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Thread: Syringe in bottle contained traces of chloroform

  1. #1201
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Eunice Burns View Post
    Chloroform on the computer
    Chloroform in the trunk
    Chloroform in a bottle
    Chloroform in a syringe (?)
    Chloroform in a conversation KC had w/ TMc
    "Win her over with chlorform"

    That's a lot of chloroform. What are the odds? Bookmakers, tell us!
    No disagreement there, that's for sure.. But I don't think the Body Farm's reports finding jives with the entomology report..which I believe later in the report reverts back to the 23-27th timeline in conclusion. Which if is the case, gives the SA a bit of difficulty. Is the Chlororform in the trunk accurate will be the first question.
    added: BF report states June 20-27 concluded
    Last edited by lizzysf; 11-08-2009 at 11:01 AM.

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  3. #1202
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    Unless I have read things wrong, the Disney bag that contained said Chloroform (possibly?) filled bottle, with a syringe in it, was about 1 foot away from Caylees skull.
    I just don't buy this kind of coincidence.

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  5. #1203
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    Sorry....Who is TMc?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Eunice Burns View Post
    It's great to have you here! No more lurking, please!
    OT: I have been following the Coleman and Olten cases; didn't follow this one from the start and so have spent lots of time playing catch-up. Awesome sleuthing to all involved. You are a peach to welcome me and I will contribute when I think I have good points to bring up.

    More to the point: While nothing I've seen conclusively links the newly released info to Casey, the "coinky-dinks" just seem to point in A Very Specific Direction. Based on the sleuthing here about her personality, it would seem totally appropriate (gah the limits of this language) for her to re-cap and even re-wrap the syringe, then bottle it, however it was used. Protect herself from nasty unintended sticks, and--and this is going waaaaay out on a psychology limb that I am not an expert on--in some weird way "bury" the evidence. Needle in cap, syringe in plastic, all in bottle, all conveniently disposed of where LE might conveniently find then and link them to someone else, related to Caylee's case or not.

    I am completely willing to retract all of the above in the event that it turns out this was not the case. And again, many thanks to all posters and for the welcome!

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  8. #1205
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    Quote Originally Posted by zadari View Post
    i really hope caylee didnt know what was happening to her but i just have such a feeling that she did ..
    I hope she didn't know either because it seems the last person she saw would be her own mother doing this to her. That makes it even more horrific, imo.
    Rest in Peace
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  10. #1206
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    Quote Originally Posted by MD MOMMY View Post
    IIRC..there is one receipt from Winn Dixie that we haven't seen. We've seen the Target receipts but there was 1 from Winn Dixie that wasn't there. I wonder if it contained some Gatorade? Could also be they didn't recover the receipt of course. I'm just wishful thinking.
    I'm very curious about the credit card purchases from JC Penney
    The ones Cindy will not allow to be seen....

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  12. #1207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imbackon View Post
    Unless I have read things wrong, the Disney bag that contained said Chloroform (possibly?) filled bottle, with a syringe in it, was about 1 foot away from Caylees skull.
    I just don't buy this kind of coincidence.
    Neither do I. Too many coincidences involving chloroform. MOO
    Rest in Peace
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  14. #1208
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    Quote Originally Posted by ynotdivein View Post
    OT: I have been following the Coleman and Olten cases; didn't follow this one from the start and so have spent lots of time playing catch-up. Awesome sleuthing to all involved. You are a peach to welcome me and I will contribute when I think I have good points to bring up.

    More to the point: While nothing I've seen conclusively links the newly released info to Casey, the "coinky-dinks" just seem to point in A Very Specific Direction. Based on the sleuthing here about her personality, it would seem totally appropriate (gah the limits of this language) for her to re-cap and even re-wrap the syringe, then bottle it, however it was used. Protect herself from nasty unintended sticks, and--and this is going waaaaay out on a psychology limb that I am not an expert on--in some weird way "bury" the evidence. Needle in cap, syringe in plastic, all in bottle, all conveniently disposed of where LE might conveniently find then and link them to someone else, related to Caylee's case or not.

    I am completely willing to retract all of the above in the event that it turns out this was not the case. And again, many thanks to all posters and for the welcome!
    And to help preserve any findings of blood/dna in the needle (jesse's?) so she caps it...and wraps it to protect the fingerprints, and bottles it with the Chloroform to connect the two.

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  16. #1209
    I am pretty sure the swamp water would have traces of chloroform. If that was swamp water in the bottle that is. I call it swamp water because the woods were full of trash and toxic things like tires, animal urine, animal waste, animal bodies. Dead bodies produce chloroform, swimming pools produce chloroform. That would be contaminated and dangerous water just like in a flood. No links. Sorry its out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beatrice View Post
    Sorry....Who is TMc?

    The female "bounty hunter" with the Padilla crew.
    -Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    -Senatus Populus Que Romanus

    -Why is it, if you help someone get away with a crime before they are arrested you are an accomplice...but if you help them get away with a crime after they are arrested you are a defense attorney?

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    Quote Originally Posted by notthatsmart View Post
    I am pretty sure the swamp water would have traces of chloroform. If that was swamp water in the bottle that is. I call it swamp water because the woods were full of trash and toxic things like tires, animal urine, animal waste, animal bodies. Dead bodies produce chloroform, swimming pools produce chloroform. That would be contaminated and dangerous water just like in a flood. No links. Sorry its out there.
    BBM:

    Just out of curiosity, how do swimming pools produce chloroform? That would not be something that would occur naturally. Would need and outside chemical, no?
    -Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    -Senatus Populus Que Romanus

    -Why is it, if you help someone get away with a crime before they are arrested you are an accomplice...but if you help them get away with a crime after they are arrested you are a defense attorney?

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  20. #1212
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    Quote Originally Posted by notthatsmart View Post
    I am pretty sure the swamp water would have traces of chloroform. If that was swamp water in the bottle that is. I call it swamp water because the woods were full of trash and toxic things like tires, animal urine, animal waste, animal bodies. Dead bodies produce chloroform, swimming pools produce chloroform. That would be contaminated and dangerous water just like in a flood. No links. Sorry its out there.
    They have analyzed the contents of the bottle and no mention is made of 'swamp water'.

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  22. #1213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theonly1 View Post
    Didn't most of us think the syringe in the bottle seemed menacing the first time we saw the dump scene photos released?

    No, to be honest, I thought it was just litter from some passing needle junkie and more likely related to the theft of the neighbor's ID which showed up as trash at the dump site than to Caylee.

    Now, I am thinking about the "testosterone" syringe and the "new to me" confirmed information of 2 cardboard toilet paper rolls being put into some unknown liquid in a Gatorade bottle. Then I thought that no needle junkie would go through all that trouble before disposal of a used needle. In fact, it is likely that they wouldn't toss away a perfectly good needle at all.

    Needle junkies steal syringes from wherever they can, so this syringe and gatorade bottle could be from any where.

    However, if - and I must say if because I can't understand all the reports, or even the dicussion of the reports - there was unusual amounts of chloroform in the bottle and/or the syringe, the probability of a coincidental Gatorade bottle/syringe combo as being random litter decreases dramatically. The chloroform suggests it is related (assuming the "chloroform" in the trunk is proven). If it was in a Disnsey bag, well - that's just sprinkles on the icing.

    And yes, my friend - if you researched how to make poison and your cousin, who lived with you, went missing for 31 days without you saying a word before anyone noticed, then the same poison you researched was found in your trunk and then a bottle and a syringe containing the poison was found with your cousin's scattered remains, you would be "the one" and in jail too. Unless it was a common poison, found in many places and products and used for both good and evil.

    Unleash the experts!

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  24. #1214
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    Just my humble opinion...it's way too much of a coincicence that we have chloroform attached to Crasey...on her pc, in her car and in a bottle and syringe in a bag of trash located a few feet away from CA.
    Even if Crasey didn't leave finger prints or DNA on the bottle and/or on the syringe...there may very well be something else in that bag that can link the syringe/bottle to Crasey or the Anthony home. Perhaps the knife was the same as the ones the Anthony's use in their home...and perhaps it was found in the bag as well. Or perhaps some of CA's clothing or a toy, blanket, bedding...etc. was also found in the bag...linking the stringe and bottle right back to Crasey.

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  26. #1215
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    Quote Originally Posted by skygirl View Post
    Too amazing.....

    Mind boggling amazing...the names/like names ie, Anthony, D.Casey, just a start....the whole near misses right by Caylees remains...no one complaining about the odor from the stink car??? No one seeing KC stopped on suburban. A man with a kidnapping record finding Caylee. (and we know he's clear on that, but still.) And all the gas cans! I'm tellin ya. Brother Lee may have taken a turn to the dark side of the force and sis followed. whatever. And even a freakin snake autopsy for kicks and giggles. It never ends.
    I know its ot. Sorry. But still waiting to see if they swabbed the bottom of that blue crate that was laying in the bottom of the trunk. Could have HDE on it.

    Thanks for the vent.
    Lovin this ws family!
    Re my bold...

    I think we need a "headbanger" thread for this case, listing only the "believe it or not" factual coincidences and incidences that drive us all crazy (but no commentary allowed.) Among my personal favorites is that Cain is the one who gets the call to investigate the site of Caylee's remains -- a lazy cop with a record of poor follow up who could have recovered the remains in August, when evidence would have been intact, but he was too lazy to walk a few yards to look where he's told to go.

    And then there's this chloroform conundrum, with a syringe that tests positive for....tada....testosterone of all things.
    Hawk. My BFF

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  28. #1216
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    Quote Originally Posted by notthatsmart View Post
    The cops around here just take a copy of the barcode around to stores and find out where it was purchased. I am sure they did that.

    I guess its time for me to look at the trunk trash bag stuff and see if anyone Casey knew drank cool blue gatorade.
    Someone other than Casey you mean? What makes you think it would not be Casey's?
    Last edited by ZsaZsa; 11-08-2009 at 12:42 AM.

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  30. #1217
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    And then there's Kronk, who although certain he saw a kid's skull, just lets it all slide until December after being blown off by a cop.

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  32. #1218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valhall View Post
    Okay, guys, I've got a big problem with this. Yes, the overall summary report made in June states chloroform was detected in the syringe via the HS-GC/MSD (PI/EI) method. But no where else in these reports is that substantiated. The summary report for the HS-GC-MSD is on page 940 of the uber pdf and it does not list chloroform. Pages 1039 and 1153 are the GC-MS(PI/EI) summaries and it is not listed there.

    Further to that, when you look at the individual test results for 240.1.1 - chloroform is not being designated.

    Sorry, but something's just not right here.
    While I haven't gotten through all the documents, I can explain where I found that the chloroform was found in BOTH samples. I posted a while back to explain the data/results that the chromatographs and mass spectra are showing. I can't point you to a page that says "we found this in here and this is why" but I CAN tell you where to find the data... if you know how to read the chromatographs, understand mass spectra, and know a bit about ion fragmentation you should be able to easily interpret the results given the charts (and I'd love to have another chemist to verify my explanation of the results). I've quoted my original post, where I listed an interpretation of the results, gave a link to the data, and also provided page numbers for reference.


    For anyone who wants to take a look... on the following link at page 11578 (handwritten at bottom right) you can see that they analyzed Q238.1 with GC-MS. They used selective ion monitoring to look for ions of mass-to-charge ratios of 47, 83, and 85... which are the highest intensity peaks you'd expect to see when chloroform fragments...thats what the top three chromatographs show. Also, note that the chromatograph shows that chloroform eluted from the column at nearly the same retention time (about 5.04 min) regardless of which ion they selectively monitored for.
    The fourth chart is the mass spectrum for the compound that eluted at that particular retention time. This IS the mass spectrum for chloroform. This is how it's proven that (whatever sample Q238.1 is) chloroform was present in the sample that they analyzed. I can explain what the mass-to-charge ratios mean, also if anyone is interested but it isn't crucial to understanding the data we're discussing.

    Same applies for sample Q240.1 (again, don't have a list, so I'm not sure what it is) on page 11598.
    I also forgot to post the link...oops.

    http://http://www.cfnews13.com/uploa...1571-11670.pdf
    Also, would you mind posting a link to the quantitative data? I've not looked VERY hard, but haven't run across it yet. I noticed that you said the levels were 10ppb and it'd really help me out to have a link to follow! TIA

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  34. #1219
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Eunice Burns View Post
    I don't know what to think, honestly. I like the entomology thread, that feels like a picnic in comparison! But, let's play a game of what if.....

    What if you did leave all that stuff next to the body?
    What if you wanted to implicate someone else? Someone who had used the syringe and whose fingerprints were on it?

    I admit, it's crazy. And I also admit that beyond being thoroughly confused, I am suffering from some sort of mental deficiency from reading this entire thread and trying to understand. Maybe it's from all the chloroform.
    This is just par for this case----when possible evidence is finally discovered, the fact that it was discovered makes us doubt it could possibly be evidence because it was where it was.

    I have to take a long break from this case very soon. <demented laugh>
    Hawk. My BFF

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  36. #1220
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    About chloroform... you could probably detect it in ANY sample if the detection limit for your instrument was low enough. I've done a presentation on tandem-MS-MS analysis of VOC's (volatile organic compounds) in breath samples and they were able to detect chloroform (very very VERY low concentrations.... but it was still detected).
    This may help to clear things up a bit..."Volatile" means that it evaporates easily... and you have to remember that just because something evaporates doesn't mean that it disappears. Law of conservation of mass... matter can not be created or destroyed, only changes forms... it may be volatile (evaporate) but that doesn't mean that it ceases to exist. Hope this makes sense and helps.

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  38. #1221
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    Another thought...Crasey could have gotten that syringe from any number of the partys she attended (to search for her daughteer). If she steals checks from friends...she could easily snoop in a medicine cabint, bedroom...etc. for some goods...and she very well may have helped herself to a syringe that she stumbled on while at a party. Anyone of the beefcakes she hung out with could have been injecting testosterone...

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  40. #1222
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZsaZsa View Post
    Someone other than Casey you mean? What makes you think it would not be Casey's?
    Maybe b/c 99% of her things were stolen from others LOL? Just kidding, well not really.
    A Mother's love is a lifelong commitment
    to selflessness
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  42. #1223
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    Quote Originally Posted by DogMom2JoeAndWillie View Post
    I've quoted my original post, where I listed an interpretation of the results, gave a link to the data, and also provided page numbers for reference.
    DogMom, you are simply AWESOME. Thanks for the time and energy you are giving to this case.

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  44. #1224
    Quote Originally Posted by spqr View Post
    BBM:

    Just out of curiosity, how do swimming pools produce chloroform? That would not be something that would occur naturally. Would need and outside chemical, no?
    This comes out to be a matter of interpretation . I read that if you get out of a swimming pool and wipe your arms off onto the seat of your car, there will be traces of chloroform on the seats. Perhaps wet towels thrown in a trunk. A bathing suit. I also read there are traces of chloroform in ground water. And of course if you think about it. All the chemicals that we produce come from mother earth. ( not sure about teflon) I think that we are going to find that chloroform is in all kinds of things. And since I state that as my interpretation, I also state it as my opinon.

    ps could also be in febreeze but I heard their ingrediants are secret.

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  46. #1225
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Eunice Burns View Post
    Wait. On pg. 10459 of NH's forensic entomology report he states....

    "These conditions imply that remains were removed earlier in this earlier interval (June 19-22) rather than later (June 23-27)." Pg 10459 (BBM)

    That is but a snippet of the section, but when I read that......I immediately thought that it actually dovetails w/ the air sample report of 2.6 days...

    Unless I made an error and reached the wrong conclusion. I will have to go back and look at the pertinent page.....
    Entomology conclusion.. the body was removed from the car between June 20-27.

    http://www.clickorlando.com/download...6/21539770.pdf

    Meaning... at minimum 4 days, max 11 days in the trunk.. Body farm report 2.6 days. Yes, close.... But I do believe it wasn't until later that she dumped her body. (gas can incident on the 24th)...which would be 8 days. She reports to Amy June 27th that she got rid of the dead squirrel plastered to her car. So how accurately do the two really dovetail together? And how accurate is the Chloroform finding in the same report? I am sooo on the fence with the Chloroform issue.
    Last edited by lizzysf; 11-08-2009 at 10:57 AM.

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