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Thread: British student murdered in Perugia, Amanda Knox convicted #2

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    British student murdered in Perugia, Amanda Knox convicted #2

    Quote Originally Posted by dgfred View Post
    Tizzel, Is your position that everything is a conspiracy vs AK?

    What is your position on her 2 page letter (still accusing Patrick), her e-mails
    home and the mixed blood spots around the cottage with AK and MKs DNA?

    Just curious of whether you think she is innocent, or are just playing devil's advocate.
    No, I don't think it began as a conspiracy against Amanda. I think it turned into one after LE had already leaked all their "damning" evidence against her to the press and it was too late to save face by the time RG came into the picture. I feel the prosecution invented theories after this.

    What 2 page letter are you referring to where she's still accusing Patrick? The way I see it, it's a very plausible that she was coerced into implicating PL. While PL is said to be very popular/famous throughout Perugia, it doesn't mean LE loves him. They may have wanted him implicated and thus suggested it. I'm only saying it's POSSIBLE.
    As far as the emails home, I saw nothing implicating her in the one I read. As far as the mixed DNA....they were roommates, it happens.

    No, I'm not playing devil's advocate. I'm trying to get to the real facts and real evidence. I don't feel I've seen enough evidence to prove Amanda's or Raf's guilt. And that's MHO.

    Quote Originally Posted by dgfred View Post
    Could you elaborate on what post seal their innocence in your opinion?

    Or better yet what evidence/facts support your position?
    I don't have to take the same stance on a case as you do nor do I have to explain why I feel the way I do. I just do. I have posted plenty of links supporting my position.

    Or am I supposed to take the word of the people in these links that A&R are guilty? No thanks.

    4 Page report with courtroom testimony of "witnesses"....
    Homeless Man Puts Knox Near Crime Scene
    http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=7197242&page=1

    I wonder if any of these "witnesses" are Guede associates that might have a vested interest in A&R being convicted. I wonder if their DNA, fingerprints, footprints and such have been taken....Again, possible.

    and this...
    3 Page report with courtroom testimony of "witness"....
    Shopkeeper Says He Saw Knox After Murder
    http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=7140361&page=1

    Took this guy a year to come forward with his "witness" testimony, and only after the urging of his JOURNALIST friend. Weird.
    Last edited by Tizzle; 12-10-2009 at 01:36 AM.

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    British student murdered in Perugia, Amanda Knox convicted #2

    Please continue here.

    Thread 1



    Salem

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    Carried over from previous thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
    Evidently the entire courtroom was doing something other than listening to the defense. I'll take what she says with a huge grain of salt. If all of this had been going on I'd think at least one credible news source would back it up. For now it's just her word. The word of somebody who takes Amanda at her word.
    I think it is a little unfair to imply this person is a "loser." I don't know if I'd ever 100% give up on one of my close friends, even in the face of damning evidence. Obviously this is tough for everyone involved, and just because they choose to believe someone they've known closely, for perhaps many years, over some jurors/prosecutors, etc... they've never met, does not make them a loser in any sense.

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    @ Tizzle- It is not that I want to know why you don't agree with MY position... I want to know why you argue against it, but do not have any evidence of innocence.

    "I just do" is not really a fair answer and does make it look as you are playing devil's advocate.

    *The two page letter verified what she had said before about Patrick but it claimed she wasn't sure whether it was a dream or what.

    *If you can not find any discrepancies in her email then I suggest you look for omitions... which there are quite a few. Note when she writes that they called the police.

    *Media links do not help if the evidence was not used in court. The shop keeper wasn't used because he had no proof for example.
    Last edited by dgfred; 12-09-2009 at 01:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by padngton View Post
    Isn't that almost like conceding defeat then? Let's take the kid and run...would parents really want their daughter wearing an "assasin's mask" for the rest of her life because they didn't think she could beat the charges in a court of law - even in Italy, who, in their opinion, sacrificed one of their own just to make sure they got the little American girl - oh boo hoo!! As a parent, I would think it would be important - almost detrimental - to facing the music(jury) and clearing one's good name - in order not to wear that "mask..."
    I think AK's parents are heartbroken. I'm sure they are full of "If only this..." and "If only that... things would have turned out differently". But as AK's mother says in the interview, it doesn't really matter because "this" and "that" didn't happen.

    You make a mistake - you own up to it and accept the consequences - come what may - apparently the jury (when they weren't too busy sleeping, as "Friends of Amanda" have suggested) was privy to more than what we as bystanders were/are and they felt there was something to warrant a guilty verdict - which I do too...and not just simply guilt by association - which DOES happen in American courts, btw....
    Yes, the jury was there for the entire trial and rendered a verdict. That is something to consider for anyone who thinks AK's "innocence" is so obvious.

    At the same time, however, we should remember that in nearly every case of wrongful conviction (and there are hundreds of such cases in the U.S. alone that have been definitely proven using DNA, etc.), there was a jury who convicted the defendant. Trial by jury may be the best system (I think so), but juries aren't infallible.

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    The homeless man verified that he was there that night by supporting testimony about a disabled vehicle and telling his friends (THAT NIGHT) about his 'seeing' the three lunatics with knives. So you can believe him or not... but there is plenty of other evidence such as the blood spots with AKs DNA and MKs blood mixed together.
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    As I said, fred, I've posted many links backing my position. All you need to do is go back and look. The "evidence of innocence" is in the lack of actual evidence, IMO.

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    It really doesn't matter what we think...this happened in Italy..and they found her guilty

    I don't have a drop of Italian blood in me but I find it highly offensive to blame Italy or act as if their court system is flawed just because she is American

    they found her guilty...they have appeals...and that's it

    as for Germany...they would have sent her back to Italy...the EU of today means that all the countries in Europe pretty much are on the "same page" in regards to crime

    the only place they have a problem with is sending people back the US in capital cases...cause none of their countries has the death penalty

    anytime someone manages to kill someone in the US and get back to Europe (Mexico/South America...really most anywhere) or go to Europe, our prosecutors have to "take the death penalty off the table" and sign agreements that our courts will impose a maximum of life in prison

    That has happened various times...our states do sign off on that...and honor it..otherwise we would never be able to extradite people from Europe

    Frankly IF the state dept wastes one penny of my tax dollars on this case I will be furiious..this is NOT a political case, Amanda was not a political prisoner or a diplomat

    maybe some Americans are so stupid that we need a big warning on our passports "you are now leaving United States of America and subject to the laws of other countries"

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    'Lack of evidence' is not equal to 'blind to the evidence'.

    How about the bathroom bloody footprint that is obviously not RG's?

    How about the mixed DNA/blood of AK/MK?

    How about the continued lies told by BOTH AK and RS?

    How about the obvious clean-up attempt?

    Why would RG stage the break-in?

    How about RS stating that he 'pricked' MK's hand while previously cooking a meal with her? That outright lie should at least make you question both in their innocence.

    A list like that would support your position better than "I just do" and claiming there is a lack of evidence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Dan
    Her changing stories don't come from one interrogation. IMO, if the cops wanted a particular story, once they got it that would be the end. It wasn't though.
    Dan, I don't believe the process of coerced testimony is that simple. In most cases, it's more like a negotiation than simple capitulation, with the suspect trying to find the least self-incriminating story that will satisfy the interrogator. And the interrogator trying to get the most incriminating story that can be fit to the known evidence (that evidence being subject to change even during the interrogation).

    And let's remember that in most cases, the interrogator isn't knowingly trying to get an innocent person to falsely confess. So his goal isn't to get the suspect to simply parrot a previously conceived tale, but to tell an original story that fits the evidence and solves the case.

    In interrogations of wrongfully suspected subjects, both parties are chasing something that doesn't exist: the "magic words" that will end the interrogation without an arrest or a true confession from an innocent party.

    It's a messy business and it shouldn't surprise us that the result is a mishmash of ambiguities, falsehoods, half-truths and outright speculation.

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    Carried over from thread #1

    Quote Originally Posted by SleuthyGal View Post
    Wait a minute.... is it true that the knife was found "in a box in the back of RS's closet?" That's what Wendy Murphy alleges on the 'Jane Velez-Mitchell Show." That's the first time I've heard such a thing.

    Can anyone here confirm that piece of info and do you know of (another) source for that? That is a huge deal, IMHO, if true.
    Quote Originally Posted by dgfred View Post
    I believe, not positive though, that the knife was found in his home then PLACED in a shoebox and removed by police... that is what I have read somewhere .
    This is why this damned reporting is so frustrating. The misreporting is spectacularly amazing. I just sent an email to Wendy Murphy asking for her source on the back of the closet information.

    Meanwhile here's a picture of the knife in a cardboard box. http://www.cnn.nl/2009/CRIME/11/04/i...nce/index.html Notice the knife is tightly wrapped in plastic and has a tag with a number that cannot be opened without breaking it. If the defense's claim is that it could have easily been contaminated is mularkey. JMO


    Quote Originally Posted by Celt1997 View Post
    Carried over from previous thread:



    I think it is a little unfair to imply this person is a "loser." I don't know if I'd ever 100% give up on one of my close friends, even in the face of damning evidence. Obviously this is tough for everyone involved, and just because they choose to believe someone they've known closely, for perhaps many years, over some jurors/prosecutors, etc... they've never met, does not make them a loser in any sense.
    I don't think she's a loser for sticking up for a friend just a loser for trying to get me to believe that everyone was asleep or doing something else instead of watching the defense. JMO
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgfred View Post
    @ Tizzle- It is not that I want to know why you don't agree with MY position... I want to know why you argue against it, but do not have any evidence of innocence.

    "I just do" is not really a fair answer and does make it look as you are playing devil's advocate.

    *The two page letter verified what she had said before about Patrick but it claimed she wasn't sure whether it was a dream or what.

    *If you can not find any discrepancies in her email then I suggest you look for omitions... which there are quite a few. Note when she writes that they called the police.

    *Media links do not help if the evidence was not used in court. The shop keeper wasn't used because he had no proof for example.
    What's wrong with playing devil's advocate? It's a time-honored process. If you don't like it, you don't have to play.

    As for "evidence of innocence," apart from an air-tight alibi, what is that anyway? I know it isn't required in U.S. courts of law. Rather, the accepted procedure is to evaluate and challenge the supposed evidence of guilt.

    I don't blame anyone for being troubled by the suspects' lying, but as many have pointed out here, there are various reasons why people lie. One of those reasons is attempting to conceal guilt, certainly, but it isn't the only one.

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    My stance on AK and RS is "innocent until proven guilty" and by proven I mean, "proven to me in order for my opinion to change to guilty." Multiple mixed-DNA blood spots is something that would convince me of involvement by AK. However, I have to find info that informs me about the DNA testing on these items, if such a thing exists and is findable.

    Ditto *if* that knife was found "hidden in the back of the closet." If that is something assumed by one of the media (Wendy Murphy, et. al.) and it's wrong, then how can I believe any of the media reports? One detail wrong can mean the difference between thinking a suspect is guilty and thinking they are not guilty.

    And it's not that I need to prove that AK is INNOCENT...it's that for me to say definitively 'guilty' then I have to see the evidence that nails that coffin shut. She might be guilty in actuality but there has to be the evidence to convince me. Yes I know the Italian jury is convinced. I'm talking about me in my late-to-the-game armchair jurist role., for which I'm being paid the staggering sum of... ZERO! ;-)

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    False confessions typically happen when the police are dealing with a dim bulb. Amanda is not a dim bulb.

    Amanda's roommate is brutally murdered in the house where Amanda lives. Amanda doesn't seem to know where she was that night. This is not the definition of a false confession.

    How can the police force you not to remember?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LogicalMinds View Post
    It really doesn't matter what we think...this happened in Italy..and they found her guilty
    Of course it matters what we think! The important thing is THAT WE THINK and we use our brains to figure out puzzles. Despite the fact that an Italian jury found AK and RS guilty of all charges, that doesn't mean that no one else should be interested in the case, look at the evidence, and determine for themselves if they think there is enough evidence to determine guilt (or not). Figuring out 'who done it' is what thousands...nee...millions of people do. We are curious animals, we humans, and we want to unravel puzzles. And this is still a bit of a puzzle even if many are convinced that the Italian jury got it all correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert18 View Post
    False confessions typically happen when the police are dealing with a dim bulb. Amanda is not a dim bulb.

    Amanda's roommate is brutally murdered in the house where Amanda lives. Amanda doesn't seem to know where she was that night. This is not the definition of a false confession.

    How can the police force you not to remember?
    The fact of the matter is that unless we witnessed this interrogation and saw exactly what questions were asked, how they were asked, etc, etc, we really can't know how that interrogation went down. A turn of a phrase, yelling, accusing, asking questions using double-negatives...we don't know what techniques were employed in this interrogation. We only know what we're told by the prosecution and the info AK has related in her snippets. And we know precious little from the prosecution side as to what happened and how it happened.

    If you weren't there you don't know. I wasn't there. I certainly don't know. None of us were there to listen and hear it for ourselves. This is why I choose to focus MORE of my attention on things like the physical evidence. I have no basis to argue subjective behavioral evidence since I was not a witness to those things.

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    Since the interrogation was not used in the trial, maybe we could discuss the actual evidence presented in court.

    But then again, everyone knows about it, or as much as the press put out, including the jury. How to unring a bell?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert18 View Post
    False confessions typically happen when the police are dealing with a dim bulb. Amanda is not a dim bulb.
    Please see the links provided in the previous thread. Mental impairment and immaturity are significant factors in false confessions, but they are by no means universal. I don't know how you get to "typical."

    Amanda's roommate is brutally murdered in the house where Amanda lives. Amanda doesn't seem to know where she was that night. This is not the definition of a false confession.
    Amanda has made conflicting statements, and we have been discussing possible reasons for the conflicts. You are calling that "doesn't seem to know," not she. And, yes, conflicting statements are often the primary indication of a false confession.

    How can the police force you not to remember?
    AK doesn't claim this--at least not now--as far as I know. If you know otherwise, I will be grateful to see your source.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ohiogirl View Post
    Since the interrogation was not used in the trial, maybe we could discuss the actual evidence presented in court.

    But then again, everyone knows about it, or as much as the press put out, including the jury. How to unring a bell?
    Indeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LogicalMinds View Post
    It really doesn't matter what we think...this happened in Italy..and they found her guilty

    I don't have a drop of Italian blood in me but I find it highly offensive to blame Italy or act as if their court system is flawed just because she is American

    they found her guilty...they have appeals...and that's it

    as for Germany...they would have sent her back to Italy...the EU of today means that all the countries in Europe pretty much are on the "same page" in regards to crime

    the only place they have a problem with is sending people back the US in capital cases...cause none of their countries has the death penalty

    anytime someone manages to kill someone in the US and get back to Europe (Mexico/South America...really most anywhere) or go to Europe, our prosecutors have to "take the death penalty off the table" and sign agreements that our courts will impose a maximum of life in prison

    That has happened various times...our states do sign off on that...and honor it..otherwise we would never be able to extradite people from Europe

    Frankly IF the state dept wastes one penny of my tax dollars on this case I will be furiious..this is NOT a political case, Amanda was not a political prisoner or a diplomat

    maybe some Americans are so stupid that we need a big warning on our passports "you are now leaving United States of America and subject to the laws of other countries"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    What's wrong with playing devil's advocate? It's a time-honored process. If you don't like it, you don't have to play.

    As for "evidence of innocence," apart from an air-tight alibi, what is that anyway? I know it isn't required in U.S. courts of law. Rather, the accepted procedure is to evaluate and challenge the supposed evidence of guilt.

    I don't blame anyone for being troubled by the suspects' lying, but as many have pointed out here, there are various reasons why people lie. One of those reasons is attempting to conceal guilt, certainly, but it isn't the only one.
    Hey I am all for playing, but I like my opponent to at least admit it.

    Supporting or challenging the evidence is fine, but not just denying it exist or claiming each piece is not valid. No evidence OPPOSING the guilty looking evidence makes that person guilty in many cases don't ya think?

    What would be 'reasons' for lying in a murder investigation that has targeted you? Repeatidly doing so makes the person seem guilty does it not? That, with other circumstancial evidence of guilt will pile up quickly towards that end.

    AK must truely be one of the unluckiest people in the world. Almost every piece of evidence and statements show guilt, but not a single piece remotely shows innocence. One simple statement or proof of doing something else at the time of the murder would save her... but it is not to be. Such evidence or proof does not seem to exist. Not only for her, but for RS too.

    I believe the Italian jury found the right suspects, they could just not say with certainty which one did the actual killing of MK. That is why they were found guilty of the crimes, but did not get the life sentences the prosecution was asking for... not because there was any doubt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohiogirl View Post
    Since the interrogation was not used in the trial, maybe we could discuss the actual evidence presented in court.

    But then again, everyone knows about it, or as much as the press put out, including the jury. How to unring a bell?
    But since the jurors and 2 judges on the panel are told not to use this evidence, we have to suppose they did just that. They are also sworn to only judge by the evidence presented in court.

    There is plenty in the 2 pg letter, the emails, the evidence and her statements (lies)... so much so that the interrogation material is not even needed imo.
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    Guys, your beating your head against a wall here.

    I would say the thread has been infiltrated by the "FOA" gang.

    There is no reasoning with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darnudes View Post
    Guys, your beating your head against a wall here.

    I would say the thread has been infiltrated by the "FOA" gang.

    There is no reasoning with them.
    I came to that conclusion a couple of days ago. That is why I am wearing a helmet now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert18 View Post
    I came to that conclusion a couple of days ago. That is why I am wearing a helmet now.
    lol..yep and same. I left the thread a couple of days ago because of them, which of course, is exactly what they want.

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