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Thread: Stain in Trunk May Show Outline of Child**REVISIT FOR READING*

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by octobermoon View Post
    Thank you for responding. This poor child never had a chance. No wonder the dp is on the table.

    and I am so very glad that the dp is on the table (like the lethal injection table I hope). Especially after reading the news headlines and finding out this new info. It just brings all the anger towards KC out on the table again too.
    Cindi Lou


    Some people may consider me crazy, I say I'm just inspired.

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  3. #77
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    For those wondering if the stain could be because it dripped off Caylee after she drowned in the pool, you need to check on the effect of Luminal on areas treated with Chlorine bleach. IIRC areas that were treated with bleach will show up very brightly under Luminal. And I read here that the stain only glowed a little bit. So that might rule out the pool theory.

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  5. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Angel716 View Post
    Then what is causing the smell if there is no decomp fluid?? So confused......
    Rotten food. Its a simple as that. Rotten food is a decomposing body. I need a link to a report that says the smell comes from a decomposing human body.

    I hear consistent with.
    I hear decomposing body, but not decomposing human body.
    I need to hear something official that says the smell came from a decomposing human body.

  6. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by oh_gal View Post
    So what could cause something like this? I mean, short of being soaking wet (from water, or some other substance), it seems impossible to me that the outline of a body would materialize, since it's been noted that it was not caused by any body fluids....unless...the carpet of the car had recently been treated with something.
    This is the same fbi lab tech that imagined an image on the duct tape.

    This is the same fbi lab tech that is imagining an image of a child in a stain.

    This is the same fbi lab tech that got her dna on the duct tape and contaminating the evidence.

    Is she just out of school or what?

    If I am wrong please correct me.

  7. #80
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    Forming a theory - Baquacil is proprietary, and I'm not sure if this patent is saying it contains copper. The date of the patent application I linked is dated 1996. IIRC, the A's used Baquacil in their pool, instead of chlorine. Could this explain the luminol glow?


    Snipped from Wiki:
    Drawbacks
    Luminol has some drawbacks that may limit its use in a crime scene investigation:

    Luminol chemiluminescence can also be triggered by copper or copper-containing alloys, horseradish, and certain bleaches[citation needed]; and, as a result, if a crime scene is thoroughly cleaned with a bleach solution[specify], residual bleach will cause the entire crime scene to produce the typical blue glow, effectively camouflaging any organic evidence, such as blood.
    Luminol will also detect the small amounts of blood present in urine and it can be distorted if animal blood is present in the room that is being tested.
    Luminol reacts with fecal matter, causing the same glow as if it were blood.
    Luminol's presence may prevent other tests from being performed on a piece of evidence. However, it has been shown that DNA can be successfully extracted from samples treated with luminol reagent.[4] [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminol[/ame]


    Snipped from freepatentsonline:
    The invention discloses a composition and method for the enhancement of polyguanide based water sanitizing systems and for conversion of such systems to alternative water sanitizing systems if desired. The method includes the addition of an enhancing or conversion agent selected from the group consisting of a halogen salt, a Bromohydantoin and a chlorobromohydantoin in an amount to provide a concentration of approximately from 1 to 50 parts per million. Sodium borate and/or polyphosphate may also be added to the system to improve the effectiveness of the enhancing agent. The system may be converted to an alternative water sanitizing system by the addition of a sanitizing agent selected from the group consisting of chlorine, copper, silver, quaternary ammonium compounds, and polyquaternary ammonium compounds, which may be released into the water at a rate of 0.01 to 1 ounces per hour per 10,000 gallons of water for a period until conversion is complete.

    Edit to add: copper is a known anti-bacterial
    Edit to to add: link to freepatentonline http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5527506.html

    sorry about that, I guess its getting late
    Last edited by treeseeker; 09-29-2009 at 11:44 PM. Reason: add a bit of info

  8. #81
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    This sight claims that Baquacil leaves a sticky, slimy residue in your pool and plumbing. Of course, they are trying to sell an alternative product, so...

    http://www.claritywaterproducts.com/health.html
    Snip:
    Baquacil is a totally engineered chemical, poly-hexa-methylene-biguanide. It is more expensive than chlorine, and much more difficult to use. It does not create noticeable irritating byproducts like chlorine, but there are reports of invisible vapors arising from spas treated with Biguanide that cause an unpleasant tickling in the throat, or more severe coughing, or may even build up to the degree that a person in the spa is unable to breathe.

    There are other negatives to consider. It seems that after what could be a very short time, the water quality starts to decline. In addition, there have been reports of strange infestations occurring in pools on the Baquacil program. If this happens, you will probably have to drain the pool and start over again.

    Unfortunately, the Biguanide leaves behind a slimy, sticky residue that covers the entire surface of your pool or spa and permeates all your plumbing, so simply draining the water does not eliminate this problem. It takes an acid based cleaner to dissolve this slime, and may necessitate lots of scrubbing and/or multiple cleanings and drainings. Fun!

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  10. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by notthatsmart View Post
    Rotten food. Its a simple as that. Rotten food is a decomposing body. I need a link to a report that says the smell comes from a decomposing human body.

    I hear consistent with.
    I hear decomposing body, but not decomposing human body.
    I need to hear something official that says the smell came from a decomposing human body.
    We have George (former LE) saying that the smell of human decomp is distinctive and was the smell coming from the car. We have Cindy (nurse) saying the smell was that of a dead body--until she backtracked. We have LE officers saying that the smell was human decomp. We have cadaver dogs alerting to the trunk. We have air composition tests that contain the chemical signatures you would expect for human decomp. We have paper towels in the trunk that contain the combination of fats you would expect for a human being who had decomposed in the trunk for a time period consistent with the air composition test results. We have a hair from a dead Caylee in the trunk. The forensics results from the trunk are consistent with those from another trunk that contained a dead baby, and inconsistent with tests run on rotting pizza and dead squirrels.

    And rotting food and most decomposing animals are chemically VERY different from a decomposing human body. There would not be any reason they would smell remotely similar, and indeed they don't, according to everyone who has ever had the opportunity to compare the smells.


  11. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by notthatsmart View Post
    This is the same fbi lab tech that imagined an image on the duct tape.

    This is the same fbi lab tech that is imagining an image of a child in a stain.

    This is the same fbi lab tech that got her dna on the duct tape and contaminating the evidence.

    Is she just out of school or what?

    If I am wrong please correct me.
    If guess the entire FBI are incompetent. We shall see soon enough.
    Either that or they have some VERY convincing evidence in order to get the Death Penalty back on the table.

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  13. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by notthatsmart View Post
    This is the same fbi lab tech that imagined an image on the duct tape.

    This is the same fbi lab tech that is imagining an image of a child in a stain.

    This is the same fbi lab tech that got her dna on the duct tape and contaminating the evidence.

    Is she just out of school or what?

    If I am wrong please correct me.
    Yes, you are wrong. First, the person who talked about the impression in the trunk liner in her email is not the same one who noticed the heart shape on the duct tape. Second, there is no reason to believe either of these things was "imagined."

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  15. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by AZlawyer View Post
    We have George (former LE) saying that the smell of human decomp is distinctive and was the smell coming from the car. We have Cindy (nurse) saying the smell was that of a dead body--until she backtracked. We have LE officers saying that the smell was human decomp. We have cadaver dogs alerting to the trunk. We have air composition tests that contain the chemical signatures you would expect for human decomp. We have paper towels in the trunk that contain the combination of fats you would expect for a human being who had decomposed in the trunk for a time period consistent with the air composition test results. We have a hair from a dead Caylee in the trunk. The forensics results from the trunk are consistent with those from another trunk that contained a dead baby, and inconsistent with tests run on rotting pizza and dead squirrels.

    And rotting food and most decomposing animals are chemically VERY different from a decomposing human body. There would not be any reason they would smell remotely similar, and indeed they don't, according to everyone who has ever had the opportunity to compare the smells.
    George and Cindys statements are not official lab reports.
    LE Officers said it was human decomp? How do they know?
    Paper towels? When you say expect. You are not stating it as fact.
    Hair from a dead Caylee? I thought the fbi agent said she couldnt confirm it came from a dead human body.
    Forensic results . You mean air sample? isnt that junk science?
    Again you say consistent with. State it as fact if you know.
    Who are these everyone people that have compared? Give me names.
    I need to hear an expert say they can tell the difference. Can you send me a link to an expert report? perhaps fbi or someone reliable?

  16. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by notthatsmart View Post
    Rotten food. Its a simple as that. Rotten food is a decomposing body. I need a link to a report that says the smell comes from a decomposing human body.

    I hear consistent with.
    I hear decomposing body, but not decomposing human body.
    I need to hear something official that says the smell came from a decomposing human body.
    What you need is a report showing it's rotten food.
    Just my opinion.....
    Finally found a reason for the Ignore feature!

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  18. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by notthatsmart View Post
    George and Cindys statements are not official lab reports.
    LE Officers said it was human decomp? How do they know?
    Paper towels? When you say expect. You are not stating it as fact.
    Hair from a dead Caylee? I thought the fbi agent said she couldnt confirm it came from a dead human body.
    Forensic results . You mean air sample? isnt that junk science?
    Again you say consistent with. State it as fact if you know.
    Who are these everyone people that have compared? Give me names.
    I need to hear an expert say they can tell the difference. Can you send me a link to an expert report? perhaps fbi or someone reliable?
    The LE officers know the smell because they have smelled it. Same as George.

    Yes, it is a fact that the paper towels contain the same fats as a decomposing human body.

    It is also a fact that an official FBI or expert report will NEVER NEVER say "this is definitely human decomp" or anything similar. They will ALWAYS say that, of course, if something completely crazy happened (like...um...a couple of pigs playing with nail polish remover and bleach in the trunk and then dying in there) it might cause a similar chemical signature. That pig scenario wouldn't explain Caylee's hair, though. And of course the fact that Caylee was found dead also bolsters the conclusion that her dead body was in her mom's trunk. At least we've eliminated the possibility that these lab results are incorrect because Caylee is alive.

    The FBI agent was saying that she was told she couldn't say the hair was definitely from a dead body. Exactly what I said in the previous paragraph. They won't say 100%, not ever.

    The air samples are not junk science. They are fairly new science, so they will certainly be challenged by the defense, but they aren't junk science.

    You really just need to read the threads and do your own research. Or call a homicide cop. Yes, experts (which would include homicide cops and cadaver dogs) can tell the difference between these smells. Yes, their testimony regarding these things is permitted in court.


  19. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by notthatsmart View Post
    Rotten food. Its a simple as that. Rotten food is a decomposing body. I need a link to a report that says the smell comes from a decomposing human body.

    I hear consistent with.
    I hear decomposing body, but not decomposing human body.
    I need to hear something official that says the smell came from a decomposing human body.
    Let me ask you a question....seriously.

    Have you ever had any cooked food in your garbage that smelled like a dead body? It stinks maybe but not like a decomposing body.

    The decomposition of a pig and a human are very similar. Decomposition of other animals differ from human. So it was a pig or human. That is why they use pig cadavers to simulate human body events. (I know, I know.....I saw it on CSI) Also science is never going to give you a 100% answer. You are going to get a consist with.

    I researched all of this by doing a google search. I am sure that if you do so you will find a lot of information about decomposition of the human body and the air test used. We have all done our research and you will have to do yours.
    Last edited by 100%Agave; 09-30-2009 at 12:21 AM.
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  21. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by notthatsmart View Post
    This is the same fbi lab tech that imagined an image on the duct tape.

    This is the same fbi lab tech that is imagining an image of a child in a stain.

    This is the same fbi lab tech that got her dna on the duct tape and contaminating the evidence.

    Is she just out of school or what?

    If I am wrong please correct me.
    I can't decide if you are serious or if you just like to try to get everyone riled up but.....

    These were different techs.

    If someone thinks that they can see the outline then I am not going to say that they did or did not until I can see the same image for myself but I am not going to run them over either.

    As far as I know the image on the duct tape was not imagined. I am pretty sure that it was noted by Dr. G as well but I am sure someone else will correct me if I am wrong.

    When you have humans working rather than machines, you run the risk of a human making a mistake. It happens since they are after all humans and not perfect. That is why they have tech DNA on hand. Just because the tech's DNA was found on the tape does not mean that it is ruined. If there was other DNA they would have been able to separate it if needed.

    ther_beatingA_Dead::ban me:

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    Last edited by 100%Agave; 09-30-2009 at 12:37 AM.
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  23. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by AZlawyer View Post
    Yes, you are wrong. First, the person who talked about the impression in the trunk liner in her email is not the same one who noticed the heart shape on the duct tape. Second, there is no reason to believe either of these things was "imagined."
    She said stain, not impression. Her name is Karen B Cowan. I will check to see if she is the same person. here is the link where she said stain.
    http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21151220/detail.html

  24. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by 100%Agave View Post
    I can't decide if you are serious or if you just like to try to get everyone riled up but.....

    These were different techs.

    If someone thinks that they can see the outline then I am not going to say that they did or did not until I can see the same image for myself but I am not going to run them over either.

    As far as I know the image on the duct tape was not imagined. I am pretty sure that it was noted by Dr. G as well but I am sure someone else will correct me if I am wrong.

    When you have humans working rather than machines, you run the risk of a human making a mistake. It happens since they are after all humans and not perfect. That is why they have tech DNA on hand. Just because the tech's DNA was found on the tape does not mean that it is ruined. If there was other DNA they would have been able to separate it if needed.

    ther_beatingA_Dead::ban me:
    Do you have a link to Dr G report stating that?

    Yes people make mistakes, but these are professionals and this evidence may be used in court.

    Do you know the names of each tech that made these statements? I will look myself too. thanks

  25. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZlawyer View Post
    We have George (former LE) saying that the smell of human decomp is distinctive and was the smell coming from the car. We have Cindy (nurse) saying the smell was that of a dead body--until she backtracked. We have LE officers saying that the smell was human decomp. We have cadaver dogs alerting to the trunk. We have air composition tests that contain the chemical signatures you would expect for human decomp. We have paper towels in the trunk that contain the combination of fats you would expect for a human being who had decomposed in the trunk for a time period consistent with the air composition test results. We have a hair from a dead Caylee in the trunk. The forensics results from the trunk are consistent with those from another trunk that contained a dead baby, and inconsistent with tests run on rotting pizza and dead squirrels.

    And rotting food and most decomposing animals are chemically VERY different from a decomposing human body. There would not be any reason they would smell remotely similar, and indeed they don't, according to everyone who has ever had the opportunity to compare the smells.
    Not to mention the smell of rotting food does not last for MONTHS..I'm willing to bet the car stinks to this very day...well over a year later.

    ETA..we forgot LA's description of the smell, his was a doozy.
    Last edited by MD MOMMY; 09-30-2009 at 12:49 AM.
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  27. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by notthatsmart View Post
    She said stain, not impression. Her name is Karen B Cowan. I will check to see if she is the same person. here is the link where she said stain.
    http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21151220/detail.html
    There is a stain and an impression. The stain was reported by George and LE also; it sounds like the stain is very obvious. The impression is an outline left by the weight of an object/body on the trunk liner. Like if you left a heavy box in your trunk--that would leave an impression.

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  29. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by notthatsmart View Post
    Do you have a link to Dr G report stating that?

    Yes people make mistakes, but these are professionals and this evidence may be used in court.

    Do you know the names of each tech that made these statements? I will look myself too. thanks
    Dr. G did not report the heart outline. Just the one FBI tech (E. Fontaine, I believe).

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  31. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Spangle View Post
    What you need is a report showing it's rotten food.
    There is a report. There was a trash bag with rotten food in that trunk. The trash came from Tony's kitchen.

  32. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by notthatsmart View Post
    There is a report. There was a trash bag with rotten food in that trunk. The trash came from Tony's kitchen.
    What food items were in that trash again?
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  34. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by AZlawyer View Post
    The LE officers know the smell because they have smelled it. Same as George.

    Yes, it is a fact that the paper towels contain the same fats as a decomposing human body.

    It is also a fact that an official FBI or expert report will NEVER NEVER say "this is definitely human decomp" or anything similar. They will ALWAYS say that, of course, if something completely crazy happened (like...um...a couple of pigs playing with nail polish remover and bleach in the trunk and then dying in there) it might cause a similar chemical signature. That pig scenario wouldn't explain Caylee's hair, though. And of course the fact that Caylee was found dead also bolsters the conclusion that her dead body was in her mom's trunk. At least we've eliminated the possibility that these lab results are incorrect because Caylee is alive.

    The FBI agent was saying that she was told she couldn't say the hair was definitely from a dead body. Exactly what I said in the previous paragraph. They won't say 100%, not ever.

    The air samples are not junk science. They are fairly new science, so they will certainly be challenged by the defense, but they aren't junk science.

    You really just need to read the threads and do your own research. Or call a homicide cop. Yes, experts (which would include homicide cops and cadaver dogs) can tell the difference between these smells. Yes, their testimony regarding these things is permitted in court.
    Hence, everything to fbi says is just subject to speculation or interpretation? That doesn't say much for the fbi. If that is true though, I just interpret it different than you. I need them to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

    I didnt think you could get me a link to an official report that shows human beings can smell the differnce between decomposing animals. I cant find it either. I could call a cop, but I dont trust them anymore than you do.

  35. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by MD MOMMY View Post
    What food items were in that trash again?
    Soda
    juice

    Not sure of everything, but there were maggots which indicate rotten food.

  36. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by notthatsmart View Post
    Soda
    juice

    Not sure of everything, but there were maggots which indicate rotten food.
    There were soda cans..and maggots on the paper towel which contained adipose.
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  38. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by notthatsmart View Post
    Do you have a link to Dr G report stating that?

    Yes people make mistakes, but these are professionals and this evidence may be used in court.

    Do you know the names of each tech that made these statements? I will look myself too. thanks
    Sorry....my bad...I see that AZLawyer set me straight on Dr. G.

    Let me know what you find.
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