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  1. #1
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    Duct Tape and Premeditation #500

    I thought that Jeff Ashton did an outstanding job depicting the "last moments." What struck me the most was that he pointed out the simple fact that an almost 3 yr. old could rip the tape off herself....unless physically/chemically restrained. Shocker, yes?

    After the initial shock of hearing this...I got to wondering why we, here at WS...had not thought of this yet....or has it been discussed? It made me think of the many different angles/questions about this case we have not yet considered in this case...

    (the last video of Caylee with her greatgrandfather....she seems so tired)

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pattymarie View Post
    I thought that Jeff Ashton did an outstanding job depicting the "last moments." What struck me the most was that he pointed out the simple fact that an almost 3 yr. old could rip the tape off herself....unless physically/chemically restrained. Shocker, yes?

    After the initial shock of hearing this...I got to wondering why we, here at WS...had not thought of this yet....or has it been discussed? It made me think of the many different angles/questions about this case we have not yet considered in this case...

    (the last video of Caylee with her greatgrandfather....she seems so tired)
    My thought to add to your post...is what if Caylee was already strapped into the car seat, alive, while the duct tape was being administered? Just a thought...I have no proof.

  3. #3
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    I just don't think a 2 yeard old could rip off duct tape from their own mouth, while it is attached to their hair. Have you ever had to pull a band aid off a boo-boo on a child? O..M.G. - I always had to use the snatch- and- pull- by- surprise method. Band aids hurt like heck, much less duct tape. Ouch! Not to say that Caylee could not have done it, but I think it would have been difficult.

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    This has been discussed on other threads. I believe on one discussing premeditation and possibly on one dedicated to duct tape. IMO the reason that Mr. Ashton mentioned the ability of a child that age to remove tape is to support the theory of restraint, hence supporting premeditation. The State of Florida ruled in Huck that is was not logical to assume duct tape would be placed "after" death, thus allowing the presumption that duct tape was used on a live victim. Mr. Ashton was setting up an additional aggravating factor to support the DP. By stating that Caylee would have had to be restrained, he can offer evidence to be considered that will support premeditation.

    Here is a thread where it has been discussed.
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...t=86507&page=5

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pattymarie View Post
    I thought that Jeff Ashton did an outstanding job depicting the "last moments." What struck me the most was that he pointed out the simple fact that an almost 3 yr. old could rip the tape off herself....unless physically/chemically restrained. Shocker, yes?

    After the initial shock of hearing this...I got to wondering why we, here at WS...had not thought of this yet....or has it been discussed? It made me think of the many different angles/questions about this case we have not yet considered in this case...

    (the last video of Caylee with her greatgrandfather....she seems so tired)
    What I found interesting is that Ashton referred to "either physically or chemically restrained"....

    Makes me wonder if we are going to hear more about the chloroform/syringe/Gatorade bottle in future doc dumps and that SA still thinks there is a relevance to it. I have read posts where some are stating that the reports only reflect trace amounts so probably not used on Caylee?

    If SA thought that, why would Ashton include "chemically" restrained as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kentjbkent View Post
    What I found interesting is that Ashton referred to "either physically or chemically restrained"....

    Makes me wonder if we are going to hear more about the chloroform/syringe/Gatorade bottle in future doc dumps and that SA still thinks there is a relevance to it. I have read posts where some are stating that the reports only reflect trace amounts so probably not used on Caylee?

    If SA thought that, why would Ashton include "chemically" restrained as well?
    Because he was just surmising that, given that she would be able to rip the tape off herself...and she didn't....that she had to be restrained one way or another....physically or chemically.... my guess...Xanax....at least....

  7. #7
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    I think we have now seen the reason why LDB in CA's depo asked so many questions about how manually dexterous Caylee was for her age. They needed to establish that she was able to pull off duct tape so that the jury would feel it was necessary to provide a physical or chemical restraint (ie: aggravated assault) and to cement the felony aspect of the death. Which I think JA did a good job of outlining.
    "Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices" - Voltaire

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    This is so heinous and...so sad....probably why JB seemed so forlorn in his interview with JVM....

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    If the tape was wrapped around her leg I doubt a child her age could have removed it and she never could have removed it from her hair, however, anything blocking her airway she would have fought with superhuman strength to remove. If she was conscious to do so. The ME will attest to that as will every other medical expert they call. Even lightly drugged, her instincts would be to breathe.
    She may not have succeeded in removing it, but she would have tried.

    I can't wait for the expert testimony. AL was completely off base today suggesting abuse couldn't have occurred because it wasn't evident on the skeletal remains. Fractures weren't evident, nothing more.

    Injustice for Caylee Marie Anthony.

    Copyright that Cindy

    Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot. Nothing is going to get better. It's not. Dr. Suess

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    Quote Originally Posted by TotallyObsessed View Post
    I just don't think a 2 yeard old could rip off duct tape from their own mouth, while it is attached to their hair. Have you ever had to pull a band aid off a boo-boo on a child? O..M.G. - I always had to use the snatch- and- pull- by- surprise method. Band aids hurt like heck, much less duct tape. Ouch! Not to say that Caylee could not have done it, but I think it would have been difficult.
    I kinda share your pov--part of my post on this subject from other thread

    The tape had to be pretty tough (if not impossible) for her to remove since it stayed attached for so many months & thru (they say) very unfavorable weather conditions.

    The above makes me believe she could have desperately tried (without success) to remove it..IOW..No need for restraints or to knock her out with ???
    Last edited by amysmom; 12-11-2009 at 10:24 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by sleutherontheside View Post
    This has been discussed on other threads. I believe on one discussing premeditation and possibly on one dedicated to duct tape. IMO the reason that Mr. Ashton mentioned the ability of a child that age to remove tape is to support the theory of restraint, hence supporting premeditation. The State of Florida ruled in Huck that is was not logical to assume duct tape would be placed "after" death, thus allowing the presumption that duct tape was used on a live victim. Mr. Ashton was setting up an additional aggravating factor to support the DP. By stating that Caylee would have had to be restrained, he can offer evidence to be considered that will support premeditation.

    Here is a thread where it has been discussed.
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...t=86507&page=5
    This topic has been discussed on 499 threads, so i changed this one to #500
    This topic has the ability to bring out the Bickersons, so please everyone it is an excellent topic always worthy of discussion.

    But can't we all just get along?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleBitty35 View Post
    My thought to add to your post...is what if Caylee was already strapped into the car seat, alive, while the duct tape was being administered? Just a thought...I have no proof.
    I wondered about the same thing on the car seat thread. There was fringe (chest?) hair on the tape so I thought that maybe she was taped to the seat.


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    Quote Originally Posted by JBean View Post
    This topic has been discussed on 499 threads, so i changed this one to #500
    This topic has the ability to bring out the Bickersons, so please everyone it is an excellent topic always worthy of discussion.

    But can't we all just get along?
    OH JBean....you didn't have to start another thread. I was just referring to another one for reference. I agree that this is a hotly debated and much discussed issue. I think we are now seeing the beginnings of real "mechanics" in this case playing out (from questions that seem odd in depositions to their motive being presented in the courtroom).

    Slightly OT, I have searched a number of times today for threads that are in place to continue discussion about these very key issues, and shocker.....they elude me. Where has this been discussed before? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Off to "work" the "tag mines".
    Last edited by sleutherontheside; 12-11-2009 at 10:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3doglady View Post
    I wondered about the same thing on the car seat thread. There was fringe (chest?) hair on the tape so I thought that maybe she was taped to the seat.
    I have always thought she did this to her in the trunk...not in a carseat... always thought she died in the trunk...while she was renting a video with Tony...... came back...saw she was (finally) dead...and then had to come up with a new scenario.... (poor Tony...had no idea what he was dealing with).

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleutherontheside View Post
    OH JBean....you didn't have to start another thread. I was just referring to another one for reference. I agree that this is a hotly debated and much discussed issue. I think we are now seeing the beginnings of real "mechanics" in this case playing out (from questions that seem odd in depositions to their motive being presented in the courtroom).

    Slightly OT, I have searched a number of times today for threads that are in place to continue discussion about these very key issues, and shocker.....they elude me. Where has this been discussed before? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Off to "work" the "tag mines".
    Hi SOS.
    I always do a title search on a key word. if that doesn't work, I do a post search on a key word and have it show threads.
    If tags are utilized they are another great search tool.

    The other threads are mainly closed due to the Bickersons. So, rather than bumping an old one, it is fine to continue discussion here.
    Since admission here is on a rolling basis, not everyone has discussed this so there is always room fo rmore discussion!

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