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Thread: Syringe in bottle contained traces of chloroform

  1. #976
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThoughtElf View Post
    Thank you. You rock!

    Q238.1 is the bottle, btw.

    Questions:
    1. (1st BBM above) - so they did test specifically for chloroform. Would this be standard to do knowing that control was in a control solution?2. (2nd BBM) - does the 5.04 retention rate tell us anything about the concetration? What does it tell us?
    3. (3rd BBM) - again - how does this relate to the concentration of chloroform.

    I think what we're asking is: Is there a concentration level that is above the norm of the control solutions used?
    Can you tell what the concentration level is?

    Thanks!
    That is my question too

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    Quote Originally Posted by carrie View Post
    Yes, they did. But when I looked at those pages it wasn't clear to me that it stated chloroform was in the bottle. There was a chart with some scientific graph or whatever. But, they also used controls with chloroform when testing.

    The part of the docs that seems to sum up the results does not say there was chloroform. Be back in a sec with the link. . . BRB
    Not sure if anyone answered the question yet. from hand written page #11526 (page 913 of 1765 from the pdf document from wftv.com)

    Chloroform was in the bottle and the syringe.


    http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21540603/detail.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalya View Post
    Hate to quote myself to bump my question, but I was hoping there was an easy answer to this.

    I've had to inject myself with steroids for my athsma (in the past). I'm just wondering if it could have been taken from someone with breathing problems that has to take home injections... grandmother, grandfather?
    Shalya, I could very well be off here but I think the type of steroid injections for asthma are usually some form of prednisone. The anabolic steroids that body builders use (and abuse) are entirely different. I think the chemical analysis would easily tell the two apart.

    ETA: This article says that the author believes testosterone increases asthma. http://www.anthropogeny.com/T%20DHEA%20Asthma.htm
    Last edited by ExpectingUnicorns; 11-07-2009 at 05:32 PM. Reason: ETA last search result.
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  7. #979
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leila View Post
    I think there's a lot more that hasn't been released. When I first learned of today's document dump, and the syringe, I immediately thought about a media report that was in the local media about a week or two after the announcement late last December that the remains found on December 11th were those of Caylee Anthony.

    In that media report, it stated that many investigators working on the Anthony case believed Caylee was deceased but felt her death was accidental. It was reported that after Caylee's remains were found, every one of those investigators who had previously thought her death to be accidental had now concluded that Caylee's death was a homicide.

    It became apparent that there was something at the scene where Caylee's remains were found that was definitive, something that made it readily apparent that Caylee's death was a homicide. There was a lot of speculation here on what sort of definitive evidence might have been found.

    Likely by the end of December 2008/early January 2009, the investigators knew the results of the tests on contents of the Gatorade bottle and syringe. IF there were fingerprints on the Gatorade bottle and/or syringe, and IF there was DNA on the Gatorade bottle, that is now known too.

    If any fingerprints other than Casey Anthony's, or DNA other than Casey Anthony's were found, there would have been another arrest in this case. But, there remains only one arrest, and one suspect, and that is Casey Anthony.
    Resp bolded by me...

    I really think the duct tape on Caylee's face was what made investigators veer sharply from accidental death to murder.
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    At first I was very worried about the possibility that the needle was taken from JG and used to frame him, however after more thinking...

    1) If she was planning on framing JG, I feel like she would have thrown his name out there from the very beginning. Remember when LA said in his depo that when he asked if Zanny was JG KC cracked up and said "No way." I feel like if she was planning on framing him she would have said "You really need to look into him more." It seemed the only person she kept telling her family to look for was ZFG.

    2) If JG was working as a cop at the time, don't they have them submit routine urine samples? Would he risk this?

    3) It seems KC would have been more of relieved when the news broke that Caylee's body was found. That would mean the syringe was found (w/ JG's prints and DNA on it) and finally cops would be looking into him more than her (in her own little mind that is).

    4) How STUPID would a person like JG have to be to dump a syringe with his prints on it at the same place he dumped the body? He was a cop with knowledge of crime scenes. KC was just an idiot. It seems way more likely that she would be the person to dump the "weapon" at the crime scene before he would.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalya View Post
    Hate to quote myself to bump my question, but I was hoping there was an easy answer to this.

    I've had to inject myself with steroids for my athsma (in the past). I'm just wondering if it could have been taken from someone with breathing problems that has to take home injections... grandmother, grandfather?
    No, it is not the same as anabolic steroids.

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  13. #982
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalya View Post
    Hate to quote myself to bump my question, but I was hoping there was an easy answer to this.

    I've had to inject myself with steroids for my athsma (in the past). I'm just wondering if it could have been taken from someone with breathing problems that has to take home injections... grandmother, grandfather?
    Here is some information on the difference between steroids used for asthma treatment (corticosteroids) and anabolic steroids...

    "Commercially produced corticosteroids are steroids that reduce inflammation. They are used to treat diseases that cause inflammation, including multiple sclerosis, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis and other autoimmune diseases. Corticosteroids are extremely important in the treatment of asthma. They also are used to treat leukemia and other cancers."

    "Anabolic steroids are male hormones or commercially produced chemicals identical to male hormones. When produced naturally by the body, they increase muscle mass and direct proteins to make muscle. Anabolic steroids are commonly taken by athletes to boost athletic performance and build muscle mass. Unfortunately, they can cause lasting damage, according to the National Institute on Drug Abuse."

    More info at link...

    http://kroger.staywellsolutionsonlin...ellness/1,2818

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    Thank you all so much for answering my question.
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    "A man never stands as tall as when he kneels to help a child." -Unknown
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    Caylee brought me, all of the other children bring me back. Support one another here, listen carefully to all opinions and be strong; we can't go wrong.


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  17. #984
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThoughtElf View Post
    Thank you. You rock!

    Q238.1 is the bottle, btw.

    Questions:
    1. (1st BBM above) - so they did test specifically for chloroform. Would this be standard to do knowing that control was in a control solution?
    It has nothing to do with a control. They took the liquid that they found in the bottle or syringe and analyzed it with a GC. The GC identified all the different compounds (not just the chloroform) that made up the sample. The way a GC works is it vaporizes the sample when it is injected and a carrier gas (something inert like Helium) carries the sample through a column. The column is packed with a stationary phase that will react with the different chemical species in the sample. Some will stick to the stationary phase or "stay on column" for longer that others. The chemicals that stay on the column longest are the ones that elute last...they have the highest retention time. The compounds that don't stick to the column very strongly will elute first and they will have a short retention time. After the eluents come off the column they go to the detector (in this case a mass spec was used... but there are other types of detectors). The GC separates a mixture into individual components... think of it like it's a huge tube packed with beads of decreasing size.... really tiny beads at the bottom and really big beads at the top. If you pour a sample of dirt from your yard into the top, the rocks and large clumps will get stuck in the top and the small grains of sand will pass all the way through. GC works the same way, except with GC work the sample will ALL eventually pass through instead of being permanently stuck (you use temperature to accomplish that part). The "control" you're talking about it a standard... look back at my post earlier about quantification. The standards are used to set up a calibration curve, are not in contact with the sample, are injected separately, and really have nothing to do with the unknown samples analysis (unless you're doing a method called "standard addition"....but thats way too complicated and not what we're talking about here).
    2. (2nd BBM) - does the 5.04 retention rate tell us anything about the concetration? What does it tell us?
    The retention time is exactly what it sounds like... how long the sample was retained by the stationary phase in the column. It's just a time that tells us how long the compound stayed on the column in the GC. Chloroform stayed on the column for 5.04 minutes before it was eluted and reached the detector (the mass spec).
    3. (3rd BBM) - again - how does this relate to the concentration of chloroform.
    So far we've figure out "what it is" (qualitative analysis) but I am still looking for the information I need to figure out "how much" (quantitative analysis). In the chromatographs, the area beneath the peak at retention time=5.04 is related to the concentration. We need to see the calibration curve to figure out the concentration of chloroform in the sample (unless I can find the info I need to figure it out with the MS data... I'm trying but I'm a little rusty... it's been a while so I'm reading up on it).

    I think what we're asking is: Is there a concentration level that is above the norm of the control solutions used? I have only been able to find the info that says that chloroform was present in the samples (based on interpretation of data from Q238.1 and Q240.1). I'm working on the concentration part of it.
    Can you tell what the concentration level is? Not yet, but I'm working on it. No promises, though.

    Thanks!
    My answers in red. Hope this helps some, sorry I don't have all the answers you need. I'll keep trying though.
    Last edited by DogMom2JoeAndWillie; 11-07-2009 at 06:07 PM. Reason: forgot to say which samples I was talking about.


  18. #985
    Quote Originally Posted by DogMom2JoeAndWillie View Post
    My answers in red. Hope this helps some, sorry I don't have all the answers you need. I'll keep trying though.
    Excellent post. Thank you so much for your hard work on this. Very much appreciated. It is very helpful.

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  20. #986
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    So the syringe in the bottle does NOT contain chloroform, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spqr View Post
    Not sure if anyone answered the question yet. from hand written page #11526 (page 913 of 1765 from the pdf document from wftv.com)

    Chloroform was in the bottle and the syringe.


    http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21540603/detail.html
    I am finding no where in this report where it states chloroform was detected in the syringe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BondJamesBond View Post
    IMHO...syringe in bottle of Gatorade posssibly still unrelated. Looks like a pre-purchased job like...



    ...that someone injected before/after going to the gym and tossed.

    Interesting to note that it appears they checked for lidocaine and pesticide.

    Ask yourself if you think Casey would place the cap back over the needle and put the syringe back in the packaging...

    Gatorade botte...anabolic steroid...
    I don't think it's related either. But there are some interesting things about the content of the bottle. Still, I really just think this is trash.

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  24. #989
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    Quote Originally Posted by DogMom2JoeAndWillie View Post
    For anyone who wants to take a look... on the following link at page 11578 (handwritten at bottom right) you can see that they analyzed Q238.1 with GC-MS. They used selective ion monitoring to look for ions of mass-to-charge ratios of 47, 83, and 85... which are the highest intensity peaks you'd expect to see when chloroform fragments...thats what the top three chromatographs show. Also, note that the chromatograph shows that chloroform eluted from the column at nearly the same retention time (about 5.04 min) regardless of which ion they selectively monitored for.
    The fourth chart is the mass spectrum for the compound that eluted at that particular retention time. This IS the mass spectrum for chloroform. This is how it's proven that (whatever sample Q238.1 is) chloroform was present in the sample that they analyzed. I can explain what the mass-to-charge ratios mean, also if anyone is interested but it isn't crucial to understanding the data we're discussing.

    Same applies for sample Q240.1 (again, don't have a list, so I'm not sure what it is) on page 11598.
    I also forgot to post the link...oops.

    http://http://www.cfnews13.com/uploa...1571-11670.pdf
    Thank you... I was seeing that too! I'm glad you posted this!!

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    Giving a toddler a shot. (About the Syringe) + info from my mom who is labtech.

    Now I am no doctor so I am hoping there is one on the boards who would be able to give their input on this. Based on what I know a child hates getting a shot and in some cases you literally have to hold the child down b.c they kick and scream.

    I hate even bringing this up but do you think Casey could have had help in this? Someone that helped her hold Caylee down or do you think she maybe bound her up with tape or rope so she couldn't move. I would think it would be hard to inject a toddler b.c sometime even the parent has to help hold the child down when they get a shot.

    Thoughts on this one?

    ETA: Just talked to my mom and she told me with a chloroform injection you would have to put it into the vain b.c of the fact its an anesthetic. She told me you would have to have some medical knowledge into that.
    Last edited by WillenFan21; 11-07-2009 at 06:18 PM.
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  27. #991
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    Oh goodness... responsibilities... blah!! Gotta run for a bit, but be back to answer any questions later on (I know there will be some, cause I am NOT good at explaining things and I only make sense half the time, LOL). Have fun, you guys!

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    When my kids had immunizations, I would have to hold my kids arms down with my two hands, cradling them, while the nurse does the injection. So how did Casey give her an injection, when you need probably both hands to do just that? You need octopus hands to hold the kid down AND to inject, if doing so alone. How did she do this? Sit on her and then inject???

    And yes, the thought of another person has crossed my mind, but then why hasn't that person come forward and given immunity to dish on her? Who could withstand the pressure and keep quiet this long? Who could hate that child as much as Casey? I dunno, I deep down think she acted alone, but how did she inject a 2 year old?
    Last edited by Crabcake23; 11-07-2009 at 06:14 PM.
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    [QUOTE=MADJGNLAW;4402782]Well my head is I just don't know how to read any of these doc's, unless they are in layman's terms. I went back over to the article and question why would they go into such detail about what was found if not true? I know the media makes mistakes....snipped

    Unfortunately, the media does not always check their sources in their 'rush' to scoop other channels. As an example - during the unfolding drama of the shooting in Orlando Channel 9 started reporting that 17 people were shot! We saw what happened when one of the local stations reported that the yellow object at the crime scene was a book. I still can't decide exactly what the reports are saying - and I have been following this thread closely. I have yet to see a local channel either back off the cloroform story or even try to explain it. I hope that by the time this thread runs it's natural course, we will know one way or another. I will say, I am not convinced this bottle/syringe is connected to the case. I hope I am wrong, as it would be another nail in KC's coffin - so to speak. Too many variables and not enough clear info from the reports for me to decide. I want to thank all the posters who are trying to decipher the info and put it into 'layman's terms for us.
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  32. #994
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedeviledadvocate View Post
    I think the GAS (Gator Ade/Syringe) in this case has a bad smell to it (like the rotting bag of garbage in the trunk). I think it is simply fodder for the media. The trace evidence for chloroform is measured in parts per trillion. If one part per trillion is normal, then 5 parts per trillion could be considered a high level by the media. More fodder for the media, high levels of chloroform found in the gatorade bottle, the syringe, and in the trunk. I do not think LE will pursue this GAS. I do not think LE will pursue Chloroform as a cause of death. I do think LE will try to use the traces of Chloroform found in the trunk to help trying to prove Caylee was actually in the trunk. I also think the bag of rotting garbage will make this harder to prove. Again though, I think the GAS in this case stinks. Just my opinion.
    Resp bold by me...

    Oh, great, now I'm getting confused about the things I thought I understood! Was there actually a "bag of rotting garbage" in the trunk? If possible, could you do a copy/paste of items in that bag, or (at worst) provide a specific link? I really thought I'd followed this subject carefully months ago, but evidently I didn't. TIA, DevilsAdvocate. Sorry to be a bother.
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  34. #995
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    Quote Originally Posted by trixi491 View Post
    At first I was very worried about the possibility that the needle was taken from JG and used to frame him, however after more thinking...

    1) If she was planning on framing JG, I feel like she would have thrown his name out there from the very beginning. Remember when LA said in his depo that when he asked if Zanny was JG KC cracked up and said "No way." I feel like if she was planning on framing him she would have said "You really need to look into him more." It seemed the only person she kept telling her family to look for was ZFG.

    2) If JG was working as a cop at the time, don't they have them submit routine urine samples? Would he risk this?

    3) It seems KC would have been more of relieved when the news broke that Caylee's body was found. That would mean the syringe was found (w/ JG's prints and DNA on it) and finally cops would be looking into him more than her (in her own little mind that is).

    4) How STUPID would a person like JG have to be to dump a syringe with his prints on it at the same place he dumped the body? He was a cop with knowledge of crime scenes. KC was just an idiot. It seems way more likely that she would be the person to dump the "weapon" at the crime scene before he would.
    Excellent points.
    • "Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth." Buddha

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  36. #996
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crabcake23 View Post
    When my kids had immunizations, I would have to hold my kids arms down with my two hands, cradling them, while the nurse does the injection. So how did Casey give her an injection, when you need probably both hands to do just that? You need octopus hands to hold the kid down AND to inject, if doing so alone. How did she do this? Sit on her and then inject???

    And yes, the thought of another person has crossed my mind, but then why hasn't that person come forward and given immunity to dish on her? Who could withstand the pressure and keep quiet this long? Who could hate that child as much as Casey? I dunno, I deep down think she acted alone, but how did she inject a 2 year old?
    Do you think maybe that is why casey used duck tape on her mouth?

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    Quote Originally Posted by starpatch View Post
    Do you think maybe that is why casey used duck tape on her mouth?
    Thing is Caylee would still be able to move around if her arms and legs weren't bound. But yeah it could have been used to make it so she couldn't make any noise.
    Last edited by WillenFan21; 11-07-2009 at 06:28 PM.
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    I just can't see Casey giving Caylee a shot. First of all it is hard to give a child a shot, most children (as all parents know) are scared to death of needles. Casey did the bare minimum with this crime, from where she disposed of the body to making up a stupid, unbelievable story about "Zanny the nanny" kidnapping Caylee. I can't see it, but I guess anything is possible, especially with this case.

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  41. #999
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    Quote Originally Posted by WillenFan21 View Post
    Thing is Caylee would still be able to move around if her arms and legs weren't bound. But yeah it could have been used to make it so she couldn't make any noise.
    Right, that's the worry. When my oldest was a baby, he was able to grab the syringe from the nurse as she was giving the injection! I held him as the nurse instructed, but in doing so, one arm was free. That free arm pulled the injection from his thigh and he was able to stab himself 2x with it before the nurse got it. The nurse actually got fired for that.

    So yeah, you really need to hold a little one down and get those arms pinned down to give a shot. I was even thinking that if Casey duct taped her hands together, but that wouldn't be enough, she'd still have to sit on her and use her free hands to inject her. It couldn't have been easy to do.
    • "Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth." Buddha

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    I don't think it was injected into Caylee, I feel she probably used the syringe to draw up what she thought she needed from the container it was in, and put it into the Gatorade, then applied it to her face with a cloth, to be inhaled. There is NO way Casey could find a vein on a 2yr old- it calls for skills and patience that she doesn't have.

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