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  1. #1
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    Was there more than one shirt?

    This post is speculative and focused on OCSO's statements to the FBI lab about their theory that the "Big Trouble comes in Small Packages" shirt was intentionally placed on Caylee due to the message on it.

    First - I don't believe the shorts were on Caylee. I believe they were shoved down in the bag. Why do I say this? Because they were 100% cotton and fairly well preserved. That means they had to have a barrier between them and soil, as well as the decomposing body. Now, I will give that one barrier that could have prevented the body from destroying the cotton shorts would have been a pull-up, so there is that possible explanation.

    Second - I do believe the "Big Trouble" shirt was on Caylee. I believe this because it was 100% cotton and with the exception of the neckband with label and the plastic lettering, was all but gone.

    But there is a third piece of fabric (lumped in with Q81 "clothing) that is described as:

    white fabric 4" x 6" with an attached strip of purple fabric - 9.5" x 1"

    Unfortunately, this is lumped in one evidence number Q81 (which I don't agree was a good idea) that contains the "big trouble" collar and the letters from the "big trouble" shirt. Description of the collar follows:

    pink and white border/strap fabric with tag attached (this is the "big trouble" collar"

    See page 1198 of http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21252257/detail.html

    You can view the unredacted photo of all these things lumped into Q81 on page 1211 of that pdf.

    Now the problem with lumping them together is that when they did the fiber analysis, they also lumped all fiber into one analysis under the evidence number Q81 which you can read on page 1248 of the pdf. Note that this analysis include the following constituent fibers for the totality of "Q81":

    pink printed off-white cotton, blue printed off-white cotton, purple off-white cotton, orange printed off-what cotton

    Okay, the problem here is that the "big trouble" shirt (as far as I know) was a pink shirt - period. There were no "purple strips, stripes" or otherwise. So the 4 x 6 inch white cloth with a purple strip 9.5 inches long isn't from the big trouble shirt. And I don't believe the purple fiber listed in the analysis is from the "big trouble" shirt either...it's from the white cloth with the purple strip.

    A 4 x 6 inch piece of a 2T shirt (making an assumption it was a second shirt) is a rather large piece to survive. Adding to that, the purple strip is 9.5 x 1" long and it survived as well. That would lead one to believe that this piece of white and purple cloth may have been more protected for a period of time as well.

    Here is the question (or speculation): Is the OCSO theory that the "big trouble" shirt was intentionally placed on Caylee due to the fact they believe there was a second shirt down in the bag? Is this leading them to believe that Caylee was basically undressed from what she had had on (ante-mortem) and then this "big trouble" shirt placed on her with the ante-mortem clothing just stuffed into the bag?

    Just an idea to discuss.
    Last edited by Valhall; 10-11-2009 at 09:02 AM. Reason: added white fabric

  2. #2
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    And p.s.

    While I have been unable to find pics of Circo "big trouble" toddler shirts (other than what OCSO put up), I did find the shorts (different size, but same shorts)...

    http://www.babyoutfitter.com/popup_i...D=1926&image=0

    http://www.babyoutfitter.com/product...oducts_id=1926

  3. #3
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    Val - You bring up an interesting point.

    The "Big Trouble Comes in Small Packages" tshirt has always bothered me because it seemed like she was sending a message.

    Also, the shirt was size 2T and I think we have seen pictures of Caylee wearing that specific tshirt when she was much younger than she was on June 16, 2008. KC seemed very proud of the fact that Caylee was "huge" for her age (per her jailhouse video) so why would the tshirt still fit Caylee that summer (if indeed the pictures are from months or a year previous)?

    Did KC deliberately place that shirt in her "package" to further stage something?
    Last edited by It's Not the Nanny; 10-11-2009 at 09:13 AM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by It's Not the Nanny View Post
    Val - You bring up an interesting point.

    The "Big Trouble Comes in Small Packages" tshirt has always bothered me because it seemed like she was sending a message.

    Also, the shirt was size 2T and I think we have seen pictures of Caylee wearing that specific tshirt when she was much younger than she was on June 16, 2008. KC seemed very proud of the fact that Caylee was "huge" for her age (per her jailhouse video) so why would the tshirt still fit Caylee that summer (if indeed the pictures are from months or a year previous)?

    Did KC deliberately place that shirt in her "package" to further stage something?
    Well, you bring up a good point that challenges part of my speculation and that is - was the 'big trouble' shirt in the bag instead of on Caylee. I have to say I'm having some severe mental anguish (not to mention emotional) over the fact that the shirt's collar was still completely intact (still a closed loop) AND some distance away from the bag and skull.

    That becomes a bit problematic to explain.
    Last edited by Valhall; 10-11-2009 at 09:56 AM. Reason: typo

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valhall View Post
    Well, you bring up a good point that challenges part of my speculation and that is - was the 'big trouble' shirt in the bag instead of on Caylee. I have to say I'm having some severe mental anguish (not to mention emotional) over the fact that the shirt's collar was still completely intact (still a closed loop) AND some distance away from the bag and skull.

    That becomes a bit problematic to explain.
    Ooh, Valhall. I am intrigued about your point that the shirt's collar was a closed loop. I am guessing the collar was reinforced in a way that the rest of the shirt wasn't, but that still doesn't explain how it got over her head (if it was in fact over her head in the first place).

    In your opinion, was KC's statement about not finding her clothes yet related to this shirt?

    With every piece of info that comes out in this case, I just get a little more nauseated.
    Just my opinion anyway... cheers!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by sariebell View Post
    Ooh, Valhall. I am intrigued about your point that the shirt's collar was a closed loop. I am guessing the collar was reinforced in a way that the rest of the shirt wasn't, but that still doesn't explain how it got over her head (if it was in fact over her head in the first place).

    In your opinion, was KC's statement about not finding her clothes yet related to this shirt?

    With every piece of info that comes out in this case, I just get a little more nauseated.
    I have to admit I thought about that statement. But at the same time, this shirt is over in an area where ribs, the scapula and even part of the C1 vertebrae was located. Which implies all that made it's way over there en masse...or so it would seem. But how?

    This would require the skull disconnecting from the torso prior to animals dragging part of the remains away. And I'm not sure that should happen under normal circumstances. Should it?

  7. #7
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    Caylee's shorts & purple shirt photo

    Caylee's shorts & purple shirt photo
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by celticthyme; 10-11-2009 at 02:53 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by celticthyme View Post
    Caylee's shorts & purple shirt photo
    Have we ever been told when that video was taken?

  9. #9
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    Regarding the red fibers.......have we seen a description of the stuffed animals that CA disgarded because they "smelled like smoke"?? I wonder if one had the red fibers we are discussing. Perhaps in the form of a "tshirt" on a stuffed animal or somethig similar? I need to find that photo of her collection of stuffed animals and then see which ones are unaccounted for. Perhaps one of those stuffed animals that KW found in a bag that CA "had never seen before" ?
    Last edited by sleutherontheside; 10-11-2009 at 12:11 PM.

  10. #10
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    The skull did detach from the neck and torso, didn't it? I guess we don't know at what point after death this occured, but assuming it was after decomposition was well in progress, the shirt would have started to decompose as well. Not to be indelicate, but if the shirt was disintegrating rapidly and Caylee was no longer whole, then it'd make perfect sense that the shirt collar would still be a closed loop. The body of the shirt didn't have to ride up the torso, because a good portion of the shirt had either disintegrated or had separated from the stronger collar, IMHO. No head to fit over. It was basically a loop of material that slipped off the body during the process of decomposition.

    On the question on whether the shirt would be too small for her size--I doubt it. My 2.5 year old still has 12-18 month shirts that will fit, and 3Ts that are too small. Baby sizing is pretty imprecise. He's 2.5, quite tall for his age, and still fits comfortably into his size 24 month (shorter than 2T) clothing. Clothes are manufactured to fit a pretty big weight range at that age.
    Last edited by MomofBoys; 10-11-2009 at 12:11 PM.


  11. #11
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    You are right, Momofboys, there would be no need for the shirt to slip over the skull since the skull was perhaps already disarticulated. I guess my mind just didn't want to go there.
    Just my opinion anyway... cheers!

  12. #12
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    I would like to know when this photo of KC was taken and if this may have been a shirt in her trunk that was retrieved by CA.

    I realized I should have posted this on the duct tape thread but I will leave it here because it relates as well. I wonder what that pillow is made of?? Also.....notice the stuffed animal Caylee is holding in the photo with KC. It is barely visible, but is it a spiderman? Red shirt??
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by sleutherontheside; 10-11-2009 at 12:39 PM. Reason: Added additional thought.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Valhall View Post
    I have to admit I thought about that statement. But at the same time, this shirt is over in an area where ribs, the scapula and even part of the C1 vertebrae was located. Which implies all that made it's way over there en masse...or so it would seem. But how?

    This would require the skull disconnecting from the torso prior to animals dragging part of the remains away. And I'm not sure that should happen under normal circumstances. Should it?
    One of the reasons the investigators know that Caylee was disposed of on Suburban shortly after death is because the scapula and ribs and vertabrae were still held together by sinew and remaining flesh. There was enough tissue & sinew left that a portion of Caylee could be torn off by an animal as a chunk drug to another location leaving other parts of the body at the disposal site. Like on TLC when lions tear off and drag away portions of the Zebra in chunks. (sorry)

    Outside with the bugs and animals, in a tropical climate, Caylee would be reduced to bones within two weeks. (According to Dr. Michael Baden.) From that point on, animals couldn't drag whole chunks of body, it would have to be a bone at a time.

    MOO
    Last edited by Jolynna; 10-11-2009 at 01:06 PM.

  14. #14
    Wouldn't the white cloth with the purple strip be the Pooh blanket?

  15. #15
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    Regarding the comment "They haven't even found her clothes yet."........I can not remember for the life of me whether this was ever verified by more than just LP. If others in his group confirmed....did they confirm as they heard it themselves, or confirm they had been told by LP? THe more I recall the convo's with Lee about "think about places from when we grew up, and she's close to home, by the T etc....I do think she wanted that body found as a big FU to mom.

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