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Thread: British student murdered in Perugia, Amanda Knox convicted #2

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgfred View Post
    @ Tizzle- It is not that I want to know why you don't agree with MY position... I want to know why you argue against it, but do not have any evidence of innocence.

    "I just do" is not really a fair answer and does make it look as you are playing devil's advocate.

    >>snipped<<
    *Media links do not help if the evidence was not used in court. The shop keeper wasn't used because he had no proof for example.
    Where is your evidence of guilt? Other than theories and gossip, of course. Just because something was introduced as evidence in court by the prosecutor does not make it fact, in my mind. To me, most are wild, far fetched accusations and theories made up by this prosecutor. Like he was reaching for evidence. Any evidence.

    I don't have to answer to you or anyone about whether or not I feel Amanda is guilty. Call it what you will, devil's advocate, whatever, but I'm just trying to dig up the facts. I'm trying to find the "smoking gun". As of yet, I'm unsuccessful at finding it. That doesn't mean that the jury was definitely wrong, it just means I question whether or not they were. Thankfully, I have that right. Just because I wasn't posting here and only really followed this case at the beginning and end, does not mean I don't know how to read and catch up! It doesn't mean I can't voice my opinion and concerns. Valid concerns, IMO. It's not like it hurts having a fresh voice around, someone who wasn't kept up to date on all the garbage reported in the press that brought most people to their verdict of guilty in the first place, YKIM?

    The media link I provided about the shopkeeper says his testimony was used in the 11th hearing, sooooooo, I'm not really sure what you mean by your last " * " statement.
    Last edited by Tizzle; 12-10-2009 at 01:38 AM.

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  3. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tizzle View Post
    Where is your evidence of guilt? Other than theories and gossip, of course. I have seen you post no links, just your opinion. Just because it was introduced into court by the prosecutor does not make it fact, in my mind. To me, most are wild, far fetched accusations and theories. Like they were reaching for evidence. Any evidence.

    I don't have to answer to you or anyone about whether or not I feel Amanda is guilty. Call it what you will, devil's advocate, whatever, but I'm just trying to dig up the facts. I'm trying to find the "smoking gun". As of yet, I'm unsuccessful at finding it. That doesn't mean that the jury was definitely wrong, it just means I question whether or not they were. Thankfully, I have that right. Just because I wasn't here posting here and only really followed this case at the beginning and end, does not mean I don't know how to read and catch up! It doesn't mean I can't voice my opinion and concerns. Valid concerns, IMO.

    The media link I provided about the shopkeeper says his testimony was used in the 11th hearing, sooooooo, I'm not really sure what you mean by your last " * " statement.
    Quite frankly if you want links then go to some of the Italian sites and read the reports and evidence for yourself.

    You are not trying to dig up the facts you are a pushing an agenda which is very plain for all to see.

    It actually doesn't matter what you think - A jury heard all the evidence and Amanda and 2 others were found guilty and are now serving their sentences. They have the right of appeal but I suspect Amanda is going to grow old in her Italian prison and rightly so.
    Last edited by darnudes; 12-09-2009 at 06:12 PM. Reason: sp

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  5. #28
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    So those of us who are trying to come up to speed and learn about the evidence and the facts of the case are "friends of Amanda?" That I don't automatically assume she's guilty because someone says I should think that way makes me a "friend?" How about being called an independent thinker? I think it's good to learn about the case and see what the evidence is and what's there and what's not there and see if it rises to the level of 'beyond reasonable doubt.' Each person has that right. Not only that, thinking through each step makes for a useful discussion. Otherwise why not just take what the rags say as gospel and dispense with any thinking at all?

    I'm a DNA and physical evidence kinda gal. If it's a bloody scene, as this one surely is, and there is physical evidence, which this one surely has, then that's my logical place to begin because it's the one thing that will tell a tale that gets me closest to being able to determine 'guilty' or 'not guilty.' The rest is good stuff too, to the extent I can use it and can get at the truth of it. When there is information that is in conflict then I have no choice but to discard it and keep going.

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  7. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgfred View Post
    'Lack of evidence' is not equal to 'blind to the evidence'.
    I'm not blind to the evidence, nor am I stupid. Don't misinterpret what I'm saying. The only people that know without a doubt whether Amanda & Raf were involved are; Amanda, Raf, Rudy and anyone else who might have been present, including Meredith. I wasn't there and neither were you. I can't say without a doubt that they are innocent or that they are guilty. I do know that the burden of proof lies with the prosecution. I don't feel they've done a good enough job of proving their guilt. I'm not the only one. I feel the press did a pretty darn good job of proving them guilty, though! That's MY opinion and it is why I lean more towards their innocence rather than guilt. I have REASONABLE DOUBT that they are guilty, therefore I couldn't, in good conscience, ever convict them or anyone else in the same situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by dgfred View Post
    How about the bathroom bloody footprint that is obviously not RG's?
    Just because it isn't RG's doesn't mean it IS Amanda's or Raf's. It could be Amanda's but then it could be anyone else's, too. Everything I have seen or read says it could be compatible with Amanda's footprint but it could also be compatible with Meredith's footprint. I have not seen or read anywhere that it IS Amanda's footprint. That isn't convincing enough for me. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by dgfred View Post
    How about the mixed DNA/blood of AK/MK?
    Again, they were roommates, it happens, especially when the roommates are women.

    Quote Originally Posted by dgfred View Post
    How about the continued lies told by BOTH AK and RS?
    I believe there was coercion involved. This is where video of the interrogations would help. Too bad there isn't any. Curious, too, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by dgfred View Post
    How about the obvious clean-up attempt?
    Just because there was an alleged clean-up attempt, it doesn't mean Amanda or Raf did it and it doesn't make them the murderers or involved. If that were the case, all roommates should be on trial because they, too, would have a vested interest in cleaning up. Have they proven without a doubt that A&R did the "cleaning up"? To my knowledge, the answer is no.

    Quote Originally Posted by dgfred View Post
    Why would RG stage the break-in?
    Maybe it wasn't staged? Maybe RG actually did break-in? As far as I can tell it has only been alleged or guessed that it was staged.

    OR...
    It isn't like Raf was a stranger to the cottage or it's inhabitants. He knew the men in the apartment downstairs, one of which was Meredith's boyfriend. He may have entered the apartment with Meredith, she probably wouldn't have thought anything of inviting him in for a visit since she was already acquainted with him. She may have let him in as a friendly gesture. During the conversation, he discovers that Meredith is home alone for the evening and at some point he becomes aggressive and things went too far. He may have been confused, it may have happened because his mind snapped and when he came out of it he panicked and tried to clean up what he had done. He then stages the break-in to make it look like a stranger did this horrible thing. It is possible.

    OR...
    After he learns Meredith is going to be alone for the evening he leaves and comes back, gaining entry through Filomena's window.

    OR...
    Guede and some of his associates, their identities unknown thus far, did the deed. Guede still panicked because it went further than it was supposed to.

    After RG leaves, he goes to the club, decides he should "clean-up", goes back to do so. If he acted alone in killing Meredith, maybe he brings a close and trusted friend with him to help. Stages the break in, starts to clean up, has to use the bathroom in the middle of clean-up. While using the bathroom, Amanda comes home, startles him and he sneaks out of the cottage the first chance he gets, maybe when Amanda enters her bedroom or when Amanda enters the shower. It is possible.

    The reason for him not flushing his doody could be because of the panicked state he might have been in or because Amanda interrupted him. Who else besides someone in a hurry, someone being interruped, someone playing a joke or a pig/slob would overlook flushing after droppin' a deuce?

    I'm sorry, but staged break-ins aren't only done by those that live in the residence. They are also done by mere aqcuaintances and even strangers to throw police of their scent. So, while Amanda & Raf would have thought it in their best interest to "stage a break-in", yes I see that, it doesn't make them guilty, for me. Because it would have also been in the best interest of the other two flatmates and the men downstairs to stage the same break-in. It could also have been in RG's best interest since he was a common guest at the cottage. Yes, I know it is reported that they were all away on holiday, but alibis can be easy to come by for some folks. If this is what makes A&R guilty then all of the other 6 housemates must be guilty, too. JMO

    It's my belief that the simplest explanation is usually the right one. These, to me, are all simple explanations and any combination of them is plausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by dgfred View Post
    How about RS stating that he 'pricked' MK's hand while previously cooking a meal with her? That outright lie should at least make you question both in their innocence.
    This, too, could have been a result of coercion and the interrogators twisting his words. I feel this was done with Amanda, as well. Again, we run into to no video proof of what went on during interrogation. Am I supposed to just believe LE's version of what took place and discount the other version? Sorry, that's not how I do. If there were only a video of their confessions, all this "he said, she said" business would be for naught.

    Also, just because people said Meredith didn't eat dinner at Raf's house with Amanda, doesn't mean she didn't. She very well could have without anyone else's knowledge. I'm sure as a grown woman she didn't find it necessary to report every movement she made to anyone. Again, JMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by dgfred View Post
    A list like that would support your position better than "I just do" and claiming there is a lack of evidence.
    Well, there's your "list", though a bit long winded compared to any list I've seen. I guess I thought my previous posts with links included were better than just a list of what I think. My bad.

    I think it's very important for me to point out that what happened to Meredith was an absolute tragedy. A beautiful young lady with a very bright future ahead of her was stolen from this earth and way too soon. My heart pains for her loved ones, sincerely. Christmas and her Birthday are coming up, I bet this is an especially hard time for her family and they are in my prayers. The intention of my posts is not to take away from the fact that a tragedy did happen. My intention is to investigate whether further tragedies are occurring, as a result of the real tragedy. I don't think Meredith, as intelligent as she obviously was, would want further injustice. She wouldn't want seemingly innocent people to be victimized in her name. IF A&R are innocent, she wouldn't want this for them. She just wouldn't.

    IF actual evidence implicating Amanda and/or Raf is ever introduced to the public and not just gossip or theories, I will be more than happy to accept that justice was, in fact, served. Until then, I don't buy it. Sorry. Again, the whole reasonable doubt thing.
    Last edited by Tizzle; 12-09-2009 at 06:32 PM. Reason: funkiness

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  9. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by darnudes View Post
    Quite frankly if you want links then go to some of the Italian sites and read the reports and evidence for yourself.

    You are not trying to dig up the facts you are a pushing an agenda which is very plain for all to see.

    It actually doesn't matter what you think - A jury heard all the evidence and Amanda and 2 others were found guilty and are now serving their sentences. They have the right of appeal but I suspect Amanda is going to grow old in her Italian prison and rightly so.
    I know how to use the Internet. I've looked and looked and looked and have found NOTHING that proves guilt of A&R beyond a reasonable doubt. NONE.

    Please don't presume to know what my purpose for posting my thoughts is. You know nothing of or about me. I assure you, there is nothing about me that is as transparent as you suggest. I have no agenda other than the search for the truth. PERIOD.

    And it does matter what I think. To me. And at the end of the day, that's the only person I have to be concerned with.
    I think you're going to be surprised at how young Amanda is actually going to be when she is released from prison. Raf, too. And rightly so, I believe. JMO
    Last edited by Tizzle; 12-09-2009 at 06:38 PM. Reason: funkiness

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  11. #31
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    FOA...

    Can be seen by the way they post.

    Generally they are rude, obnoxious and abusive. They will deliberatly try to to derail any threads on this case.

    Justice for Merideth has been achieved and I hope that her family can find some sort of peace now. My thoughts are with them.

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  13. #32
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    I personally don't think there is any perfect justice system. We have innocent people in jail here... I for one think she was involved with it and decided to go down with the boyfriend. It wouldn't be first time a female was that stupid nor unfortunately will it be the last time.

    Now having stated all of the above, let me also ask a question... If Meredith had been the one convicted, and AK be the one dead would we be having this discussion?
    "May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't."

    General George S. Patton

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  15. #33
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    Here are some questions I have that I haven't found answers for yet (in no specific order).

    1. The rock that was thrown through the window--any fingerprints on that? DNA? Anything?

    2. Any fingerprints, fibers, DNA, anything on any of the broken glass, window frames of the 2 windows? Anything there at all?

    3. The 2 MK phones thrown away and found--fingerprints on those? DNA on either phone? What calls were made & received on those phones? Times?

    4. Glass on top of clothes = staged break in? None of these items were left out previously?

    5. If footprints were revealed by luminol in hallway and they are shown to look intact, then how is it they were wiped away? Wouldn't they appear all smeared and unable to be identified?

    6. Eyewitness/earwitness across the street said she heard footsteps of several (3) people running away after the screams. 48 hrs repeated this test in the apt above & with windows closed, could not detect the sound of footsteps. Why would RS and AK need to run away if they were going to instead do a cleanup? Wouldn't CCTV have captured them coming in the house & leaving?

    7. MK's room was pretty tiny--why was her body even attempted to be moved around the room? To recover evidence?

    8. Some footprints were made with shoes and others were barefoot. Anyone see an analysis of who was wearing shoes and who wasn't and why? AK said she came home & took a shower.

    9. Is it possible that RG was there with someone else (not AK and not RS) and that person's footprints are what appear?

    10. Where was the knife that the police confiscated from RS's? In the knife drawer? In a closet?

    11. When was bleach used in RS's apt? Before the murder? After the murder? The next day?

    12. The mop that AK mentions in her email that she needs to take to RS's house. Was this ever found and was it tested?

    13. Clothes that RS and AK wore on Nov 1 and the morning of Nov 2. Were these ever found? What about their shoes -- found?

    I'm sure I'll have more questions as I continue on, but those are the first set I thought of.

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  17. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by darnudes View Post
    FOA...

    Can be seen by the way they post.

    Generally they are rude, obnoxious and abusive. They will deliberatly try to to derail any threads on this case.

    Justice for Merideth has been achieved and I hope that her family can find some sort of peace now. My thoughts are with them.
    As of today I am not nor have I been FOA....but the more I learn the more I'm thinking about becoming one!

    I have not once been rude, obnoxious or abusive in any of my posts. Please don't accuse me of that because that has not been my intention at all. I feel like you are being that way, though. And I'm not trying to derail anything unless A&R have, in fact, been railroaded. But certainly not this discussion.

    And yes, when RG was found guilty, justice was served for Meredith, for sure. Not so sure about the last 2 guilty verdicts YET, though. Still waiting. and JMO

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  19. #35
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    Once again, let's look at Amanda's email and statements...

    Amanda Knox wrote:
    This is an email for everyone, because id like to get it all out and
    not have to repeat myself a hundred times like ive been having to do
    at the police station. some of you already know some things, some of
    you know nothing. what im about to say i cant say to journalists or
    newspapers, and i require that of anone receiving this information as
    well. this is m account of how i found my roommate murdered the
    morning of friday, november 2nd.
    The last time i saw meredith, 22, english, beautiful, funny, was when
    i came home from spending the night at a friends house. It was the day
    after halloween, thursday. I got home and she was still asleep, bu
    after i had taken a shower and was fumbling around the kitchen she
    emerged from her room with the blood of her costume (vampire) still
    dripping down her chin. We talked for a while in the kitchen, how the
    night went, what our plans were for the day. Nothing out of the
    ordinary. then she went to take a shower and i began to start eating a
    little while i waited for my friend (Raffaele-at whose house i stayed
    over) to arrive at my house. He came right after i started eating and
    he made himself some pasta. as we were eating together meredith came
    out of the shower and grabbed some laundry or put some laundry in, one
    or the other and returned into her room after saying hi to raffael.
    after lunch i began to play guitar with raffael and meredith came out
    of her room and went to the door. she said bye and left for the day.
    it was the last time i saw her alive.
    after a little while of playing guitar me and raffael went to his
    house to watch movies and after to eat dinner and generally spend the
    evening and night indoors. we didnt go out. the next morning i woke up
    around 1030 and after grabbing my few things i left raffael's
    appartment and walked the five minute walk back to my house to once
    again take a shower and grab a chane of clothes. i also needed to grab
    a mop because after dinner raffael had spilled a lot of water on the
    floor of his kitchen by accident and didnt have a mop to clean it up.
    so i arrived home and the first abnormal thing i noticed was the door
    was wide open. here's the thingabout the door to our house: its
    broken, in such a way that you have to use the keys to keep it closed.
    if we dont have the door locked, it is really easy for the wond to
    blow the door open, and so, my roommates and i always have the door
    locked unless we are running really quickley to bring the garbage out
    or to get something from the neighbors who live below us. (another
    important piece of imformation: for those who dont know, i inhabit a
    house of two stories, of which my three roommates and i share the
    second story appartment. there are four italian guys of our age
    between 22 and 26 who live below us. we are all wuite good friends and
    we talk often. giacomo is especially welcome because he plays guitar
    with me and laura, one of my roommates, and is, or was dating
    meredith. the other three are marco, stefano, and ricardo.) anyway, so
    the door was wide open. strange, yes, but not so strange that i really
    thought anything about it. i assumed someone in the house was doing
    exactly what i just said, taking out the trash or talking really
    uickley to the neighbors downstairs. so i closed the door behind me
    but i didnt lock it, assuming that the person who left the door open
    would like to come back in. when i entered i called out if anyone was
    there, but no one responded and i assumed that if anyone was there,
    they were still asleep. lauras door was open which meant she wasnt
    home, and filomenas door was also closed. my door was open like always
    and meredith door was closed, which to me weant she was sleeping. i
    undressed in my room and took a quick shower in one of the two
    bathrooms in my house, the one that is right next to meredith and my
    bedrooms (situated right next to one another). it was after i stepped
    out of the shower and onto the mat that i noticed the blood in the
    bathroom. it was on the mat i was using to dry my feet and there were
    drops of blood in the sink. at first i thought the blood might have
    come from my ears which i had pierced extrensively not too long ago,
    but then immediately i know it wasnt mine becaus the stains on the mat
    were too big for just droplets form my ear, and when i touched the
    blood in the sink it was caked on already. there was also blood
    smeered on the faucet. again, however, i thought it was strange,
    because my roommates and i are very clean and we wouldnt leave blood
    int he bathroom, but i assumed that perhaps meredith was having
    menstral issues and hadnt cleaned up yet. ew, but nothing to worry
    about. i left the bathroom and got dressed in my room. after i got
    dressed i went to the other bathroom in my house, the one that
    filomena dn laura use, and used their hairdryer to obviously dry my
    hair and it was after i was putting back the dryer that i noticed the
    **** that was left in the toilet, something that definately no one in
    out house would do. i started feeling a little uncomfortable and so i
    grabbed the mop from out closet and lef the house, closing and locking
    the door that no one had come back through while i was in the shower,
    and i returned to raffael's place. after we had used the mop to clean
    up the kitchen i told raffael about what i had seen in the house over
    breakfast. the strange blood in the bathroom, the door wide open, the
    **** left in the toilet. he suggested i call one of my roommates, so i
    called filomena. filomena had been at a party the night before with
    her boyfriend marco (not the same marco who lives downstairs but we'll
    call him marco-f as in filomena and the other can be marco-n as in
    neighbor). she also told me that laura wasnt at home and hadnt been
    because she was on business in rome. which meant the only one who had
    spent the night at our house last night was meredith, and she was as
    of yet unaccounted for. filomena seemed really worried, so i told her
    id call meredith and then call her back. i called both of merediths
    phones the english one first and last and the italian one between. the
    first time i called the english phone is rang and then sounded as of
    there was disturbance, but no one answered. i then calle the italian
    phone and it just kept ringing, no answer. i called her english phone
    again and this time an english voice told me her phone was out of
    service. raffael and i gathered our things and went back to my house.
    i unlocked the door and im going to tell this really slowly to get
    everything right so just have patience with me. the living
    room/kitchen was fine. looked perfectly normal. i was checking for
    signs of our things missing, should there have been a burglar in our
    house the night before. filomenas room was closed, but when i opned
    the door her room and a mess and her window was open and completely
    broken, but her computer was still sitting on her desk like it always
    was and this confused me. convinced that we had been robbed i went to
    lauras room and looked quickley in, but it was spottless, like it
    hadnt even been touced. this too, i thought was odd. i then went into
    the part of the house that meredith and i share and checked my room
    for things missing, which there werent. then i knocked on merediths
    room.
    at first i thought she was alseep so i knocked gently, but when she
    didnt respond i knocked louder and louder until i was really banging
    on her door and shouting her name. no response. panicing, i ran out
    onto our terrace to see if maybe i could see over the ledge into her
    room from the window, but i couldnt see in. bad angle. i then went
    into the bathroom where i had dried my hair and looked really quickley
    into the toilet. in my panic i thought i hadnt seen anything there,
    which to me meant whoever was in my house had been there when i had
    been there. as it turns out the police told me later that the toilet
    was full and that the **** had just fallen to the bottom of the
    toilet, so i didnt see it. i ran outside and down to our neighbors
    door. the lights were out but i banged ont he door anyway. i wanted to
    ask them if they had heard anything the night before, but no one was
    home. i ran back into the house. in the living room raffael told me he
    wanted to see if he could break down merediths door. he tried, and
    cracked the door, but we couldnt open it. it was then that we decided
    to call the cops. there are two types of cops in italy, carbanieri
    (local, dealing with traffic and domestic calls) and the police
    investigaters. he first called his sister for advice and then called
    the carbanieri. i then called filomna who said she would be on her way
    home immediately. while we were waiting, two ununiformed police
    investigaters came to our house. i showed them what i could and told
    them what i knew. gave them ohone numbers and explained a bit in
    broken italian, and then filomena arrived with her boyfriend marco-f
    and two other friends of hers. all together we checked the houe out,
    talked to the polie,a nd in a big they all opened merediths door.
    i was in the kitchen stadning aside, having really done my part for
    the situation. but when they opened merediths door and i heard
    filomena scream "a foot! a foot!" in italian i immedaitely tried to
    get to merediths room but raffael grabbed me and took me out of the
    house. the police told everyone to get out and not long afterward the
    carabinieri arrived and then soon afterward, more police
    investigators. they took all of our informaton and asked us the same
    questions over and over. at the time i had only what i was wearing and
    my badg, which thankfully had my passport in it and my wallet. no
    jacket though, and i was freezing. after sticking around at the housr
    for a bit, the police told us to go to the station to give testimony,
    which i did. i was in a room for six hours straight after that without
    seeing anyone else, answering questions in italian for the first hour
    and then they brought in an interpreter and he helped my out with the
    details that i didnt know the words for. they asked me of course about
    the the morning, the last time i saw her, and because i was the
    closest to her, questions about her habits and her relationships.
    afterward, when they were taking my fingerprints, i met two of
    merediths english friends, two girls she goes out with, including the
    lat one who saw her alive that night she was murdered. they also had
    their prints taken. after that, this was around 9 at night by this
    time, i was taken into the waiting room where there was various other
    people who i all knew from varous places who all knew meredith. her
    friends from england, my roommates, even the owner of the pub she most
    frequented. after a while my neighbors were taken in too, having just
    arived home from a weeklong vacation in their home town, which
    eplained why they werent home when i banged on their door. later than
    that another guy showed up and was taken in for questioning, a guy i
    dont like but who both meredith and i knew from different occasions, a
    morracan guy that i only know by his nickname amongst the girls
    "shaky". then i sat around in this waiting room wthout having the
    chance to leave or eat anything besides vending maschine food (whcih
    gave me a hell of a stomache ache) until 530 in the morning. during
    this time i received calls from a lot of different people, family
    mostly of course, and i also talked with the rest. especially to find
    out what exactly was in merediths room whent hey opened it. apparently
    her body was laying under a sheet, and with her foot sticking out and
    there was a lot of blood. whoever had did this had slit her throat.
    they told me to be back in at 11am. i went home to raffael's place and
    ate something substantial, and passed out.
    in the morning raffael drove me bck to the police station but had to
    leave me when they said they wantrd to take me back to the house for
    quesioning. before i go on, id like to ssay that i was strictly told
    not to speak about this, but im speaking with you people who are not
    involved and who cant do anything bad except talk to journalists,
    which i hope you wont do. i have to get this off my chest because its
    pressing down on me and it helps to know that someone besides me knows
    something, and that im not the one who knows the most out of everyone.
    at the house they asked me very personal questions about meredith's
    life and also about the personalities of our neighbors. how well did i
    know them? pretty well, we are friends. was meredith sexually active?
    yeah, she borrowed a few of my condoms. does she like anal? wtf? i
    dont know. does she use vaseline? for her lips? what kind of person is
    stefano? nice guy, has a really pretty girlfriend. hmmm...very
    interesting....wed like to how you something, and tell us if this is
    out of normal.
    tehy took me into the nieghbors house. the had breaken the door open
    to get in, but they told me to ingonore that. the rooms were all open.
    giacomo and marco-n's room was spotless which made since becaus the
    guys had thoroughly cleaned the whole house before they left on
    vacation. stefano's room however, well, his bed was strpped of linens,
    which was odd, and the comfoter he used was shoved up at the top of
    his bed, with blood on it. i obviously told then that the blood was
    definatley out of normal and also that he usually has his bed made.
    they took note of it and ussred me out. when i left the house to go
    back to the police station they told me to put my jacket over my head
    and duck down below the window so the reporters wouldnt try to talk to
    me. at the station i just had to repeat the answers that i had givne
    at the house do they could type them up and after a good 5 and a half
    hour day with the police again raffael picked me up and took me out
    for some well-deserved pizza. i was starving. i then bought some
    underwear because as it turns out i wont be able to leave italy for a
    while as well as enter my house. i only had the clothes i was wearing
    the day it bagan, so i bought some underwear and borrwed a pair of
    pants from raffael.
    Spoke with my remaining roommates that night (last night) and it was a
    hurricane of emotions and stress but we needed it anyway. What we have
    been discussing is bascially what to do next. We are trying to keep
    our heads on straight. First things first though, my roommates both
    work for lawyers, and they are going to try to send a request through
    on monday to retrieve important documents of ours that are still in
    the house. Secondly, we are going to talk to the agency that we used
    to find our house and obviously request to move out. It kind of sucks
    that we have to pay the next months rent, but the owner has protection
    within the contract. After that, I guess I'll go back to class on
    monday, although im not sure what im going to do about people asking
    me questions, because i really dont want to talk again about what
    happened. Ive been talking an awful lot lately and im pretty tired of
    it. After that, Its like im trying to remember what i was doing before
    all this happened. I still need to figure out who i need to talk to
    and what i need to do to continue studying in perugia, because its
    what i want to do.
    Anyway, thats the update, feeling okay, hope you all are well,
    amanda

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  21. #36
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    Her Statement to Police on 6 November

    Amanda knox wrote:
    This is very strange, I know, but really what happened is as confusing to me as it is to everyone else. I have been told there is hard evidence saying that I was at the place of the murder of my friend when it happened. This, I want to confirm, is something that to me, if asked a few days ago, would be impossible.

    I know that Raffaele has placed evidence against me, saying that I was not with him on the night of Meredith's murder, but let me tell you this. In my mind there are things I remember and things that are confused. My account of this story goes as follows, despite the evidence stacked against me:

    On Thursday November 1 I saw Meredith the last time at my house when she left around 3 or 4 in the afternoon. Raffaele was with me at the time. We, Raffaele and I, stayed at my house for a little while longer and around 5 in the evening we left to watch the movie Amelie at his house. After the movie I received a message from Patrik [sic], for whom I work at the pub "Le Chic". He told me in this message that it wasn't necessary for me to come into work for the evening because there was no one at my work.

    Now I remember to have also replied with the message: "See you later. Have a good evening!" and this for me does not mean that I wanted to meet him immediately. In particular because I said: "Good evening!" What happened after I know does not match up with what Raffaele was saying, but this is what I remember. I told Raffaele that I didn't have to work and that I could remain at home for the evening. After that I believe we relaxed in his room together, perhaps I checked my email. Perhaps I read or studied or perhaps I made love to Raffaele. In fact, I think I did make love with him.

    However, I admit that this period of time is rather strange because I am not quite sure. I smoked marijuana with him and I might even have fallen asleep. These things I am not sure about and I know they are important to the case and to help myself, but in reality, I don't think I did much. One thing I do remember is that I took a shower with Raffaele and this might explain how we passed the time. In truth, I do not remember exactly what day it was, but I do remember that we had a shower and we washed ourselves for a long time. He cleaned my ears, he dried and combed my hair.

    One of the things I am sure that definitely happened the night on which Meredith was murdered was that Raffaele and I ate fairly late, I think around 11 in the evening, although I can't be sure because I didn't look at the clock. After dinner I noticed there was blood on Raffaele's hand, but I was under the impression that it was blood from the fish. After we ate Raffaele washed the dishes but the pipes under his sink broke and water flooded the floor. But because he didn't have a mop I said we could clean it up tomorrow because we (Meredith, Laura, Filomena and I) have a mop at home. I remember it was quite late because we were both very tired (though I can't say the time).

    The next thing I remember was waking up the morning of Friday November 2nd around 10am and I took a plastic bag to take back my dirty cloths to go back to my house. It was then that I arrived home alone that I found the door to my house was wide open and this all began. In regards to this "confession" that I made last night, I want to make clear that I'm very doubtful of the verity of my statements because they were made under the pressures of stress, shock and extreme exhaustion. Not only was I told I would be arrested and put in jail for 30 years, but I was also hit in the head when I didn't remember a fact correctly. I understand that the police are under a lot of stress, so I understand the treatment I received.

    However, it was under this pressure and after many hours of confusion that my mind came up with these answers. In my mind I saw Patrik in flashes of blurred images. I saw him near the basketball court. I saw him at my front door. I saw myself cowering in the kitchen with my hands over my ears because in my head I could hear Meredith screaming. But I've said this many times so as to make myself clear: these things seem unreal to me, like a dream, and I am unsure if they are real things that happened or are just dreams my head has made to try to answer the questions in my head and the questions I am being asked.

    But the truth is, I am unsure about the truth and here's why:

    1. The police have told me that they have hard evidence that places me at the house, my house, at the time of Meredith's murder. I don't know what proof they are talking about, but if this is true, it means I am very confused and my dreams must be real.

    2. My boyfriend has claimed that I have said things that I know are not true. I KNOW I told him I didn't have to work that night. I remember that moment very clearly. I also NEVER asked him to lie for me. This is absolutely a lie. What I don't understand is why Raffaele, who has always been so caring and gentle with me, would lie about this. What does he have to hide? I don't think he killed Meredith, but I do think he is scared, like me. He walked into a situation that he has never had to be in, and perhaps he is trying to find a way out by disassociating himself with me.

    Honestly, I understand because this is a very scary situation. I also know that the police don't believe things of me that I know I can explain, such as:

    1. I know the police are confused as to why it took me so long to call someone after I found the door to my house open and blood in the bathroom. The truth is, I wasn't sure what to think, but I definitely didn't think the worst, that someone was murdered. I thought a lot of things, mainly that perhaps someone got hurt and left quickly to take care of it. I also thought that maybe one of my roommates was having menstral [sic] problems and hadn't cleaned up. Perhaps I was in shock, but at the time I didn't know what to think and that's the truth. That is why I talked to Raffaele about it in the morning, because I was worried and wanted advice.

    2. I also know that the fact that I can't fully recall the events that I claim took place at Raffaele's home during the time that Meredith was murdered is incriminating. And I stand by my statements that I made last night about events that could have taken place in my home with Patrik, but I want to make very clear that these events seem more unreal to me that what I said before, that I stayed at Raffaele's house.

    3. I'm very confused at this time. My head is full of contrasting ideas and I know I can be frustrating to work with for this reason. But I also want to tell the truth as best I can. Everything I have said in regards to my involvement in Meredith's death, even though it is contrasting, are the best truth that I have been able to think.

    [illegible section]

    I'm trying, I really am, because I'm scared for myself. I know I didn't kill Meredith. That's all I know for sure. In these flashbacks that I'm having, I see Patrik as the murderer, but the way the truth feels in my mind, there is no way for me to have known because I don't remember FOR SURE if I was at my house that night. The questions that need answering, at least for how I'm thinking are:

    1. Why did Raffaele lie? (or for you) Did Raffaele lie?
    2. Why did I think of Patrik?
    3. Is the evidence proving my pressance [sic] at the time and place of the crime reliable? If so, what does this say about my memory? Is it reliable?
    4. Is there any other evidence condemning Patrik or any other person?
    3. Who is the REAL murder [sic]? This is particularly important because I don't feel I can be used as condemning testimone [sic] in this instance.

    I have a clearer mind that I've had before, but I'm still missing parts, which I know is bad for me. But this is the truth and this is what I'm thinking at this time. Please don't yell at me because it only makes me more confused, which doesn't help anyone. I understand how serious this situation is, and as such, I want to give you this information as soon and as clearly as possible.

    If there are still parts that don't make sense, please ask me. I'm doing the best I can, just like you are. Please believe me at least in that, although I understand if you don't. All I know is that I didn't kill Meredith, and so I have nothing but lies to be afraid of.

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  23. #37
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    Evidence I find hinky, if it's true & valid:

    1. Mix of AK + MK blood in the 3rd roommate's room. That alone could swing me to the guilty side unless there's a plausible innocent explanation for it. (Mixed DNA in the bathroom, while hinky, isn't as explosive as mixed DNA/blood in a room neither AK nor MK would have any reason to use or enter).

    2. IF the knife was 'hidden' somewhere in RS's apt. That would be very hinky. If it was found in the knife drawer, then nevermind, I'll move on to the DNA for that.

    3. No computer activity on RS's computer when both said they were on/using the computer. Again, if the tests are valid, this would be hinky to me.

    4. The turning off of cell phones at the same time is strange to me, unless there's a valid/plausible reason for this. Did they both turn them on again at the same time the next day? Had either done this before or was it out of the ordinary?

    5. CCTV/video of AK entering her home...does this exist? I heard it does and it shows her at night, that night. This could be hinky if it doesn't match the timeframes she gave.

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  25. #38
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    Amanda's own Lawyer...

    “Those American personalities are not helping Amanda”

    Lawyer Ghirga: “I have spoken with Prosecutor Mignini”

    by Enzo Beretta - Perugia

    “There are people around the figure of Amanda who have no formal role in the student’s defence team, which is formed by myself together with my colleague Carlo Dalla Vedova.

    These people are not only not helping our client in the difficult judicial process in the Corte d’Assise in which we have to defend her, but on the contrary, they are harming her judicial position.”

    Luciano Ghirga, lawyer for the American accused by the prosecutor of sexually assaulting and killing Meredith Kercher with her former boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito and Rudy Hermann Guede, once again distances himself from the Stars-and-Stripes “know-it-alls” who repeatedly have tried to throw mud on the work of investigators and have even personally attacked Giuliano Mignini, head of the murder investigation.

    There is strong evidence which supports the prosecution, unlike the “macaroni” pleading endlessly and one after the other on American television broadcasts, who pay lawyers, show-men and private investigators not much inclined to read the documentation.

    http://www.zimbio.com/Raffaele+Solle...rongly+Objects
    Last edited by darnudes; 12-09-2009 at 07:25 PM. Reason: as above

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  27. #39
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    Statement Amanda made in court...

    Amanda Knox:

    I want to-- reiterate my position, for all of this case, and also to clarify-- the confusion that I-- have brought to this case.


    Okay. I want to clarify what it is that happened to me in-- the-- in the Questore -- the day that-- the day that I made declarations that didn't make sense, that changed.

    After-- the discovery of Meredith, I had spent days in-- cooperating with the police, to try to just give as much information as I could.

    The day of the fifth, I wasn't called to the Questore. Raffaele was called, but I decided to go with him, to keep him company, but also because I was scared to be alone.

    When I was there, I had just planned to wait, but the police came into their waiting room and wanted to talk to me more about what I knew, people that I knew who had come to my house. I gave them phone numbers and--

    After that, they moved me into another room and started asking me the same questions, what I had done that night, asking me-- for times, exact time periods, exactly what I did. And was-- it was difficult for me because it was in the middle of the night that I-- we had been called. I was very tired. And I was also quite stressed out. And I-- so I--


    They kept asking me the same questions, time periods-- exactly sequences of actions and I did my best, to give the same information over and over and over again.

    At a certain point-- excuse me. At a certain point, the-- they began-- the police began to be more aggressive with me.

    They called me a liar and--

    They told me that I was-- of all the things that I had kept saying, over and over again, they said that I was lying. They said that--

    They threatened that I was going to go in prison for 30 years because I was hiding something. But I-- but I felt-- I felt completely stressed out, blocked, because I wasn't lying. I didn't know what I-- I didn't know what to do.

    Then they started pushing on me the idea that I must have seen something, and forgotten about it. They said that I was traumatized.

    I didn't understand. I became really confused. I tried to-- re-express, re-explain what I had done-- the fact that I didn't have to go to work. At that point, they-- I gave them my phone so they could see that I didn't have to-- I received-- okay-- okay--

    See - because I received an SMS, and for that reason, they kept repeating to me that I was lying about - SMS. I was confused.

    So, what ended up happening was the fact that I had been pressured so much, and I was-- I was hit in the back of the head by one of the police officers and--

    Who said she was trying to make me-- help me remember the truth.

    I was terrified, because I didn't know-- I-- I didn't know what to do anymore.

    And so what ended up happening was they said they-- they went-- take me to jail, and I'm - and because of all this SMS, because-- because of all this confusion, they kept saying, "You sent this thing to Patrick. We know that you left the house. We know." I just said his name. It wasn't because I was trying to say anything. I just said it because they were…

    After that - at a certain point, I asked if I should have had a lawyer. And they said that it would have been worse for me.

    So they asked me to make declarations about what I remembered, but I told that I didn't remember anything like this.

    Because I was confused. What I remembered was different from what they were asking me to say.

    They asked me for details, and I didn't have details to give them, so they just asked me questions that I just responded as -

    From - I was stressed, so what I - what, in that moment that I was trying to think of something else - my memories of just random events, of seeing Patrick, for instance, one night, or…

    I wrote these memorials that everyone's putting so much pressure on - only because I wanted to express the fact that I was confused. I felt like no one was listening to me anymore, and so I wrote these to express the fact that I didn't - I - I didn't - I wasn't for sure about anything anymore.

    I want to stress the fact that I'm innocent. Meredith was my friend, and I could never have hurt her. I'm not the person that the prosecutor says I am.

    And that's all I want to say. Thank you.

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  29. #40
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    The Daily Mail wrote:
    Perhaps that is one reason why Knox felt the need to pour out her innermost thoughts and feelings in her diary, which I have read in its entirety this week.

    I was also given exclusive access to a previously unseen, four-page e-mail which Knox circulated to her closest relatives and friends on November 4, less than 24 hours before she was arrested on suspicion of murdering Meredith.

    Written with the expressed aim of explaining her movements before and after Meredith died, but at times astonishingly insensitive, it is, in its way, just as revealing as the diary.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...ing-diary.html
    Last edited by darnudes; 12-09-2009 at 07:22 PM. Reason: requested by FOA

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  31. #41
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    Okay, I read AK's confession letter above and to me she sounds like a person who is trying to square what the cops told her ("we have solid evidence of you there in the house at the time of the murder") with her own memories.

    She does seem really confused and maybe more than a little flaky. She is talking through the things she is imagining/seeing in her mind...stream of consciousness-like, rather than outright lying or making an untrue assertion that she stands by. The things she says she is sure about she says definitively. The rest she is not certain about and waffles about.

    She doesn't sound like she's covering for RS or anyone else in this letter, but she does sound incredulous and possibly hurt that RS might (try and) implicate her. Did the police try to play one of them against the other? I think it's possible.

    Is this a 'confession?' Well, it sure doesn't sound like one to me. The most she can imagine, when told "YOU WERE THERE" is covering her ears.

    I don't know. It's reads like someone who is trying to figure out what's going on and isn't making much sense to herself (or anyone else).

    Note: I haven't yet read the other things posted above...so far just the email AK sent to her family/friends, and the written 'confession.'
    Last edited by SleuthyGal; 12-09-2009 at 07:11 PM.

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  33. #42
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    Thank you for posting these, Darnudes! So much! It's all making more and more sense to me.

    I think they were both coerced and LE used their coerced statements against the other to get the version they wanted. I think that is exactly what happened. Thank you again, Darnudes, for helping me confirm it further.

    ETA: I'm talking about the email and written 'statement', of course. As far as the rest of it, I do know that it is against copyright laws and TOS to post entire links, but go on with your bad self! And be careful!
    Last edited by Tizzle; 12-09-2009 at 07:15 PM.

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  35. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SleuthyGal View Post
    Okay, I read AK's confession letter above and to me she sounds like a person who is trying to square what the cops told her ("we have solid evidence of you there in the house at the time of the murder") with her own memories.

    She does seem really confused and maybe more than a little flaky. She is talking through the things she is imagining/seeing in her mind...stream of consciousness-like, rather than outright lying or making an untrue assertion that she stands by. The things she says she is sure about she says definitively. The rest she is not certain about and waffles about.

    She doesn't sound like she's covering for RS or anyone else in this letter, but she does sound incredulous and possibly hurt that RS might (try and) implicate her. Did the police try to play one of them against the other? I think it's possible.

    Is this a 'confession?' Well, it sure doesn't sound like one to me. The most she can imagine, when told "YOU WERE THERE" is covering her ears.

    I don't know. It's reads like someone who is trying to figure out what's going on and isn't making much sense to herself (or anyone else).

    Note: I haven't yet read the other things posted above...so far just the email AK sent to her family/friends, and the written 'confession.'
    BBM

    Those who are innocent don't need to "try and figure things out" - They just tell the truth.

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  37. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by darnudes View Post
    BBM

    Those who are innocent don't need to "try and figure things out" - They just tell the truth.
    The 'trying to figure things out' I refer to is that she is confronted by police with "absolute evidence of her being at the murder scene as it was happening" and she takes their assertion as some sort of truth/gospel instead of saying, "NO! I wasn't there!" If she wasn't there she seems unable to stick with it no matter how much they are yelling at her/hitting her or whatever they are doing. Whether she is lying or not I don't know. I wish I could have viewed the interrogation with my own eyes. This letter doesn't give me a good answer either way. I will have to concentrate on the physical evidence rather than AK's state of mind since I can't make heads or tails out of that.

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  39. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tizzle View Post
    Thank you for posting these, Darnudes! So much! It's all making more and more sense to me.

    I think they were both coerced and LE used their coerced statements against the other to get the version they wanted. I think that is exactly what happened. Thank you again, Darnudes, for helping me confirm it further.

    ETA: I'm talking about the email and written 'statement', of course. As far as the rest of it, I do know that it is against copyright laws and TOS to post entire links, but go on with your bad self! And be careful!

    You are so welcome.

    I suspect you didn't need any help from me and I will take your thanks in the manner that they were meant.

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    Okay folks I'm outta here.

    May check back later tonight but I imagine the thread will be gone by then.

  41. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by darnudes View Post
    BBM

    Those who are innocent don't need to "try and figure things out" - They just tell the truth.
    Again, this wouldn't be the first time someone gave a false confession. There's documented proof of that.

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  43. #48
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    I'm also wondering if she smoked pot or hash the day MK's body was found. Her general flakiness reminds me of some potheads I've known and they are, at times, unable to recall details of things. Also, does AK have any kind of ADD or anything? I'm not making excuses for her but again, I have a couple friends with ADD and let me tell you, they are flakoids and frustrating to deal with. AK's communication style reminds me a bit of a pothead and/or someone with ADD. I'm trying to understand her style of communication.

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  45. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tizzle View Post
    Where is your evidence of guilt? Other than theories and gossip, of course. I have seen you post no links, just your opinion. Just because it was introduced into court by the prosecutor does not make it fact, in my mind. To me, most are wild, far fetched accusations and theories. Like they were reaching for evidence. Any evidence.

    I don't have to answer to you or anyone about whether or not I feel Amanda is guilty. Call it what you will, devil's advocate, whatever, but I'm just trying to dig up the facts. I'm trying to find the "smoking gun". As of yet, I'm unsuccessful at finding it. That doesn't mean that the jury was definitely wrong, it just means I question whether or not they were. Thankfully, I have that right. Just because I wasn't posting here and only really followed this case at the beginning and end, does not mean I don't know how to read and catch up! It doesn't mean I can't voice my opinion and concerns. Valid concerns, IMO. It's not like it hurts having a fresh voice around, someone who wasn't kept up to date on all the garbage reported in the press that brought most people to their verdict of guilty in the first place, YKIM?

    The media link I provided about the shopkeeper says his testimony was used in the 11th hearing, sooooooo, I'm not really sure what you mean by your last " * " statement.
    The number of cases I've heard about that have a "smoking gun" are very, very few. Cases are built up by circumstantial evidence. Any evidence, even forensic evidence, can be dismissed by anyone as being corrupt or something else.

    If you look at each item as a brick and put them together they form a strong wall IMO. There is no smoking gun here because it's been taken away. They did find a knife though.

    You won't find a smoking gun here or in the Caylee Anthony case. No smoking guns just mounds of circumstantial evidence. JMO

    Quote Originally Posted by SleuthyGal View Post
    Evidence I find hinky, if it's true & valid:

    1. Mix of AK + MK blood in the 3rd roommate's room. That alone could swing me to the guilty side unless there's a plausible innocent explanation for it. (Mixed DNA in the bathroom, while hinky, isn't as explosive as mixed DNA/blood in a room neither AK nor MK would have any reason to use or enter).

    2. IF the knife was 'hidden' somewhere in RS's apt. That would be very hinky. If it was found in the knife drawer, then nevermind, I'll move on to the DNA for that.

    3. No computer activity on RS's computer when both said they were on/using the computer. Again, if the tests are valid, this would be hinky to me.

    4. The turning off of cell phones at the same time is strange to me, unless there's a valid/plausible reason for this. Did they both turn them on again at the same time the next day? Had either done this before or was it out of the ordinary?

    5. CCTV/video of AK entering her home...does this exist? I heard it does and it shows her at night, that night. This could be hinky if it doesn't match the timeframes she gave.
    I sent an email to Wendy Murphy about where she got the info of the knife being buried in the closet in a shoebox.

    Titled; A question about the Sollecito knife from yoiur interview with JVM

    You said it was found in a shoebox in the back of Sollecito's closet. Other reports I've read say it was found in a knife drawer at Sollecito's and transported by the Italian Forensics Dept. via shoebox? I've seen the picture of the guy wearing a forensic detectives suit showing the knife bagged up and in a shoebox but I can't find any confirming evidence about the shoebox being in the back of a closet with the knife in it. Justiceformeredith.org has the same reporting about the knife you do but no link. Could you please point me to your source. This has been a bone of contention amongst friends of mine.

    Thanks,


    I'm waiting to hear back. If and when I do I'll post her response here.
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  47. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tizzle View Post
    Again, this wouldn't be the first time someone gave a false confession. There's documented proof of that.

    hehehe, yep there is. But NOT in this case.

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