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  1. #1
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    MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

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    Last edited by KateB; 05-17-2015 at 10:41 AM. Reason: repair url tag.

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    Regarding this post here: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased MO-Elizabeth Olten, 9, St. Martin's Thread #13

    I know that the judge has the authority to change the venue and to decide where it will be. If there is overwhelming negativity coming from Springfield as well, couldn't that influence the judge to decide elsewhere?

    I know nothing about law, so I'm just thinking out loud.
    Last edited by KateB; 05-17-2015 at 10:41 AM. Reason: repair url tag.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray View Post
    Regarding this post here: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased MO-Elizabeth Olten, 9, St. Martin's Thread #13

    I know that the judge has the authority to change the venue and to decide where it will be. If there is overwhelming negativity coming from Springfield as well, couldn't that influence the judge to decide elsewhere?

    I know nothing about law, so I'm just thinking out loud.
    Oh, i thought from the text in your post you thought the lawyers got to pick it.

    Basically, the judge will make a strong effort to pick a place where there is likely to be less prejudice. If Springfield also seems to have a lot of negative press coverage, it will probably not go there.

    But, it's again, its a question of degree. No one likes what AB did, but since AB is facing LWOP there is going to be an effort to make sure that they get the trial right. Otherwise, AB's appeal will be stronger.
    Last edited by AndresEscobar; 12-09-2009 at 09:57 PM.

  4. #4
    A 15 year old isnt an adult neither emotionally, physically or mentally. They are a lot less mentally developed to the point, as an adult may, of understanding the consequences of their actions and therefore I believe the court is in error trying her as an adult but I would suspect as in most cases the judge and/or DA are elected officials and that being the case they need to appease those who vote for them on election day, so regardless of what is fair and legal they will likely be more prone to do what the voting community wants them to do rather than do what is right. Such is the legal system in our nation.

    AB needs medical care not prison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldeyes85 View Post
    A 15 year old isnt an adult neither emotionally, physically or mentally. They are a lot less mentally developed to the point, as an adult may, of understanding the consequences of their actions and therefore I believe the court is in error trying her as an adult but I would suspect as in most cases the judge and/or DA are elected officials and that being the case they need to appease those who vote for them on election day, so regardless of what is fair and legal they will likely be more prone to do what the voting community wants them to do rather than do what is right. Such is the legal system in our nation.

    AB needs medical care not prison.
    Yeah...medical care for at least 30 years IMHO

    if she killed your loved one I bet you would think differently

    I think she is a danger to society

    this is fair and legal...why would you assume otherwise?

    she will stand trial as an adult due to the severity of the crime she confessed to

    would you like to see her let out at 21 and maybe be your daughter's roommate?? Your co-worker?
    Or maybe she could marry your son...would you like her as the mother of your grandkids??

    if she was tried as a juvenile she would be let out at 21 with NO record, wiped clean...and that is a danger to society

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by LogicalMinds View Post
    Yeah...medical care for at least 30 years IMHO

    if she killed your loved one I bet you would think differently

    I think she is a danger to society

    this is fair and legal...why would you assume otherwise?

    she will stand trial as an adult due to the severity of the crime she confessed to

    would you like to see her let out at 21 and maybe be your daughter's roommate?? Your co-worker?
    Or maybe she could marry your son...would you like her as the mother of your grandkids??


    if she was tried as a juvenile she would be let out at 21 with NO record, wiped clean...and that is a danger to society
    I dont know how you got from what I said to what you said BBM. What exactly does that have to do with anything and strangely I have read through some of the past threads and anyone who mentions she should be put in a medical facility instead of prison is asked if they would like to have her come and live with them.

    I dont understand that type of reasoning at all but ok.

    JMO

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    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldeyes85 View Post
    I dont know how you got from what I said to what you said BBM. What exactly does that have to do with anything and strangely I have read through some of the past threads and anyone who mentions she should be put in a medical facility instead of prison is asked if they would like to have her come and live with them.

    I dont understand that type of reasoning at all but ok.

    JMO
    Hi...what does "BBM" mean?? thanks

    You said more than just put her in a medical facility...you were questioning the way she is being tried as an adult

    the fact is ..that IF they tried her as a juvenile she would be released at 21 with NO record...and then would be free to go anywhere, do anything, no record at all

    you said >>>"therefore I believe the court is in error trying her as an adult but I would suspect as in most cases the judge and/or DA are elected officials and that being the case they need to appease those who vote for them on election day, so regardless of what is fair and legal they will likely be more prone to do what the voting community wants them to do rather than do what is right" (snipped)

    it is fair and legal to try her as an adult

    and that is your opinon of what is "right"....just your opinion

    I happen to think that it is right to try her as an adult...justice for Elizabeth....and safety for the community that would be forced to have her among them at the age of 21, free and clear, no record, IF they had decided to try her as a juvenile

    but at any rate, it is a moot point..thank heavens they are trying her as an adult..

    this was such a violent and senseless crime, they have a confession, premeditation

    the best she can hope for is some sort of plea bargain and they don't even have to be very generous with that...I think they have a slam dunk if she and her lawyers are foolish enough to go to trial

    I don't care where they keep her...prison or mental hospital or whatever, just so she is not out in society

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by LogicalMinds View Post
    Hi...what does "BBM" mean?? thanks

    You said more than just put her in a medical facility...you were questioning the way she is being tried as an adult

    the fact is ..that IF they tried her as a juvenile she would be released at 21 with NO record...and then would be free to go anywhere, do anything, no record at all

    you said >>>"therefore I believe the court is in error trying her as an adult but I would suspect as in most cases the judge and/or DA are elected officials and that being the case they need to appease those who vote for them on election day, so regardless of what is fair and legal they will likely be more prone to do what the voting community wants them to do rather than do what is right" (snipped)

    it is fair and legal to try her as an adult

    and that is your opinon of what is "right"....just your opinion

    I happen to think that it is right to try her as an adult...justice for Elizabeth....and safety for the community that would be forced to have her among them at the age of 21, free and clear, no record, IF they had decided to try her as a juvenile

    but at any rate, it is a moot point..thank heavens they are trying her as an adult..

    this was such a violent and senseless crime, they have a confession, premeditation

    the best she can hope for is some sort of plea bargain and they don't even have to be very generous with that...I think they have a slam dunk if she and her lawyers are foolish enough to go to trial

    I don't care where they keep her...prison or mental hospital or whatever, just so she is not out in society

    Oh sorry about that BBM means Bolded By Me.

    Anyway I dont think she should be released at 21 but I think this is a medical issue and she can possibly be rehabilitated at some point. I dont have the answers and she hasnt been convicted yet but I do take issue with trying children as adults, children are not adults. I am a clinical therapist so I can speak with some authority although I do not work with minors in my practice, but at the age of 15 the child is not normally mentally developed well enough to understand the consequences of their actions thats not to say she didnt know right from wrong but I dont think she understood the long term consequences of what she did. Add in to the fact that she was on drugs both legal and illegal, the legal one prozac perhaps worse in some cases than the illegal ones, depending on the person of course, and I think we are dealing with stunted mental development and someone who is mentally and emotionally likely the age of 10-12.
    Last edited by emeraldeyes85; 12-10-2009 at 02:18 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldeyes85 View Post
    Oh sorry about that BBM means Bolded By Me.

    Anyway I dont think she should be released at 21 but I think this is a medical issue and she can possibly be rehabilitated at some point. I dont have the answers and she hasnt been convicted yet but I do take issue with trying children as adults, children are not adults. I am a clinical therapist so I can speak with some authority although I do not work with minors in my practice, but at the age of 15 the child is not normally mentally developed well enough to understand the consequences of their actions thats not to say she didnt know right from wrong but I dont think she understood the long term consequences of what she did. Add in to the fact that she was on drugs both legal and illegal, the legal one prozac perhaps worse in some cases than the illegal ones, depending on the person of course, and I think we are dealing with stunted mental development and someone who is mentally and emotionally likely the age of 10-12.
    Well unfortunately if they try them as a juvenile they get out at 21 with NO record, no parole no nothing....free and clear

    and they don't even have a juvenile facility that would be safe to keep her in...they have a "secure" boys facility for the worst offenders but for girls it seems missiouri only has dorm type/minimum security facilities that she might get out of...and she could also hurt the other girls in there

    probably with a plea deal she might get 25 or 30 years

    have you seen the case of Michael Hernandez who killed Jamie Gough in Florida?? Google them and see

    very similar to this case

    Michael and his lawyers turned down a plea deal...and he is now serving life plus 30 years

    he killed cause he wanted to...had plans...detailed notes...he had a little "hit" list but ultimately killed his shy friend, a sweet boy who was small and shy....slit his throat and stabbed him 42 ? times in the restroom at school, came back and sat at his desk like nothing happened (he wore a windbreaker and gloves etc that he disposed of)

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldeyes85 View Post
    A 15 year old isnt an adult neither emotionally, physically or mentally. They are a lot less mentally developed to the point, as an adult may, of understanding the consequences of their actions and therefore I believe the court is in error trying her as an adult ...AB needs medical care not prison.
    You have just described at least half of the people in the criminal justice system. AB doesn't have the market cornered on mental illness.

    AB also needs to face the consequences of her actions.

    The early eighties sounded the death knell for any sort of comprehensive mental health system in this country. If it was headed in a positive direction, it is now a pipe dream. When dealing with people who murder, we can't afford to deal in pipe dreams. We don't have a place that will guarantee the protection of society with an emphasis on treatment. What we have is a prison system that provides some mental health care.

    Alyssa knew right from wrong. She was afforded some of the best treatment available. She still chose to commit one of the most heinous crimes the area has ever known. She needs to be locked away from society for a very long time.


  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Bibliophile View Post
    You have just described at least half of the people in the criminal justice system. AB doesn't have the market cornered on mental illness.

    AB also needs to face the consequences of her actions.

    The early eighties sounded the death knell for any sort of comprehensive mental health system in this country. If it was headed in a positive direction, it is now a pipe dream. When dealing with people who murder, we can't afford to deal in pipe dreams. We don't have a place that will guarantee the protection of society with an emphasis on treatment. What we have is a prison system that provides some mental health care.

    Alyssa knew right from wrong. She was afforded some of the best treatment available. She still chose to commit one of the most heinous crimes the area has ever known. She needs to be locked away from society for a very long time.
    Thank you...I was trying to find these words earlier today and you did it for me, especially the part that was bolded by me.

  12. #12
    We can agree to disagree my profession is rehabilitation and I have seen it work, the other side is locking people up like animals and it never works, they always come out harder and colder than when they went in.

    If our prisons were places of rehabilitation that would be one thing but they are not and not even remotely so. They are barbaric based on a dark ages mentality and an embarassment to any progressive and forward thinking society, which admittedly we are neither, sadly.
    Last edited by emeraldeyes85; 12-10-2009 at 04:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldeyes85 View Post
    Oh sorry about that BBM means Bolded By Me.

    Anyway I dont think she should be released at 21 but I think this is a medical issue and she can possibly be rehabilitated at some point. I dont have the answers and she hasnt been convicted yet but I do take issue with trying children as adults, children are not adults. I am a clinical therapist so I can speak with some authority although I do not work with minors in my practice, but at the age of 15 the child is not normally mentally developed well enough to understand the consequences of their actions thats not to say she didnt know right from wrong but I dont think she understood the long term consequences of what she did. Add in to the fact that she was on drugs both legal and illegal, the legal one prozac perhaps worse in some cases than the illegal ones, depending on the person of course, and I think we are dealing with stunted mental development and someone who is mentally and emotionally likely the age of 10-12.

    Having worked in the Mental Health field myself (and realizing that this may be a little off topic) I am intrigued about your professional opinion as to rehabilitation to the extent that mentally and emotionally her 'age' so to speak would inprove?
    God Grant me the serenity to accept those things which I cannot change, the strength to change those things which I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

    There comes a point in your life when you realize who matters, who never did, who won't anymore, and who always will. So don't worry about people from your past; there's a reason why they didn't make it to your future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldeyes85 View Post
    Anyway I dont think she should be released at 21 but I think this is a medical issue and she can possibly be rehabilitated at some point. I dont have the answers and she hasnt been convicted yet but I do take issue with trying children as adults, children are not adults. I am a clinical therapist so I can speak with some authority although I do not work with minors in my practice, but at the age of 15 the child is not normally mentally developed well enough to understand the consequences of their actions thats not to say she didnt know right from wrong but I dont think she understood the long term consequences of what she did. Add in to the fact that she was on drugs both legal and illegal, the legal one prozac perhaps worse in some cases than the illegal ones, depending on the person of course, and I think we are dealing with stunted mental development and someone who is mentally and emotionally likely the age of 10-12.
    BBM

    The illegal drug use is still only a rumor at this point, neither confirmed or denied..

    IMO, What she did is heinous. She needs to be locked away and punished for what she did.. no amount of talking to a therapist is going to help her now.. it hasn't for the last few years.

    Why should Alyssa get a second chance at life? Elizabeth won't.
    Last edited by JLMcKenna83; 12-10-2009 at 06:02 AM.
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  15. #15
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    IMO, it has already been proven that rehabilitation does not work for her. She's been receiving help for years and has gone from wanting to only harm herself to harming and causing the death of another. Yeah, seems like that rehab really works. NOT!

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