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Thread: 2009.10.09 Duct Tape Photos From Remains Released

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaerieB View Post
    Just wanted to add that, after a private conversation with QB, I figured out we were talking apples and oranges. I thought we were referring to Caylee's dental impression but in reality someone else had suggested it was KC's impression we were looking at. The claim is that KC used her teeth to tear the tape (see attachment) and you can see her dental arch as well as supposed teeth. That poster says you can see the impression just above and to the left of the H. I've been over that picture to the point of making myself ill, and just don't see it.
    I know FaerieB, I have looked and looked and really cannot locate the impression of the teeth he refers to. I wanted to see it but I don't.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by tankgirl View Post
    Hi ZZ- Do you have a link to info that was released from Dr. G regarding the position of the tape on the skull? Been trying to find it and it would be helpful here, I think.

    thanks!
    It can be found in the autopsy report. Page 2 section I C.

    Hope this helps!

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  4. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousTwo View Post
    Defense now says the tape wasn't over Caylee's mouth and that there's DNA to prove that a "stranger" was involved:

    http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/ent...his-child.html

    <snipped>

    "The state has led you to believe that there's duct tape around the mouth," attorney Linda Kenney Baden tells CBS' Maggie Rodriguez. "All we can say is that's going to be a disputed issue."

    On the duct tape, DNA was found that belongs to an unidentified person, and that evidently is key to the defense's approach."
    Quote Originally Posted by FaerieB View Post
    It can be found in the autopsy report. Page 2 section I C.

    Hope this helps!
    It appears the defense is going to argue about the placement of the duct tape. Moreover, whether it occluded the nose and thereby obstructed both airways. There are Emails regarding the ME not taking scaled photos of the tape when it was on the skull. Measurements were not taken because the ME thought the full measurements would be done by the FBI. The prosecutor is asking if anyone did take scaled photos, before the duct tapes were seperated, so a computerized recreation image of the skull with tape can be done to show the tape was over the mouth and nose areas. page 638-639 of 1405

    In the autopsy report the ME says on page 2 section I C that "a portion of the maxilla" was covered by the duct tape. If she did not include scaled measurements (of the width of the overlapping duct tape and maxilla area) and if others in the FBI did not take them it may make it hard to prove both airways were obstructed.


    I have included a photo of a human anatomy drawing of a skull, with a maxilla, for reference.

    http://catalog.nucleusinc.com/genera...it.php?ID=3535

    Please do not shoot the messenger. This is just my two cents on what the defense may claim.

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  6. #79
    I typed this up from the ME's report, and posted it another thread. Posting it here too for reference regarding the tape on Caylee's skull. Please note that not only Dr. G observed the tape, but Drs. Utz and Schultz as well.


    Office of the Medical Examiner; Report of Examination

    excerpt from Dr. G

    Findings
    I.
    C. Several overlapping pieces of duct tape, over the anterior portion of the lower skull, including mandible and a portion of the maxilla
    1. Duct tape still attached to scalp hairs
    2. Mandible still in approximate anatomic position with no visible soft tissue beneath the duct tape

    excerpt from Dr. G

    Skeletal Remains:

    The skull was initially received in a separate paper bag with duct tape over the lower portion of the face with the tape still attached to some of the scalp hair. A large portion of the scalp hair was in a mat under the skull. The mandible was still in its approximate anatomic location in spite of comple skeletonization.
    (See attached reports by Dr. Utz and Dr. Schultz.)

    excerpt from Dr. Utz

    Attached to the hair and overlying the posterior mandible and maxilla are several pieces of overlapping gray tape.

    excerpt from Dr. Shultz

    A hair mat was noted on the base of the skull and grayish colored tape was noted covering the mouth and nasal aperture areas. The tape remained in place because it was adhered to the hair of the skull. In addition, the mandible was still retained underneath the base of the cranium positioned slighty posterior. Dr. Utz removed the tape...

    Opinion: Considering the dispersal of the skeletal remains, it would not be expected to find the mandible in this position unless something affixed the mandible in this position prior to decomposition and the hair matting forming. In skeletal cases involving surface depositions, the mandible and cranium are normally found disarticulated because there is nothing to hold the mandible in place after the soft tissues decomposes. Based on the position of the tape and mandible, it can be inferred that the mandible remained in this position because the tape held it in place prior to the hair forming into a matt on the base of the skull.

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  8. #80
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    This just makes one feel sick inside.

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  10. #81
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    I find it hard to understand why the ME office would neglect to photograph the skull in the state in which it was received. I saw the question asked in an e-mail, but didn't see an answer. But anyhoo . . .

    Didn't OCSO photograph everything at the scene as they found it?
    Wasn't there some discussion in a hearing about those photos being leaked and
    aren't those the ones JB wants prints of b/c his experts can't "manipulate" them?

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  11. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki View Post
    I find it hard to understand why the ME office would neglect to photograph the skull in the state in which it was received. I saw the question asked in an e-mail, but didn't see an answer. But anyhoo . . .

    Didn't OCSO photograph everything at the scene as they found it?
    Wasn't there some discussion in a hearing about those photos being leaked and
    aren't those the ones JB wants prints of b/c his experts can't "manipulate" them?

    .
    The ME office *did* photograph Caylee's skull, as received, and with tape intact. The email you note discusses that the ME did not include a means of scaling in the photographs taken.

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  13. #83
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    thats so sickening!
    i hope they have the death penalty on the table when it comes time for casey's trial.

    with the duck tape in that position when they found caylee's skull, would it mean that casey could have suffocated caylee to death with the tape so the baby couldn't breathe?

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  15. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by chemcopout View Post
    thats so sickening!
    i hope they have the death penalty on the table when it comes time for casey's trial.

    with the duck tape in that position when they found caylee's skull, would it mean that casey could have suffocated caylee to death with the tape so the baby couldn't breathe?
    That's the $64,000 question!! We don't have the answer-YET!!!

    "It's time to tell the story of a little girl named Caylee" Linda Drane Burdick
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  16. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanE View Post
    The ME office *did* photograph Caylee's skull, as received, and with tape intact. The email you note discusses that the ME did not include a means of scaling in the photographs taken.


    Thanks, BeanE, for clearing that up for me. I have to admit being confused
    several times when reading the discovery notes with e-mails, etc. . .
    Getting old - brain cells dying off . . .
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  18. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanE View Post
    The ME office *did* photograph Caylee's skull, as received, and with tape intact. The email you note discusses that the ME did not include a means of scaling in the photographs taken.
    *whew*.. Baden's assertions had me a little concerned there. Really really hope that very careful records were made of the skull/tape as it was found.

    Last night I found some more images of the tape as it appeared before being cleaned up/separated. These were b/w images included in part of the autopsy report iirc.. sorry I didn't link them at the time, it was late..I will attempt to find them and bungle my way through providing a link. ...won't be surprised if one of you experts finds em before I have time to finish typing this! Looking at them it was difficult to tell whether the tape was overlapped originally or if it ended up that way as a result of weather and time.

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  20. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by tankgirl View Post
    *whew*.. Baden's assertions had me a little concerned there. Really really hope that very careful records were made of the skull/tape as it was found.

    Last night I found some more images of the tape as it appeared before being cleaned up/separated. These were b/w images included in part of the autopsy report iirc.. sorry I didn't link them at the time, it was late..I will attempt to find them and bungle my way through providing a link. ...won't be surprised if one of you experts finds em before I have time to finish typing this! Looking at them it was difficult to tell whether the tape was overlapped originally or if it ended up that way as a result of weather and time.
    Muzikman has all the duct tape pictures in high resolution posted in a file you can download.

  21. #88
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    OH poop.. can't find em now. This is going to drive me nuts, better step away. I'll try again later.

  22. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanE View Post
    Muzikman has all the duct tape pictures in high resolution posted in a file you can download.
    thanks BeanE! I was typing as you posted!

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  24. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanE View Post
    Muzikman has all the duct tape pictures in high resolution posted in a file you can download.
    Unfortunately that file doesn't include a picture pre-separation.

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  26. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by tankgirl View Post
    *whew*.. Baden's assertions had me a little concerned there. Really really hope that very careful records were made of the skull/tape as it was found.

    Last night I found some more images of the tape as it appeared before being cleaned up/separated. These were b/w images included in part of the autopsy report iirc.. sorry I didn't link them at the time, it was late..I will attempt to find them and bungle my way through providing a link. ...won't be surprised if one of you experts finds em before I have time to finish typing this! Looking at them it was difficult to tell whether the tape was overlapped originally or if it ended up that way as a result of weather and time.

    BBM

    Look what her husband said on December 13:

    Internationally-respected forensics pathologist Michael Baden told Eyewitness News on Friday that duct tape could have been used to suffocate or silence someone and prevent them from screaming, which means the child could have suffered traumatic injury.

    DUCT TAPE ON MOUTH OF CHILD'S REMAINS
    http://www.wftv.com/news/18264817/detail.html



    ETA: to clarify, I'm laughing that Baden's husband is on record as having contradicted his wife (LKB), not that Caylee was suffocated.
    Last edited by BeanE; 10-15-2009 at 02:33 PM. Reason: clarify reason for laughing

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  28. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaerieB View Post
    Just wanted to add that, after a private conversation with QB, I figured out we were talking apples and oranges. I thought we were referring to Caylee's dental impression but in reality someone else had suggested it was KC's impression we were looking at. The claim is that KC used her teeth to tear the tape (see attachment) and you can see her dental arch as well as supposed teeth. That poster says you can see the impression just above and to the left of the H. I've been over that picture to the point of making myself ill, and just don't see it.
    Probably a long shot, but so many things can be gleaned and proved through forensic testing. Maybe if investigators and those testing (forensics and bite mark testers) do actually see bite marks, they can be matched to KC. Again, I don't know if that's completely crazy to think but it would be great. BTW, faerie...I don't see the marks either
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  29. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by tankgirl View Post
    *whew*.. Baden's assertions had me a little concerned there. Really really hope that very careful records were made of the skull/tape as it was found.

    Last night I found some more images of the tape as it appeared before being cleaned up/separated. These were b/w images included in part of the autopsy report iirc.. sorry I didn't link them at the time, it was late..I will attempt to find them and bungle my way through providing a link. ...won't be surprised if one of you experts finds em before I have time to finish typing this! Looking at them it was difficult to tell whether the tape was overlapped originally or if it ended up that way as a result of weather and time.
    I know for sure they were in the link in the official docs thread of the entire 1400+ pages recently released. Around the middle of that document somewhere...maybe in the 600s or 700s?

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  31. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by essies View Post
    That's the $64,000 question!! We don't have the answer-YET!!!
    Well we will soon know the exact dimensions of Caylee's skull if we do not already. They can measure all the dimensions of her mandible and maxilla. They can measure the width of each piece of tape. If cumulatively the height of three strips of tape was greater than the distance from the inferior surface of the mandible ( the bottom of it) to the superior portion of the maxilla ( the top of it) it would cover her nose and mouth. I would bet my paycheck that the height of the tape is greater!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanE View Post
    BBM

    Look what her husband said on December 13:

    Internationally-respected forensics pathologist Michael Baden told Eyewitness News on Friday that duct tape could have been used to suffocate or silence someone and prevent them from screaming, which means the child could have suffered traumatic injury.

    DUCT TAPE ON MOUTH OF CHILD'S REMAINS
    http://www.wftv.com/news/18264817/detail.html



    ETA: to clarify, I'm laughing that Baden's husband is on record as having contradicted his wife (LKB), not that Caylee was suffocated.
    Yes, I saw that interview and remember thinking he would be sleeping on the sofa for a while...

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  35. #96
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    Initial duct tape photos for download are at:

    http://cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/St...llducttape.pdf

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  37. #97
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    Bumping for NTS. Photos of 2 pieces of overlapping duct tape before the pieces were separated and straightened out.
    Attached Files Attached Files

    "It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94

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  39. #98
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    just thinking about the heart shape on the duct tape and was wondering if the heart impression couldve been made with the "tiffany" ring or bracelet. naybe when she was pressing the tape down she made an impression with the bracelet? just a thought.

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    On one hand the examiners state that there is no sticky residue left on the duct tape. On the other they state there was sticky sticker residue that was destroyed during fingerprint analysis. This does not really make much sense to me. It would make MORE sense if the inner part of the tape had retained glue then the outer EXPOSED part retaining sticker glue residual. I personally do not see anything in these photos other then three very weathered pieces of duct tape.

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  42. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astraea View Post
    On one hand the examiners state that there is no sticky residue left on the duct tape. On the other they state there was sticky sticker residue that was destroyed during fingerprint analysis. This does not really make much sense to me. It would make MORE sense if the inner part of the tape had retained glue then the outer EXPOSED part retaining sticker glue residual. I personally do not see anything in these photos other then three very weathered pieces of duct tape.
    Personally, in the grand scheme of things the heart shape sticky residue is not that important. Yes, three pieces of weathered duct tape is what is depicted in the photos. More than likely only the jury will get to see photos of the duct tape on the skull at trial.

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