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Thread: AZ - Gabriel Johnson, 8 months, 26 Dec 2009 - last seen in Texas - #4

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    AZ - Gabriel Johnson, 8 months, 26 Dec 2009 - last seen in Texas - #4

    Please continue here.

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93746"]Thread 3[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93665"]Thread 2[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93421"]Thread 1[/ame]


    Thanks,

    Salem

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  3. #2
    Thank you Salem!

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    O/T - does anyone know an easy way to get the tags copied over?

    TIA,

    Salem

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    O/T - does anyone know an easy way to get the tags copied over?

    TIA,

    Salem
    Uh..not so easy but copy and paste 20 at a time will do it.

    ETA: I will do it.

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  9. #5
    Nothing really new, but a news article from today that i hadn't seen yet.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,582673,00.html

    Edit - Gabriel's face simply melts me. And I am a guy. I'm suppose to fight these emotions in public!
    Last edited by A_Closer_Look; 01-09-2010 at 08:10 PM.

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    The tags are now telling me that the number of tags are maxed out so I couldn't get them all copied over .... grrr, I sure hope we have the most important ones!

    ETA: Just looked a little closer and it looks like I am only allowed to add 20 tags so if someone else wants to have a go we can probably get more tags added?
    Last edited by elepher50; 01-09-2010 at 08:11 PM. Reason: Maximum tags

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    Quote Originally Posted by elepher50 View Post
    The tags are now telling me that the number of tags are maxed out so I couldn't get them all copied over .... grrr, I sure hope we have the most important ones!

    ETA: Just looked a little closer and it looks like I am only allowed to add 20 tags so if someone else wants to have a go we can probably get more tags added?
    I'll do it for you. All you do is copy and paste?

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  15. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Closer_Look View Post
    I completely respect your opinion on this, however, I am having a hard time piecing the following things (in no certain order) together with that scenario.

    Threatening Logan with "sign if you ever want to see your baby in a safe home"

    Bio child posting she thinks TPS is involved due to what she did to them.

    Step child posting that JS gained custody of H. through underhanded measures.

    The Smiths denying having any idea of the Nashville connection and then a couple of hours later admitting to knowing the exact Nashville connection, which just so happens to be a friend of theirs that has a history of at least one adoption where the father was revoked of his custodial rights in what appears a to be a shady way.

    The phone call from EJ to the Smiths. The one immediately following (according to TPS) the text to Logan claiming having killed Gabriel, telling TPS that she just made that claim to Logan but that the baby was indeed fine and safe. Why was she still in contact with them at this point, if she had really just fled and killed Gabe?

    The suddenly remembering key pieces of information all of a sudden, and now going back in to have memories extracted? memories that are so repressed... from 2 weeks ago?

    There's simply too many other pieces here. I just can't wrap my head around the Smiths being anything less than the shot callers on this one.

    I still think Gabriel is alive and I think that TPS knows exactly where he is, or at least was, when he was handed off. I think she was in touch with EJ through the entire AZ > TX > FL trip. I think LE is perfectly aware of this, and their involvement.

    Whether or not it goes deeper than just Gabriel, I don't know. For now I would be content with Gabe being brought home to Logan. After that, I hope everyone can find peace of mind regarding their involvement or lack thereof.
    I can explain each one if you are willing to consider them....

    I think they thought that he just might sign those papers if they threatened him with never seeing her or the baby again. They probably assumed he wanted Elizabeth back more than the baby. BUT he wanted his son more and scheduled an emergency hearing! I believe that they probably suggested or even encouraged Elizabeth to go underground to hide the baby from Logan since they knew there was a good chance he would get custody. That buys them more time to convince him.

    I think their prior adoption is irrelevant actually, you do not hear the mother of that child running to the media. In all likelihood both of the parents of that child had problems and that really was in the best interest of the child. We cant even really make assumptions on that since we dont know even know if it was child protection services who removed the child from their care to begin with. The law says they have to place a child with family if possible before foster care. The parents only have about a year now days to get themselves together before their parental rights are revoked. Possibly they encouraged the father to just make it easier and relinquish them sooner?

    She is smart enough to know LE is recording her calls, if she admits to them that Gabriel is dead who is going to help her? She may still naively believe they will help her get out of this mess if they still believe they can have the baby. Or maybe she realizes she is so screwed at this point the only help she might get is by manipulating them.

    Remembering things after the fact is common, and maybe they didnt remember them at all and they knew it all along. It is obvious they are still not grasping the seriousness of the issue, and the more they grasp possibly the more information they will share.
    Last edited by Bratlings; 01-09-2010 at 08:17 PM.

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    Thanks for the new thread Salem. I'm going to repost my ever so humble opinion, hope that's okay.

    I really don't think Tammi & Jack are into brokering babies or providing a surrogate service. I think this woman wanted a baby. I think she ran and responded to ads online, relied on word of mouth through friends, and eventually met up with our lil' nut case EJ. I think she probably mentioned to EJ that they had adopted and were looking to adopt again and maybe she told Elizabeth if she knew anyone considering adoption to please pass her card along to them. EJ probably told her that she was considering it and there the friendship begins. Then EJ fills Tammi & Jack full of crap about Logan and they swallow every bit of it, they really believed her. I believe Tammi did help her leave AZ with Gabriel and helped her find the underground through a church or women's shelter. I don't know if Tammi sent EJ away to hide Gabriel or to place him for adoption with another family but my guess is that she sent her away as a ploy to get Logan to sign those dam adoption papers. When that backfired I think EJ went through the shelter underground and placed Gabriel for adoption. I do think that the friend in Tenn...Janet Morris helped facilitate the adoption.
    I don't think Tammi knows where Gabriel is but I think she knows how he got to where he is and that is what is going to send her to jail. All jmo of course.

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  19. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by momtective View Post
    Thanks for the new thread Salem. I'm going to repost my ever so humble opinion, hope that's okay.

    I really don't think Tammi & Jack are into brokering babies or providing a surrogate service. I think this woman wanted a baby. I think she ran and responded to ads online, relied on word of mouth through friends, and eventually met up with our lil' nut case EJ. I think she probably mentioned to EJ that they had adopted and were looking to adopt again and maybe she told Elizabeth if she knew anyone considering adoption to please pass her card along to them. EJ probably told her that she was considering it and there the friendship begins. Then EJ fills Tammi & Jack full of crap about Logan and they swallow every bit of it, they really believed her. I believe Tammi did help her leave AZ with Gabriel and helped her find the underground through a church or women's shelter. I don't know if Tammi sent EJ away to hide Gabriel or to place him for adoption with another family but my guess is that she sent her away as a ploy to get Logan to sign those dam adoption papers. When that backfired I think EJ went through the shelter underground and placed Gabriel for adoption. I do think that the friend in Tenn...Janet Morris helped facilitate the adoption.
    I don't think Tammi knows where Gabriel is but I think she knows how he got to where he is and that is what is going to send her to jail. All jmo of course.
    I agree with pretty much everything you just said.

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  21. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by momtective View Post
    Thanks for the new thread Salem. I'm going to repost my ever so humble opinion, hope that's okay.

    I really don't think Tammi & Jack are into brokering babies or providing a surrogate service. I think this woman wanted a baby. I think she ran and responded to ads online, relied on word of mouth through friends, and eventually met up with our lil' nut case EJ. I think she probably mentioned to EJ that they had adopted and were looking to adopt again and maybe she told Elizabeth if she knew anyone considering adoption to please pass her card along to them. EJ probably told her that she was considering it and there the friendship begins. Then EJ fills Tammi & Jack full of crap about Logan and they swallow every bit of it, they really believed her. I believe Tammi did help her leave AZ with Gabriel and helped her find the underground through a church or women's shelter. I don't know if Tammi sent EJ away to hide Gabriel or to place him for adoption with another family but my guess is that she sent her away as a ploy to get Logan to sign those dam adoption papers. When that backfired I think EJ went through the shelter underground and placed Gabriel for adoption. I do think that the friend in Tenn...Janet Morris helped facilitate the adoption.
    I don't think Tammi knows where Gabriel is but I think she knows how he got to where he is and that is what is going to send her to jail. All jmo of course.
    If she did give him away to another couple through the same channels that you think TS sent her... dont you think she would be a bit angry that she gave the baby to someone else? TS's only motive to help Elizabeth is that she might eventually have the baby herself. By now I would think she would have turned on her and told all she knows. It is clear if Gabriel is ever found neither of them will ever see him again. And worse... This will definitely harm her chances of ever adopting another child!
    Last edited by Bratlings; 01-09-2010 at 08:25 PM.

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    Regarding Gabriel still being alive and with a new couple, and why they haven't turned him over yet. Nancy Grace has only started covering Gabriel's disappearance this week, so much for national media coverage. But what about in Texas, where if he's alive, he likely was left with someone? What is being done there in the media to get the public's attention?
    Rest in Peace
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    Quote Originally Posted by A_Closer_Look View Post
    Nothing really new, but a news article from today that i hadn't seen yet.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,582673,00.html

    Edit - Gabriel's face simply melts me. And I am a guy. I'm suppose to fight these emotions in public!
    Thanks for the link. As for you being a guy and admitting Gabriel's face melts you....it's refreshing to hear a guy be honest about stuff like that!

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  27. #14
    Please help me to understand why Tammi would have gone, almost in an instant, from obsessively seeking a baby for herself, to facilitating that baby going to someone else?

    I can't get there. I can't see what would have suddenly made her change her mind. And I don't see a change of mind in any of her actions or statements until yesterday or the day before when she said she didn't think adopting Gabriel was going to be possible.

    At what point do others see Tammi changed her mind, and what happened that she changed it?

    TIA

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  29. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by panthera View Post
    Regarding Gabriel still being alive and with a new couple, and why they haven't turned him over yet. Nancy Grace has only started covering Gabriel's disappearance this week, so much for national media coverage. But what about in Texas, where if he's alive, he likely was left with someone? What is being done there in the media to get the public's attention?
    I am confused about the connection with Texas to begin with... they all live in AZ right?

  30. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by BeanE View Post
    Please help me to understand why Tammi would have gone, almost in an instant, from obsessively seeking a baby for herself, to facilitating that baby going to someone else?

    I can't get there. I can't see what would have suddenly made her change her mind. And I don't see a change of mind in any of her actions or statements until yesterday or the day before when she said she didn't think adopting Gabriel was going to be possible.

    At what point do others see Tammi changed her mind, and what happened that she changed it?

    TIA
    Exactly!

  31. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by panthera View Post
    Regarding Gabriel still being alive and with a new couple, and why they haven't turned him over yet. Nancy Grace has only started covering Gabriel's disappearance this week, so much for national media coverage. But what about in Texas, where if he's alive, he likely was left with someone? What is being done there in the media to get the public's attention?
    I just realized when reading your post that usually we see news clips on people putting up posters. I don't think I've seen anything on this at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bratlings View Post
    If she did give him away to another couple through the same channels that you think TS sent her... dont you think she would be a bit angry that she gave the baby to someone else? TS's only motive to help Elizabeth is that she might have the baby herself.
    Yeah, I think Tammi is pizzed but she can't come out and say that because that would only further implicate her in this whole mess. I think Tammi's little plan blew up in her face and EJ took matters into her own hands and that's why Tammi put her in touch with Janet Morris. Maybe Janet is involved and maybe she isn't but someone handled that adoption and the fact that she has an adoption agency makes her my prime suspect. I don't think Gabriel is dead, I really believe he was adopted and the parents who have him now are going to be devastated when they find themselves right smack dab in the middle of this mess. Their hearts are going to be so broken to have to give him up to his Daddy. They and Gabriel along with Logan are the true innocents in this and I hope anyone and everyone else involved gets a lengthy prison sentence.

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  35. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by BeanE View Post
    Please help me to understand why Tammi would have gone, almost in an instant, from obsessively seeking a baby for herself, to facilitating that baby going to someone else?

    I can't get there. I can't see what would have suddenly made her change her mind. And I don't see a change of mind in any of her actions or statements until yesterday or the day before when she said she didn't think adopting Gabriel was going to be possible.

    At what point do others see Tammi changed her mind, and what happened that she changed it?

    TIA
    I can only speculate. But if TPS honestly believed that Logan was abusive to EJ or Gabriel, then I can see her believing that if she can't have him, placing him with somebody else would be in his best interest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by momtective View Post
    Yeah, I think Tammi is pizzed but she can't come out and say that because that would only further implicate her in this whole mess. I think Tammi's little plan blew up in her face and EJ took matters into her own hands and that's why Tammi put her in touch with Janet Morris. Maybe Janet is involved and maybe she isn't but someone handled that adoption and the fact that she has an adoption agency makes her my prime suspect. I don't think Gabriel is dead, I really believe he was adopted and the parents who have him now are going to be devastated when they find themselves right smack dab in the middle of this mess. Their hearts are going to be so broken to have to give him up to his Daddy. They and Gabriel along with Logan are the true innocents in this and I hope anyone and everyone else involved gets a lengthy prison sentence.
    BBM
    I don't think the adoptive couple, if there is one, are innocent. I doubt that Gabriel was put up for adoption with a traditional agency. They would have to know that what they are dealing with isn't on the up and up. And even if they haven't heard any of the news about the missing baby I am sure that someone around them has and would have pointed it out to them. I just can't see how someone would magically get a baby handed to them from the heavens and not question where it came from and if it was legal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanE View Post
    I just realized when reading your post that usually we see news clips on people putting up posters. I don't think I've seen anything on this at all.
    Putting up flyers, especially in San Antonio, would be tremendously helpful.

    We have not heard of any searches either, except for the house that was searched in Nashville.

    I really do think LE should start gearing up for some ground searches. At the San Antonio park and within the 3 mile radius of the Victoria phone ping. UNLESS LE is in contact with someone who has baby Gabriel.

    Salem

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  41. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by momtective View Post
    Yeah, I think Tammi is pizzed but she can't come out and say that because that would only further implicate her in this whole mess. I think Tammi's little plan blew up in her face and EJ took matters into her own hands and that's why Tammi put her in touch with Janet Morris. Maybe Janet is involved and maybe she isn't but someone handled that adoption and the fact that she has an adoption agency makes her my prime suspect. I don't think Gabriel is dead, I really believe he was adopted and the parents who have him now are going to be devastated when they find themselves right smack dab in the middle of this mess. Their hearts are going to be so broken to have to give him up to his Daddy. They and Gabriel along with Logan are the true innocents in this and I hope anyone and everyone else involved gets a lengthy prison sentence.

    It is not illegal to suggest that maybe the best way to avoid losing custody is to leave. Tammie's plan has definitely blown up in her face! What Elizabeth did after she left that house really cant implicate Tammie in anything unless she knows where Gabriel is and is lying about it now or when police first questioned her. But game over when police knock on the door she has nothing to gain by being quiet now. Even if she initially lied, she could have made a deal to tell what she knows and avoided any charges probably. I really think she doesnt know what Elizabeth really did do. Tammie is not some con artist, her morals and selfishness may be contemptible but she has no reason to destroy her life over a baby she cant have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bratlings View Post
    I am confused about the connection with Texas to begin with... they all live in AZ right?
    Yes, they do. But EJ travelled to San Antonio, TX and left her car there before catching a bus bound for Florida. Gabriel was last seen in San Antonio, TX. His car-seat was found in EJ's abandoned car. There might not be any connection if EJ didn't really find a new couple to adopt him there and did like she told Logan, killed him instead.
    Rest in Peace
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  45. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Closer_Look View Post
    I can only speculate. But if TPS honestly believed that Logan was abusive to EJ or Gabriel, then I can see her believing that if she can't have him, placing him with somebody else would be in his best interest.
    It appears to me that as of Dec 26 & 27, she thought she could have him. She was trying to get Logan to sign the papers, trying to get Eliz to come to her with Gabriel, having people call Eliz to tell her to come back to Tammi and to go to the custody hearing on Dec 28.

    Her first interview, after Eliz was arrested, sounds to me like she thought she could have Gabriel.

    That's how it looks to me. When do you believe she came to believe she couldn't have Gabriel? What, to you, made her think she couldn't have him?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanE View Post
    I just realized when reading your post that usually we see news clips on people putting up posters. I don't think I've seen anything on this at all.
    That's what I'm wondering. I've seen news articles coming out of Arizona, but who in Texas is going to be paying attention to them? If Gabriel really was handed off to somebody there, they might not even know who he is. So that led to my curiousity.
    Rest in Peace
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