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Thread: Evidence subject to Frye - *UPDATED* 2011.05.09 (ATTN: ALL ORDERS IN!)

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turnadot View Post
    However, IIRC, Cindy, through her nursing has experienced the smell of human decomp; she had a point reference.

    And no, I don't think a juror who has never smelled a dead human body before will relate the smell to human decomp. But I also think it would be unconscionable to have the jury smell it, because it "hangs" in your nose - for days and days and can make a person physically ill.

    There's plenty of evidence to convict without making a jury smell the trunk.

    I'm not an expert but knew the minute I smelled it what it was. I think you find many people will agree that it is unmistakeable when you smell it the first time. I agree with the jury not smelling the trunk. If it were necessary for them to see the car it would have to be done at the end of the day so the jury could return to their room and shower if necessary. But I think after three years the smell would not be as strong but would still be recognizable.

    My guess is defense would determine if a visit were necessary. I don't think they want that to happen. jmo

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  3. #152
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    Nums24 has just posted this in today's news.


    Jerry Deming, Orange County Sheriff's - Amended Emergency Motion for Protective Order to Prevent Yuri Melich from Testifying at this week's Hearings:

    http://www.wesh.com/pdf/27279722/det...=casey+updates


    What the heck is Baez up to now and why would he need Yuri Melich at the Frye hearings?

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  5. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by LambChop View Post
    I'm not an expert but knew the minute I smelled it what it was. I think you find many people will agree that it is unmistakeable when you smell it the first time. I agree with the jury not smelling the trunk. If it were necessary for them to see the car it would have to be done at the end of the day so the jury could return to their room and shower if necessary. But I think after three years the smell would not be as strong but would still be recognizable.

    My guess is defense would determine if a visit were necessary. I don't think they want that to happen. jmo
    I'm not an expert either, but I've written plenty of crime fiction and spoken to heaps of people who have had the unfortunate experience of finding a dead body; hidden in the bushes, under a car, in a garage - none of those people related the smell to a dead human - only that the smell made them sick and was like nothing they had ever smelled before. But I'm certainly willing to concede there are people who just knew instantly they were smelling a dead body and I just haven't met them yet.

    The smell may not be as strong after three years, but I still believe it would be unusually cruel to make a jury sniff the trunk, because even if it's not as strong, it's a smell that lingers with you. With the added knowledge that the body was an innocent baby, it will really screw with the juries heads, imo. Those poor people are going to have to endure so much already. Making them smell the decomp of a dead baby is crossing an ethical line.

    Of course these are just my opinions. I'm not an expert on anything at all, so there you go.


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  7. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by logicalgirl View Post
    Nums24 has just posted this in today's news.


    Jerry Deming, Orange County Sheriff's - Amended Emergency Motion for Protective Order to Prevent Yuri Melich from Testifying at this week's Hearings:

    http://www.wesh.com/pdf/27279722/det...=casey+updates


    What the heck is Baez up to now and why would he need Yuri Melich at the Frye hearings?
    That link isn't working...

    ETA: I found it- Baez is being a jerk as usual, trying to mess with YM. Apparently he wants to tie up YM for the three days of the hearings, and YM has other work to do. so the OCSO have tried to negotiate with JB as to setting times when he's actually needed, or having him on-call but Baez doesn't seem to have learned his lesson and is still acting like an azz.
    Last edited by ZsaZsa; 03-22-2011 at 12:36 PM.

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  9. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by logicalgirl View Post
    Nums24 has just posted this in today's news.


    Jerry Deming, Orange County Sheriff's - Amended Emergency Motion for Protective Order to Prevent Yuri Melich from Testifying at this week's Hearings:

    http://www.wesh.com/pdf/27279722/det...=casey+updates


    What the heck is Baez up to now and why would he need Yuri Melich at the Frye hearings?
    It doesn't seem to be to prevent him from testifying..they just want to know when he will be called so he doesn't waste day after day waiting. JB told him he had to show up the first day and see how testimony progresses. Shocker.

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  11. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberry View Post
    It doesn't seem to be to prevent him from testifying..they just want to know when he will be called so he doesn't waste day after day waiting. JB told him he had to show up the first day and see how testimony progresses. Shocker.
    LOL, Baez, because a detective has nothing better to do than sit around all day waiting to be called, right?

    Maybe Baez just assumes everyone else has the same work ethic as he does.

    Take that as you will

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  13. #157
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    Um - I don't know how to fix that - I just pasted it from Today's News because I thought WTH?

    Maybe someone else knows how or it came in a tweet to Nums24?

    The actual link re the motion on the News works though because I read it.

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  15. #158
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    But, what would Yuri be testifying about at a Frye Hearing? Yes, this is behavior from Baez - but what does he want Yuri there for?

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  17. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turnadot View Post
    I'm not an expert either, but I've written plenty of crime fiction and spoken to heaps of people who have had the unfortunate experience of finding a dead body; hidden in the bushes, under a car, in a garage - none of those people related the smell to a dead human - only that the smell made them sick and was like nothing they had ever smelled before. But I'm certainly willing to concede there are people who just knew instantly they were smelling a dead body and I just haven't met them yet.

    The smell may not be as strong after three years, but I still believe it would be unusually cruel to make a jury sniff the trunk, because even if it's not as strong, it's a smell that lingers with you. With the added knowledge that the body was an innocent baby, it will really screw with the juries heads, imo. Those poor people are going to have to endure so much already. Making them smell the decomp of a dead baby is crossing an ethical line.

    Of course these are just my opinions. I'm not an expert on anything at all, so there you go.

    IIRC everyone who has actually smelled this car has said the same thing- it smells like human decomposition..... including ICA's family.

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  19. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by logicalgirl View Post
    But, what would Yuri be testifying about at a Frye Hearing? Yes, this is behavior from Baez - but what does he want Yuri there for?
    Who knows? Witness to the cadaver dogs maybe. I can't even begin to crawl into his head.

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  21. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by logicalgirl View Post
    But, what would Yuri be testifying about at a Frye Hearing? Yes, this is behavior from Baez - but what does he want Yuri there for?
    Probably doesn't need him at all,but just thinks it's amusing to tie him up for several days and keep him hanging around. SSDD.

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  23. #162
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    Maybe Yuri is an expert on the smell of decomp? Or Baez is going after Yuri because Baez is afraid he is?

    I wish we had Scamperoo's icon that is a smiley constantly banging on an ignore button. I think I'm going to need it a lot in the time up to the trial.

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  25. #163
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    Is it possible he is calling him as a witness so he cant sit in the court room? Nothing would surprise me with them.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth

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  27. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by logicalgirl View Post
    Maybe Yuri is an expert on the smell of decomp? Or Baez is going after Yuri because Baez is afraid he is?

    I wish we had Scamperoo's icon that is a smiley constantly banging on an ignore button. I think I'm going to need it a lot in the time up to the trial.
    He is a detective of decomposition. I did notice at the bond hearing he testified that the odor was one of "decomposition" and some people noted that he did not say "human decomposition."

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  29. #165
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    Of course I cannot find an exact post where she opines this, but AZlawyer does seem pretty sure that the jury will not be taken on a field trip to smell the car. Here's a post where she addresses the odor--will keep looking for the one in particular I'm thinking of where she outlined her reasons specifically why IHO the jury's noses won't get near the car:

    Quote Originally Posted by AZlawyer View Post
    LE is expected to preserve the evidence without being asked, and the SA may not be permitted to use certain evidence if other evidence is not preserved. However, in this case there are some obvious questions, including (1) was the smell of the garbage "evidence" at all, and (2) is it possible to "preserve" a smell anyway? LE trapped and tested the gasses emitting from the trunk liner, and also trapped and tested the air from the trash bag. LE still has the can containing a piece of the trunk liner, but as JB's motion points out, that can doesn't really "smell like the trunk" at this point--it smells like the gasses that have emitted from that little piece of the trunk liner. So LE really didn't, and couldn't, "preserve" the trunk smell. In which case, why would anyone expect LE to "preserve" the trash bag smell?

    JB's motion seems to assume that the SA intended to have the jury smell the can containing the bit of trunk liner as "evidence" of the decomp smell. I personally doubt that was the strategy. I suspect that the evidence of the smell was and is going to be the testimony of Yuri, the tow yard guy, Cindy and George. Similarly, all those same people can testify about the smell of the trash.



    The jury would not get to hear testimony from the bond hearing. Just because something was allowed at the bond hearing does not mean it has to be allowed at trial.

    IIRC, JB was asking to exclude ALL references to the smell. I assume that includes Yuri's opinion, expert or not.
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  31. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberry View Post
    He is a detective of decomposition. I did notice at the bond hearing he testified that the odor was one of "decomposition" and some people noted that he did not say "human decomposition."
    Yes, you are right - I remember that also.

    However, I wish Baez would give up his grudge against Yuri Melich. YM is far too clever and knowledgeable for Baez to box him in.

    "Could you define human decomp for me Mr. Baez" - LOL - I love the way Yuri answers him!

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  33. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZsaZsa View Post
    IIRC everyone who has actually smelled this car has said the same thing- it smells like human decomposition..... including ICA's family.
    I've not disputed that; I just think a jury shouldn't be made to smell it. And my experience is that it's a gamble on whether or not a person will instantly know what they're smelling is a dead human - I've never interviewed anyone who did and I've interviewed a lot of people, but that doesn't mean they aren't out there. The real issue for me is I think making a jury smell the trunk would cross an ethical line. But it's neither here nor there because it comes down to judicial proceedings and HHJP may disagree with me. That's fine. He's the expert on these matters, not me.

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  35. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turnadot View Post
    I'm not an expert either, but I've written plenty of crime fiction and spoken to heaps of people who have had the unfortunate experience of finding a dead body; hidden in the bushes, under a car, in a garage - none of those people related the smell to a dead human - only that the smell made them sick and was like nothing they had ever smelled before. But I'm certainly willing to concede there are people who just knew instantly they were smelling a dead body and I just haven't met them yet.

    The smell may not be as strong after three years, but I still believe it would be unusually cruel to make a jury sniff the trunk, because even if it's not as strong, it's a smell that lingers with you. With the added knowledge that the body was an innocent baby, it will really screw with the juries heads, imo. Those poor people are going to have to endure so much already. Making them smell the decomp of a dead baby is crossing an ethical line.

    Of course these are just my opinions. I'm not an expert on anything at all, so there you go.

    BBM - I agree 100%. I can't even imagine. They are going to be viewing pictures of Caylee that we will never get to see. They will see the pictures of Caylee's remains as they were found... duct tape and all. It's going to stay with them for the rest of their lives. I think the totality of everyone smelling that car and their intial reactions, no matter what Cindy and George say now, will be enough for a jury to understand that the smell was that of decomposition. The cadaver dogs alerting to the decomposition simply backs up these intial reactions. I don't know if the air samples will come in, but if the hair banding comes in (I think it will), I think it will be enough for the jury to understand that Caylee was, in fact, decomposing in that trunk.

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  37. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by LolaMoon08 View Post
    BBM - I agree 100%. I can't even imagine. They are going to be viewing pictures of Caylee that we will never get to see. They will see the pictures of Caylee's remains as they were found... duct tape and all. It's going to stay with them for the rest of their lives. I think the totality of everyone smelling that car and their intial reactions, no matter what Cindy and George say now, will be enough for a jury to understand that the smell was that of decomposition. The cadaver dogs alerting to the decomposition simply backs up these intial reactions. I don't know if the air samples will come in, but if the hair banding comes in (I think it will), I think it will be enough for the jury to understand that Caylee was, in fact, decomposing in that trunk.
    Agree - and hasn't AZ or Joypath or one of our experts already stated there is no way the jury would be asked to smell the trunk because they have no previous "reference" to know what they were smelling was "human decomp" and could only understand it was something "awful".
    Last edited by logicalgirl; 03-22-2011 at 01:15 PM.

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  39. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by logicalgirl View Post
    Yes, you are right - I remember that also.

    However, I wish Baez would give up his grudge against Yuri Melich. YM is far too clever and knowledgeable for Baez to box him in.

    "Could you define human decomp for me Mr. Baez" - LOL - I love the way Yuri answers him!
    Maybe he wants a re-do!!

    I wonder how GA and CA will handle all the testimony about odor, and plant growth through bones.

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  41. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZsaZsa View Post
    That link isn't working...

    ETA: I found it- Baez is being a jerk as usual, trying to mess with YM. Apparently he wants to tie up YM for the three days of the hearings, and YM has other work to do. so the OCSO have tried to negotiate with JB as to setting times when he's actually needed, or having him on-call but Baez doesn't seem to have learned his lesson and is still acting like an azz.
    Especially after the way YM totally thwarted/publicly spanked JB and his futile attempts to pin him down on the stand during the evidentiary hearings.


    Define suspicious.

    JB is so immature.

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  43. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberry View Post
    Maybe he wants a re-do!!

    I wonder how GA and CA will handle all the testimony about odor, and plant growth through bones.
    They won't handle it at all. Either Judge Perry will make sure they are not allowed to be in the courtroom, or if they are allowed, they will walk out of the courtroom.

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  45. #173
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    Another post where AZ opines on the smell/odor analysis, last line BBM:

    Quote Originally Posted by AZlawyer View Post
    No, no, I just think the Body Farm odor analysis is likely to be tossed out. Actually I sort of hope it will be tossed out because I don't think it's THAT important to the State's case, but I think it will make a great appeal issue if HHJP lets it in.

    IMO the science behind the odor analysis is fascinating and quite likely to be valid, but the database of chemicals identified as "decomp" chemicals has not been subject to the kind of peer-reviewable and extensive validation testing necessary to determine whether those chemicals actually indicate the presence of human decomposition. In other words, there's no question that the chemicals were THERE--the question is what they MEAN. Single comparisons like "we found some of the same chemicals in this one other case of a decomposing child in a trunk" are great for developing a HYPOTHESIS to be tested but are not sufficient for drawing a scientific CONCLUSION to be used to convict someone of murder.

    Wasn't the motion to exclude all mention of the "smell" a separate motion? I think that motion will be denied. The fact that someone who has smelled human decomp before recognized the same smell in Casey's trunk is highly relevant and is not "scientific" evidence subject to a Frye analysis.
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  47. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZsaZsa View Post
    That link isn't working...

    ETA: I found it- Baez is being a jerk as usual, trying to mess with YM. Apparently he wants to tie up YM for the three days of the hearings, and YM has other work to do. so the OCSO have tried to negotiate with JB as to setting times when he's actually needed, or having him on-call but Baez doesn't seem to have learned his lesson and is still acting like an azz.
    Mr Melich really did quite an impressive job of thwarting Jose in his line of questioning at the last hearing. Too bad Jose seems to have forgotten his "sincere apology" to the prosecution. He really does appear to take things personally, and want to go for the jugular (Kathi B.)
    Last edited by Oakley; 03-22-2011 at 01:29 PM.

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  49. #175
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    Watergirl, just read your post upthread now. Funny, we said essentially the same thing!

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