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  1. #1
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    Premeditated Murder #972

    Is there enough for a jury to convict on premeditated murder? Many feel the tape is the smoking gun that "proves " premeditation.

    Of course we have not seen the defense's case so we cannot deliberate like a jury would and opinions may change.

    But based on what we have seen to date, what do you think about premeditated murder and a conviction of same?

    ETA: please please stay on topic as best we can.
    Last edited by JBean; 10-13-2009 at 10:41 AM.

  2. #2
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    Morning JBean. If you want to delete my doctor question post I think I found a better thread for it. Never mind you created a new thread while I was typing.

    Now back to our regularly scheduled broadcast:

    Yes I feel that the murder was premeditated and that the duct tape is going to be major evidence proving as such. Now I am not stating that the evidence "we" have right now would be sufficient in a court of law as of yet. However the overwhelming amount of circumstantial evidence in this case has convinced me of Casey's guilt and to what extent that guilt is. With out trying to seem conceded I feel that a number of potential jurors would draw the same conclusions from the same evidence. Also given that a juror is allowed to use their own reasoning skills to determine a verdict. I see a jury using that to conclude Casey is guilty of murder one based on the total impact of the evidence.

    I also feel that we the public are still missing a good portion of evidence. Keeping in mind the state brought these charges before the body was actually found leads me to believe that the state must have more compelling evidence then what we have seen thus far. This evidence in my opinion would cover all the key elements of the murder charge as I don't see the SA going to trial in a high profile case with out it. Can I prove this....no you can't prove a negative.

    I also feel that Dr. G's testimony is going to be crucial in this case and personally feel she will say much the same thing as the ME in the Huck case. There is the non formal letter she wrote about the autopsy that has yet to be released as well. Also if Dr. G gives testimony to the fact that in her expert opinion the tape was the COD. Then that would constitute premed. The time it took to place the tape on the child is more then sufficient for premed according to Florida.

    Also we have yet to see the entomology reports ( I don't think that was released to the public yet?) and there is still some evidence out there still that is yet to be released. Further I would also argue that in terms of premeditation that Casey's actions can also be draw into question much the same as the People v. Scott case (my pet case).

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by countzero View Post
    Just finished reading the large doc released http://www.wftv.com/download/2009/1009/21252103.pdf

    On page 10426, of course at the end of this long doc, in a FBI letter dtd 3.03.09 there are three items I can't find the reports for.

    Specifically these are from OCSO Property form H-52099 and the three items are FBI Q220, Q221, and Q222.

    Q220 is - 2 swabs from the bottom of gas can #1 from the trunk of the car, the FBI is asked to look for decomp

    Q221 is - 2 swabs from the interior of the oil pan, the FBI is asked to look for decomp

    Q222 is - 2 swabs from the bottom of gas can #2 from the trunk of the car, the FBI is asked to look for decomp.

    Of course we know these are the two gas cans that KC "tossed" to GA on 6.24.08 according to GA.

    Anyhow, I found it strange that the FBI is being requested to do these swabs as late as March of this year.

    Can anyone clue me in. Or have these swabs being reported in another document. Thanks all. By the way, I tried to find these pages in a shorter downloaded doc, but I couldn't find one.
    Well dang if I didn't compose a reply to the other thread only to find it closed and this one opened and it was lost in cyberspace.

    Anyhow, I know it's bad form to quote myself. However, since leakage was discussed I am curious to know if the above could have been part of the SAs decision to go forward again with the DP. I still have not been able to find the FBI results for these three items.

    My thinking is IF decomp was found in/on the gas cans which were in the truck as well as in the oil pan part of the car then it would be premeditation along with the tape found attached to Caylee.

    JBean, if this does not belong here in this thread, please zap it away. Thanks.
    Last edited by countzero; 10-13-2009 at 11:59 AM.

  4. #4
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    The entomology reports could also be very crucial in determining premed as well. Based on the entomology reports they could in fact prove that Caylee died in the trunk of the car. Based on there being coffin flies and no presence of blow flies. That coupled with the duct tape in my opinion also points to a premeditated act. In the hot Florida sun leaving your child in the trunk would only yield one conclusion.

    The time it took and the act of placing a live child in the trunk knowing full well what would happen is more then enough time for premed. Then you have the time after the child was placed in the trunk to the time the child actually passed away.

    Given how horrific a death like that would be I could certainly see a jury opting for the DP. Just imagine in your mind. Poor Caylee who trusted her mother now sitting in the trunk of a car in the hot Florida sun her face covered with duct tape. The agony and terror of the situation. That I think would sway even the most stone hearted juror.

    The Greeks as an example used the Brazen Bull as a means of execution. It was a horrific way to die and the the screams of the victim could be heard with in the bull. The trunk of the car would have the same effect...only slower.
    Last edited by marspiter; 10-13-2009 at 11:37 AM. Reason: added brazen bull comment.

  5. #5
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    I know this is O/T, sorry, but just reading these descriptions of the possible COD of Caylee has me wanting to run to my daughter's pre-school, scoop her up in my arms, and never let her go. I think a jury will be smart enough to put all the pieces together to see this was a premeditated act. That monster will get hers.

  6. #6
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    Suppose for one moment that Caylee was still alive when Cindy called 911.

    By lying to the police about facts concerning finding Caylee, this could be considered premeditation, since Caylee in fact was later found dead on Suburban St.. Casey's aggravating negligence could be seen as premeditation, just as well as the fact that she didn't report her daughter missing for 31 days. Even "if" someone else murdered Caylee, by Casey's gross negligence her daughter DIED, and her lying about the facts surrounding her daughter being missing and in danger, proves that she wanted her to die. (Something like, oh well, someone took Caylee, but I'm not going to do anything to find her because I have La Bella Vida, if she dies, she dies, not my problem!)

    Isn't it true that if someone dies during the commission of a felony, any accomplice to the felony also gets charged with the murder? If Caseys' gross negligence of her child is a felony, and her daughter died as a result, wouldn't she be guilty of murder. Wouldn't accomplices to the gross negligence (anyone who helped lie to the authorities concerning facts or circumstances surrounding Caylee's disappearance) also be charged with murder? The medical examiner determined that homicide was the cause of death.
    Last edited by tweety933; 10-13-2009 at 12:09 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBean View Post
    Is there enough for a jury to convict on premeditated murder? Many feel the tape is the smoking gun that "proves " premeditation.

    Of course we have not seen the defense's case so we cannot deliberate like a jury would and opinions may change.

    But based on what we have seen to date, what do you think about premeditated murder and a conviction of same?

    ETA: please please stay on topic as best we can.
    AFAIK, the legal definition of "premeditation" varies by state.

    Would much appreciate anyone able to post it as defined in the State of Florida. TIA!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by tweety933 View Post
    Suppose for one moment that Caylee was still alive when Cindy called 911.

    By lying to the police about facts concerning finding Caylee, this could be considered premeditation, since Caylee in fact was later found dead on Suburban St.. Casey's aggravating negligence could be seen as premeditation, just as well as the fact that she didn't report her daughter missing for 31 days. Even "if" someone else murdered Caylee, by Casey's gross negligence her daughter DIED, and her lying about the facts surrounding her daughter being missing and in danger, proves that she wanted her to die. (Something like, oh well, someone took Caylee, but I'm not going to do anything to find her because I have La Bella Vida, if she dies, she dies, not my problem!)

    Isn't it true that if someone dies during the commission of a felony, any accomplice to the felony also gets charged with the murder? If Caseys' gross negligence of her child is a felony, and her daughter died as a result, wouldn't she be guilty of murder. Wouldn't accomplices to the gross negligence (anyone who helped lie to the authorities concerning facts or circumstances surrounding Caylee's disappearance) also be charged with murder? The medical examiner determined that homicide was the cause of death.
    Well, a guy in Florida who just recently beat his g.f.'s toddler to death-- on impulse. in a rage. Got charged w/ Murder I.

    Age of the victim is also an aggravating circumstance.

    IIRC in Florida, the death of a child by abuse constitutes pre-med, whether it existed or not.
    Last edited by Brini; 10-13-2009 at 01:03 PM.
    Age. Fac ut gaudeam

  9. #9
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    The following link to FL Supreme Court website contains jury instructions for various crimes including homicide and defines premeditation:

    http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/j...uctions.shtml#
    "Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices" - Voltaire

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BondJamesBond View Post
    AFAIK, the legal definition of "premeditation" varies by state.

    Would much appreciate anyone able to post it as defined in the State of Florida. TIA!
    "“Killing with premeditation” is killing after consciously deciding to do so. The decision must be present in the mind at the time of the killing. The law does not fix the exact period of time that must pass between the formation of the premeditated intent to kill and the killing. The period of time must be long enough to allow reflection by the defendant. The premeditated intent to kill must be formed before the killing.

    The question of premeditation is a question of fact to be determined by you from the evidence. It will be sufficient proof of premeditation if the circumstances of the killing and the conduct of the accused convince you beyond a reasonable doubt of the existence of premeditation at the time of the killing."

    BBM

    From Florida Standard Jury Instructions, page 115

    If this is insufficient, I can look up some cases that may provide more detail but it appears to me that the definition is deliberately ambiguous, leaving the jurors to determine.
    Opinion above.




    wftv link
    Casey's attorney said it's not in her best interest to tell what she knows about where Caylee is. "It does her no good to show her cards to give the prosecution any advantage they have to put her away for life," Baez said.
    How's that workin' for ya'?

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  11. #11
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    Here are aggravating factors by state. Including FL's provision of death of a child under age 12.


    http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/aggr...nishment-state
    Age. Fac ut gaudeam

  12. #12
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    FWIW...found this on the "Procedures..." thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post
    The 782.04 is "murder", the 1.) a. 1 designates "premeditated".

    1.) a. 2 looks like it's designating "felony" murder if I'm I reading the statute correctly.

    ETA: Might as well post the whole thing in an effort to understand:

    782.04 Murder

    (1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being:

    1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;
    2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
    a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
    b. Arson,
    c. Sexual battery,
    d. Robbery,
    e. Burglary,
    f. Kidnapping,
    g. Escape,
    h. Aggravated child abuse,
    i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
    j. Aircraft piracy,
    k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
    l. Carjacking,
    m. Home-invasion robbery,
    n. Aggravated stalking,
    o. Murder of another human being,
    p. Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person,
    q. Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism; or
    3. Which resulted from the unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., or opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user, is murder in the first degree and constitutes a capital felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082.
    (b) In all cases under this section, the procedure set forth in s. 921.141 shall be followed in order to determine sentence of death or life imprisonment.

    (2) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

    (3) When a person is killed in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:

    (a) Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
    (b) Arson,
    (c) Sexual battery,
    (d) Robbery,
    (e) Burglary,
    (f) Kidnapping,
    (g) Escape,
    (h) Aggravated child abuse,
    (i) Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
    (j) Aircraft piracy,
    (k) Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
    (l) Carjacking,
    (m) Home-invasion robbery,
    (n) Aggravated stalking,
    (o) Murder of another human being,(p) Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person, or
    (q) Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism,
    by a person other than the person engaged in the perpetration of or in the attempt to perpetrate such felony, the person perpetrating or attempting to perpetrate such felony is guilty of murder in the second degree, which constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

    (4) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated without any design to effect death, by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any felony other than any:
    (a) Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
    (b) Arson,
    (c) Sexual battery,
    (d) Robbery,
    (e) Burglary,
    (f) Kidnapping,
    (g) Escape,
    (h) Aggravated child abuse,
    (i) Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
    (j) Aircraft piracy,
    (k) Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
    (l) Unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., or opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user,
    (m) Carjacking,
    (n) Home-invasion robbery,
    (o) Aggravated stalking,
    (p) Murder of another human being,
    (q) Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person, or
    (r) Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism, is murder in the third degree and constitutes a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
    (5) As used in this section, the term "terrorism" means an activity that:
    (a)1. Involves a violent act or an act dangerous to human life which is a violation of the criminal laws of this state or of the United States; or
    2. Involves a violation of s. 815.06; and

    (b) Is intended to:


    1. Intimidate, injure, or coerce a civilian population;
    2. Influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
    3. Affect the conduct of government through destruction of property, assassination, murder, kidnapping, or aircraft piracy.

  13. #13
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    Lynch v. State, Nos. SC06-2233 & SC07-1246 (Fla. 2008):

    "...Johnson v. State, 969 So. 2d 938, 951 (Fla. 2007) ("Premeditation can be inferred from circumstantial evidence such as 'the nature of the weapon used, the presence or absence of adequate provocation, previous difficulties between the parties, the manner in which the homicide was committed, and the nature and manner of the wounds inflicted.' " (quoting Sochor v. State, 619 So. 2d 285, 288 (Fla. 1993))), cert. denied, 128 S.Ct. 2056 (2008)..." (emphasis added)

    Green v. State, 715 So. 2d 940, 943-44 (Fla. 1998) (quoting Coolen v. State, 696 So. 2d 738, 741 (1997):

    "...Premeditation is the essential element that distinguishes first-degree murder from second-degree murder. Coolen v. State, 696 So. 2d 738, 741 (Fla. 1997). Premeditation is defined as more than a mere intent to kill; it is a fully formed conscious purpose to kill. This purpose to kill may be formed a moment before the act but must also exist for a sufficient length of time to permit reflection as to the nature of the act to be committed and the probable result of that act..."

    Kilgore v. State, 688 So. 2d 895 (Fla. 1996), (holding standard jury instructions are sufficient to explain premeditation); Spencer v. State, 645 So. 2d 377, 382 (Fla. 1994)

    ETA: When no specific appellate court is listed, such as 5th DCA or 2nd DCA in a citation but instead it simply reads "(Fla. XXXX)" where XXXX = year, then it's a Florida Supreme Court case, such as most, if not all of the cases listed above.
    Last edited by lin; 10-13-2009 at 01:24 PM.
    Opinion above.




    wftv link
    Casey's attorney said it's not in her best interest to tell what she knows about where Caylee is. "It does her no good to show her cards to give the prosecution any advantage they have to put her away for life," Baez said.
    How's that workin' for ya'?

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  14. #14
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    Quoted from Williams v. State, No. SC04-857 (Fla. 2007) :

    "...

    As with the felony murder charge, if "a rational trier of fact could find the existence of the elements of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt, sufficient evidence exists to sustain a conviction." Pagan, 830 So. 2d at 803. With regard to the element of premeditation, this Court has stated:

    "Premeditation is defined as more than a mere intent to kill; it is a fully formed conscious purpose to kill." This purpose to kill must exist for such a time before the homicide "to permit reflection as to the nature of the act to be committed and the probable result of that act." Premeditation can be shown by circumstantial evidence. Whether the State's evidence fails to exclude all reasonable hypotheses of innocence is a question of fact for the jury. As this Court has stated:

    Evidence from which premeditation may be inferred includes such matters as the nature of the weapon used, the presence or absence of adequate provocation, previous difficulties between the parties, the manner in which the homicide was committed, and the nature and manner of the wounds inflicted.

    Green, 715 So. 2d at 944. Moreover, whether premeditation exists is a question of fact for the jury, but the jury is not required "to believe the defendant's version of the facts when the State has produced conflicting evidence."

    Perry v. State, 801 So. 2d 78, 84 (Fla. 2001) (citations omitted) (quoting Green v. State, 715 So. 2d 940, 943 (Fla. 1998), and Spencer v. State, 645 So. 2d 377, 381 (Fla. 1994)). This Court has also held that "[p]remeditation may be formed in a moment and need only exist for such time as will allow the accused to be conscious of the nature of the act he is about to commit and the probable result of that act." Boyd v. State, 910 So. 2d 167, 181 (Fla. 2005) (internal quotation marks omitted). Further, we have held that "the deliberate use of a knife to stab a victim multiple times in vital organs is evidence that can support a finding of premeditation." Perry, 801 So. 2d at 85-86.

    ..."

    (emphasis and font color change added)
    Opinion above.




    wftv link
    Casey's attorney said it's not in her best interest to tell what she knows about where Caylee is. "It does her no good to show her cards to give the prosecution any advantage they have to put her away for life," Baez said.
    How's that workin' for ya'?

    Please click here to donate to TES


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  15. #15
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    If the cases posted don't sufficiently explain, just let me know and I'll try to pull some others but expect it's just going to repeat what has already been posted. This appears to be very well settled Florida law.
    Opinion above.




    wftv link
    Casey's attorney said it's not in her best interest to tell what she knows about where Caylee is. "It does her no good to show her cards to give the prosecution any advantage they have to put her away for life," Baez said.
    How's that workin' for ya'?

    Please click here to donate to TES


    WARNING! EXTRA SPECIAL GRIEF CAUSES IRRITATION
    .

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