housing just past the back door where he threw out the murder weapons after the crime. That entire night I could not stop thinking about the actions he took in what turned out to be the entire family's moments inside of that home (Jeff included).

    But I just wanted to say that I have taken much time to read "Fatal Vision", "Final Vision", and am nearly through Errol Morris' "Wilderness of Error" as although after reading "Fatal Vision" I was certain of his guilt, I still believe in being fair when listening to the other side. Ironically enough, in a book that is meant to exonerate MacDonald I read some fascinating details about the crime itself that further cemented my belief in his culpability. Specifically Morris tells of circumstances surrounding two year-old Kristen's death. There were stab wounds to her chest that did not exist on the top that she was wearing. Meaning, the perpetrator lifted up her shirt in order to aim for vital organs in preparation of the assault. And guess what her Father's profession was...

    The fact of this case has always been that Jeffrey MacDonald left his signature all over the crime scene. For instance, the pajama threads under Colette's body, the pajama threads next to the headboard where "PIG" was written in blood, furthermore the latex glove that was used was found to come from a box of latex gloves from underneath the sink. His bloody footprint, his hair, his blood in the bathroom above the sink, etc. It is also incontrovertible that every item surrounding the crime was organic to the home itself, including the murder weapons.

    Now I am not even a lawyer and can tell you that seeing as how he has already been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he selfishly slaughtered his own wife and children, the vulnerable humans that he was designed to protect; the only way he is to be granted a new trial is for his lawyers to establish a strong "Denny Defense". That is they simply must prove Jeff's innocence by proving the guilt of another. That is what I am certain they do not have. His lawyers are haphazardly foolish and reckless with this "evidence doesn't match my client" campaign. It simply will not matter if it doesn't match Jeff. The bottom line is if this new evidence does not match at least a historical person of interest in this case then they are again wasting everyone's time. Just like one of the prosecutors said just last week how there was dog's hair found in one of the child's bedroom when the MacDonalds did not own a dog, so are we to believe the dog was an intruder? These far-reaching defensive fantasies are all far too simple to dispel. Frankly, as a father of two daughters that have the exact same age spread as Kimberly and Kristin and are nearly their same age, I wonder how he was not even considered for the death penalty, especially in North Carolina. I really wouldn't mind seeing him get a new trial if the appropriate death penalty was on the table.

    I really believe the only reason why he continues to plead innocence was because when he devised this plan he felt he did it so meticulously that it was just never in the plan for him to even be reproached. In his arrogance he knew the story would work, and it did for nearly a decade. So ever since they did begin to accuse him through good detective work (albeit mostly circumstantial), he had a pre-programmed denial mechanism in place because it was never supposed to happen to him like that.

    Another startling little-known fact about this case pertains to the March 1970 copy of Esquire found just underneath the side of the top-heavy coffee table... Many know of the Sharon Tate/Charles Manson article featured in said magazine however, just three days before the MacDonald family is massacred Jeff is verbalizing this story to a Lieutenant friend of his talking about how crazy it is what had happened. Again, just three days before the same thing just happened to him.
    I am sorry ladies and gentleman but I stopped by this evening to say coincidences do not exist. Signing off...
    What a great post! Thank you! (I spaced it for easier reading.) How is the Macdonald home different today than it was back than, and who is living there now? I read some time ago that the duplex was demolished see here:

    http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2580647/

    Just imagine how Macdonald's intruder story could have worked even for a longer period of time if he had vandalized the living room? The crime scene living room is too neat for his story to be believable.

    Satch


  11. #1436
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    Unanswered Jeffery Macdonald Case Questions

    Having studied the Jeffrey Macdonald case for years, and written papers from both prosecution
    and defense viewpoints here are some questions that have not been answered very well by
    either side. Please feel free to comment and add to this list:

    1.) Who owned the suitcase in the bedroom and what do you make of this item?

    Some have speculated, on the prosecution side, that Macdonald had been planning to
    flee before self-inflicting his chest wound in the bathroom and collapsing his lung. Others
    say that Collete threatened to leave shortly before the argument or during the argument . I
    may be wrong, but why wasn't the suitcase entered into evidence?

    2.) The defense claimed that James Frier, a recovering alcoholic being treated at
    Womack Hospital,, tried to call the Macdonald house trying to reach his psychiatrist, Dr.
    Richard Macdonald, and the operator put it through to Jeff's house by mistake. Yet,
    Macdonald in his telling of the intruder story never, at least to my recollection has mentioned
    the Jimmy Frier phone call. It seems odd that he would omit this, as it would seemingly help
    his case on the defense side. What do you make of this? I wish we could get the Mcdonald's
    phone records for that night!

    3.) How well did Jeffrey Macdonald know Helena Stockley and her friends before the
    murders? If at all?

    4.) Did Helena Stockley and Greg Mitchell live together at the time of the murders? How
    far apart did each live from the Macdonald residence?

    5.) Who do you think the unidentified woman that Ken Mica, the police officer, saw that
    night really was standing on the corner in the rain? Is it true that he was told not to report
    seeing her by his superiors, and if so, why?

    6.) The defense has always claimed that not all of Macdonald's wounds were
    photographed. If this is true, why not?

    7.) How many people lived in the Macdonald's apartment? Before Jeff and Collette moved
    into it?

    Satch

  12. #1437
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satch View Post
    Here's food for thought,

    And why after several years of going back and forth I believe Jeff McDonald is guilty. Let's assume that that the minority of those it seems who belive in his innocence, what I can't understand is the following:

    1.) Why was the living room so neat? This was a fight between a medically trained Green Barret and four drug-crazed hippies. Yet all we really have is an overturned coffee table, with the magazines, newspapers, and magazines neatly stacked. I believe there was a flowerpot that was tipped over. And Jeff's slippers are found under the coffee table with part of the slipper stuck under the table.

    2.) How were Jeff and the intruders able to fight in such a small space and in the dark? There's only about four feet of space between the coffee table and the couch. How could five people fight in such a small area, where nothing is disturbed in the living room during the struggle?

    3.) Where and when did Helena Stockley or whoever the girl with the boots and the floppy hate light the candle that she was carrying?
    It was raining outside at the time. The wick would have been wet from the rain. Helena would have had to have found a candle in the Macdonald's house to light it, or brought her own candle. Even if she brought her own, the wick would be wet. How did she light the candle? Did McDonald mistaken the candle for a flashlight?

    4.) How did four people plan all this carnage in the living room and bedrooms with no knowledge of the house or where the Macdonalds' kept things?
    It was dark in that house? How could they see what they were doing? Where did the get the other weapons, the club, knife, and ice pick? Fatal Justice said that Helena told friends that she kept an icepick in her purse. Too coincidentle for me that the McDonald's had an icepick and the Mildred Kassab had used it when she would babysit the girls to thaw out popsicles for them. Macdonald always said he did not have an icepick?

    5.) How come the intruders never say anything or give a motive to hurt Jeff or the family when they were there? How did they know that Jeff would be sleeping on the couch? Did they just calmly walk into the house? Who was attacked first? Jeff says that when he awoke that there were four people standing over him with a club, knife, and ice pick and hitting him with it. Meanwhile, he says that he heard Kim screaming "Daddy! Daddy! Daddy" and Colette screaming "Jeff, why are they doing this to me?" To whom were they talking? Were there two other people in the bedroom for a total of six people in the apartment that night?

    6.) We know that the family was killed. We know that Jeff's injuries were minor, very minor compared to the rest of the family? Why leave the one person who could identify you kept alive? Fatal Justice said the phone rang during the murders, and that frightened off the assailants. But that seems to be a stretch. Even so, why weren't any of the assaients injured at all? That really bothered me. Jim Blackburn, the prosecutor said that if Macdonald's story were true, at least one of those people would be dead. Macdonald would have beating the living **** out of them. He was a Green Barret. medically trained as a doctor and solider to respond quickly to combat and emergency situations. Yet, an Afghan and his pajama top pulled over his head stopped him from trying to save his family?

    Now on the Defense side of things:

    1.) Yes, I believe the crime scene was not preserved properly and I always wanted to know what Macdonald's pajama bottoms who were thrown away could have presented?
    2.) The unidentified fingerprints ruined in the photo lab. To whom did they belong?
    3.) The black wool fibers found on Collette's mouth and shoulder and the unsourced candle wax drippings. The cigarette ashes in one of the rooms although neither Collette nor Jeff smoked?
    4.) The biggest mystery is Jimmy Frier- He claimed that he called the Macdonald house the night of the murders and that "a lady answered the phone." Mr. Frier was looking for his psychiatrist, Dr. Richard Macdonald, who was another person on the base. The operator mistakenly put it through to Jeff Macdonad's house. For decades, I have always relished getting records of that phone conversation! Frier said he heard what sounded like a "Party going on." He was being treated for Alcoholism at Womack Hospital.

    Interesting things from the defense for sure, but not enough there to raise reasonable doubt as to Macdonad's guilt. Just my view.

    Satch
    I'm going to throw out what I know in answer to your defence questions.

    1. Yes the pj bottoms would have been very valuable as evidence. Given the blood patterns in Kris's room, the theory is he held her on his lap whilst stabbing her. We'll never know.

    2. We'd all like to know. However I don't see this as a defence given the rest of the evidence or lack thereof of any intruders. We all have fingerprints in our homes from visitors, sales people,
    trades people, etc.

    3. In family photos you can clearly see the children wearing black wool knit caps. MacDonald quickly sold the family's possessions so there was nothing left to compare. and the theory presented at trial was McDonald placed Colette face down on Kristen's floor before he carried her body back to the MB.
    The carpet in the Mcdonald apt was shag carpeting. Do you know it? It was very popular in the 60's-70's--impossible to vacuum up all the fibres. Colette's dryer was in the room off the master bedroom and she allowed her neighbours to use it. It's quite possible the fibres were dropped whilst the laundry was being done.
    There are photos you can see a CS investigator smoking a pipe in one of the rooms, that's most likely where the ash and matches came from.
    Candle wax drippings were sourced to wine bottles used as a candle holder. We all did that back in the late 60's, 70's, well me and my friends did, don't know about yours. The wax drippings on the washer/dryer were candles you would put on a cake. You throw candles out when they burn down so that's probably the reason no candles were found.

    As for Jimmy Frier, the defence had every opportunity to present him as a witness at trial but chose not to. Could be due to his leaving the treatment programme that day and relapsing.

    If you want to pm me, I can give you links to the trial transcripts, all the hearings in fact, to the hospital records, lab tests, witness statements, etc.

  13. #1438
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satch View Post
    What I don't understand is that none of these claims by the defense are "new" evidence. Therefore, why does the Appellate Court keep allowing oral arguments on them? How many appeals does Macdonald have left? How often can he keep appealing?

    Satch
    I'd really like to know that too. Why do they keep accepting issues that have already been appealed and lost? From what I've been given to understand this is the last, they will make a decision sometime in 2017. then he'll most likely appeal that decision, arguments heard once again taking him to his next parole hearing in 2020 at which time he will not be granted parole since he refuses to admit guilt and show remorse. That should be the end of his sorry ass.

  14. #1439
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    I just started reading Fatal Vision. My initial impression of macdonald is that he is "off." He literally spends so much time describing his sex life, to a reporter who was writing a book about the murder case, that the descriptions take up pages upon pages. wth?
    "A civilized society should not accept that children simply disappear."
    John Mallon as quoted in Unearthing a Serial Killer

    When you have eliminated the impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
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    It is quite a three pipe problem
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  15. #1440
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    It's a really good book.

    Quote Originally Posted by AGettler View Post
    I just started reading Fatal Vision. My initial impression of macdonald is that he is "off." He literally spends so much time describing his sex life, to a reporter who was writing a book about the murder case, that the descriptions take up pages upon pages. wth?

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