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Thread: ME & NH - Sarah Rogers alias Marla Moon, 29, 13 Dec 2009 - #2

  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lavanda Dolce View Post
    To whomever asked about Sarah and her meds. She was off meds for only three weeks prior. She was not the only caretaker of her son, his father (Fritz) cared for Elias at home as well. Yes she has had previous serious episodes in which she didn't recognize family members. The only difference is the last bad one she was brought to a hospital in Florida and gave her name as "Marla Moon" and her ID told otherwise.
    How do you know all that to be "true"???

    I did read where she was "off" her meds all during her pregnancy with no ill effects apparently...

    besides...IF a person is that "bad" mentally how can they be left alone with a baby, a toddler?? Let's not forget the famous bi-polar case of Andrea Yates.....left alone to care for all those little kids, she went into a deep depression and drowned them...(and no I realize that not all/many bipolar people do this but I am stating an example)

    IF Sarah was this "bad" off mentally why was she left alone with their child??

    either she was very mentally ill (which it seems people want to prove) OR she wasn't....if she was "that" bad off..why was she out and about and even able to drive and be caretaker of their young child??

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  3. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lavanda Dolce View Post
    Whomever picked her up to give her a ride, if that is what occured, may not even know that she is a missing person or even from the area to know. For that matter, and unfortunately, people right in Clinton, ME may not even know who she is or her plight. That is why getting the posters out continually in every possible place is important. As is the media.
    I don't know how to find the post, but it seems her husband felt this was a real possiblity, he posted about the bogs and was looking for people to search there with dogs etc..

    I am pretty sure he said about the bogs...I remembered thinking about bogs in Ireland and "cranberry bog" commerical on tv

    does anyone else recall this??? thanks

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  5. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogicalMinds View Post
    I don't know how to find the post, but it seems her husband felt this was a real possiblity, he posted about the bogs and was looking for people to search there with dogs etc..

    I am pretty sure he said about the bogs...I remembered thinking about bogs in Ireland and "cranberry bog" commerical on tv

    does anyone else recall this??? thanks
    yeah, i do. its post # 288 in the first thread...says its 280ft. across with 6ft.deep ice holes and a drainage running thru it....


    eta: but then a local drove by the mile marker and reported to us that there is NO bog in the area that fc said that there was. fc said that the local was wrong, because he went there and saw it.... funny, now we here that the local was right....
    Last edited by nervous_nellie; 01-23-2010 at 09:27 PM. Reason: eta

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  7. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogicalMinds View Post
    I don't know how to find the post, but it seems her husband felt this was a real possiblity, he posted about the bogs and was looking for people to search there with dogs etc..

    I am pretty sure he said about the bogs...I remembered thinking about bogs in Ireland and "cranberry bog" commerical on tv

    does anyone else recall this??? thanks

    Yes, Sarah's husband, Bubba on WS, said there were bogs next to where the car was discovered. He talked about ice, water, bogs.
    God has a plan to help bring justice to the world -- and his plan is us.
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  9. #130
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    For references to Bubba's posts go to page 12, post 288 and continue to page 13.

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...Rogers&page=12

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  11. #131
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    For reference to more of Bubba's post go to page 14 where Bubba states it is a fact that she is no more. Also, a strange word, seance. Post #330

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...Rogers&page=14

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  13. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lavanda Dolce View Post

    No the manic state would not have passed by now. A deep state of confusion and/or continued voices could be ongoing and keeping her from reality. At one time in Sarah's past her manic episode was so severe she did not know or recognize her own husband or family. Her condition is very serious. I guess that is why her husband tried to explain...we are not talking about normal functioning people with a bipolar disorder. We are talking about a very serious case of bipolar-schizophrenia-paranoia combination that could put Sarah out of touch with reality and or just going through the motions of wandering among others in a deep state of cognitive dysfunction. Her case is of the most serious type.
    .
    respectfully snipped...

    when you say "no the manic state would not have passed by now"...HOW do you know that?? Most medical professionals would not do such an online diagnosis..
    from what we have been led to believe, Sarah was able to "function", she was sweet, loving, a good mom, an accomplished folk singer guitarist..so why say that the "manic state would not have passed by now"???

    Even in cases of just "regular" bipolar people may have a short or longer "phase"...but no one can determine when it might end JMO

    ~~~~~~~

    then you go on to say how "serious" her condition is....who told you that?? the husband, the family?? I don't think any of us are privy to her medical records so forgive me for being sceptical but it seems to me that poor Sarah's mental illness has grown by leaps and bounds in description here

    any possible question is answered by referring to the "mental illness" which is now not just bipolar but now is " very serious case of bipolar-schizophrenia-paranoia"...

    well ...let me again ask...why in the world was a woman so severely mentally ill allowed to be caretaker to her son, allowed to drive etc?? How was she able to be left alone if she was that apt to wander off or "not even know" her family members?? Sorry but this baffles me

    How was a woman so severely mentally ill able to get away from 4 or 5 adults and take off in a car...and why would her father who presumably knows how ill she is only get involved 5 weeks later??

    yes I do live in Florida so that is why I said "baker acted"...but it seems to me that if she was that mentally ill that they would have had her psychiatrist on hand

    what led up to the "arrest" ?? the dui?? what was her mental condition?? why were 4 or 5 people at the house..and why didn't someone stop her??

    I am sorry but things don't add up for me...

    another thing that doesn't add up is the "bogs" and water/ice holes or whatever...are they there or aren't they??

    None of US really know just what form her mental illness really took or how severe it was...we are only hearing what we hear. And...as I say, it does not add up for me

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  15. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogicalMinds View Post
    How do you know all that to be "true"???

    I did read where she was "off" her meds all during her pregnancy with no ill effects apparently...

    besides...IF a person is that "bad" mentally how can they be left alone with a baby, a toddler?? Let's not forget the famous bi-polar case of Andrea Yates.....left alone to care for all those little kids, she went into a deep depression and drowned them...(and no I realize that not all/many bipolar people do this but I am stating an example)

    IF Sarah was this "bad" off mentally why was she left alone with their child??

    either she was very mentally ill (which it seems people want to prove) OR she wasn't....if she was "that" bad off..why was she out and about and even able to drive and be caretaker of their young child??
    Sarah was not left alone with her child. She and her husband worked from home together. His mom came and helped care for Elias as well. Both families were fully aware of the support and needed assistance and were there to help. I don't know if she was on medication during her pregnancy, or not. I do know that post partum depression/psychosis can exacerbate an already existing mental condition. Hence is one of the reasons that Fritz chose to be at home.

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  17. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by nervous_nellie View Post
    yeah, i do. its post # 288 in the first thread...says its 280ft. across with 6ft.deep ice holes and a drainage running thru it....


    eta: but then a local drove by the mile marker and reported to us that there is NO bog in the area that fc said that there was. fc said that the local was wrong, because he went there and saw it.... funny, now we here that the local was right....

    We can only report what the State Trooper's have in their reports. The State Trooper states mile marker 140.5. There is no bog, no water. Further north at 141.5 there is a median that crosses over onto the southbound lanes. The place where Troopers sit and take radar. The Maine police/troopers are stating it was 140.5. When Fritz posted previously he and his friends went to 141.5. Hence the confusion because the tow truck driver told him 141.5. The tow truck driver, I believe, also stated a football field in length which was not accurate at all. It was maybe 30 feet from what I understand.

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  19. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by fhc View Post
    For reference to more of Bubba's post go to page 14 where Bubba states it is a fact that she is no more. Also, a strange word, seance. Post #330

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...Rogers&page=14
    He is extremely distraught, as would any spouse. Elias has a birthday coming up on January 27th and that is making this more difficult as each day goes by and gets closer to Elias birthday and his mom not home yet. It's a very difficult time for all. Please continue the prayers and please...please...please...post Sarah's missing posters, banners anywhere and everywhere possible. I mailed a bunch today to a lot of the guitar and music shops ((In lower Maine and NH) just thinking if even in a confused state she may wander into one out of some kind of recognition. Nobody wants to think that she may have met foul play or had an accident. Please don't give up hope. Continue to help by getting her poster out everywhere. Time is crucial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lavanda Dolce View Post
    Sarah was not left alone with her child. She and her husband worked from home together. His mom came and helped care for Elias as well. Both families were fully aware of the support and needed assistance and were there to help. I don't know if she was on medication during her pregnancy, or not. I do know that post partum depression/psychosis can exacerbate an already existing mental condition. Hence is one of the reasons that Fritz chose to be at home.
    Well someone said at some point on here that she had been off the meds during the pregnancy, I am pretty sure I remember that


    what sort of work did they do "from home"??? How was she able to function if she was this severely ill?? do you know Sarah and know the family and know that what they are saying is true??
    I don't

    the newspaper articles never mention all this stuff....I still wonder how 4 people let her run out with car keyes

    Again I feel it is odd that any possible question is answered by this mental illness which seems to get worse and worse the more we hear of it....if it was so bad why didn't they put out a BOLO for this mentally ill person who was endangered??

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  23. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogicalMinds View Post
    respectfully snipped...

    when you say "no the manic state would not have passed by now"...HOW do you know that?? Most medical professionals would not do such an online diagnosis..
    from what we have been led to believe, Sarah was able to "function", she was sweet, loving, a good mom, an accomplished folk singer guitarist..so why say that the "manic state would not have passed by now"???

    Even in cases of just "regular" bipolar people may have a short or longer "phase"...but no one can determine when it might end JMO

    ~~~~~~~

    then you go on to say how "serious" her condition is....who told you that?? the husband, the family?? I don't think any of us are privy to her medical records so forgive me for being sceptical but it seems to me that poor Sarah's mental illness has grown by leaps and bounds in description here

    any possible question is answered by referring to the "mental illness" which is now not just bipolar but now is " very serious case of bipolar-schizophrenia-paranoia"...

    well ...let me again ask...why in the world was a woman so severely mentally ill allowed to be caretaker to her son, allowed to drive etc?? How was she able to be left alone if she was that apt to wander off or "not even know" her family members?? Sorry but this baffles me

    How was a woman so severely mentally ill able to get away from 4 or 5 adults and take off in a car...and why would her father who presumably knows how ill she is only get involved 5 weeks later??

    yes I do live in Florida so that is why I said "baker acted"...but it seems to me that if she was that mentally ill that they would have had her psychiatrist on hand

    what led up to the "arrest" ?? the dui?? what was her mental condition?? why were 4 or 5 people at the house..and why didn't someone stop her??

    I am sorry but things don't add up for me...

    another thing that doesn't add up is the "bogs" and water/ice holes or whatever...are they there or aren't they??

    None of US really know just what form her mental illness really took or how severe it was...we are only hearing what we hear. And...as I say, it does not add up for me
    My reference to "no, her manic state would not have passed by now" was due to the fact that a poster stated that "by now her manic state would have passed." In essence I was replying to that poster that indeed her manic state could be continued and ongoing and not passed. I cannot go into details because the mod called it off topic. If you go back to the beginning even her husband tried to convey that we are not talking about "just bipolar." If you've ever known anyone in a high state of anxiety during a manic episode...sometimes even 4 adults cannot hold the person down or prevent them from running off

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  25. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogicalMinds View Post
    Well someone said at some point on here that she had been off the meds during the pregnancy, I am pretty sure I remember that


    what sort of work did they do "from home"??? How was she able to function if she was this severely ill?? do you know Sarah and know the family and know that what they are saying is true??
    I don't

    the newspaper articles never mention all this stuff....I still wonder how 4 people let her run out with car keyes

    Again I feel it is odd that any possible question is answered by this mental illness which seems to get worse and worse the more we hear of it....if it was so bad why didn't they put out a BOLO for this mentally ill person who was endangered??
    I don't think their job or work is relevant to the case.

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  27. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogicalMinds View Post
    Well someone said at some point on here that she had been off the meds during the pregnancy, I am pretty sure I remember that


    what sort of work did they do "from home"??? How was she able to function if she was this severely ill?? do you know Sarah and know the family and know that what they are saying is true??
    I don't

    the newspaper articles never mention all this stuff....I still wonder how 4 people let her run out with car keyes

    Again I feel it is odd that any possible question is answered by this mental illness which seems to get worse and worse the more we hear of it....if it was so bad why didn't they put out a BOLO for this mentally ill person who was endangered??
    One thing I have seen over and again in NH, that I have never seen in Ohio where I grew up...is the common practice of automatically leaving your keys in the car. If the car is in the garage...the keys are in the car. Strange..but common practice here.

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  29. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogicalMinds View Post
    Well someone said at some point on here that she had been off the meds during the pregnancy, I am pretty sure I remember that


    what sort of work did they do "from home"??? How was she able to function if she was this severely ill?? do you know Sarah and know the family and know that what they are saying is true??
    I don't

    the newspaper articles never mention all this stuff....I still wonder how 4 people let her run out with car keyes

    Again I feel it is odd that any possible question is answered by this mental illness which seems to get worse and worse the more we hear of it....if it was so bad why didn't they put out a BOLO for this mentally ill person who was endangered??
    When you say BOLO...you're referencing police to "be on the lookout"...correct? That was done. The police report was immediately filed and dispatch was notified. I'm not sure how many cars are in the Barrington Police Dept, however, small towns in NH is not the same city setup as what you are going to see in Miami where 70 cruisers receive a message over the dispatch. Here the most that are out from any one town is less than one hand...or two hands the most.

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  31. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lavanda Dolce View Post
    I don't think their job or work is relevant to the case.
    I asked because you brought it up

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lavanda Dolce View Post
    My reference to "no, her manic state would not have passed by now" was due to the fact that a poster stated that "by now her manic state would have passed." In essence I was replying to that poster that indeed her manic state could be continued and ongoing and not passed. I cannot go into details because the mod called it off topic. If you go back to the beginning even her husband tried to convey that we are not talking about "just bipolar." If you've ever known anyone in a high state of anxiety during a manic episode...sometimes even 4 adults cannot hold the person down or prevent them from running off
    >??? but really none of us know that her manic state would have or has passed...nor do we know that it "would not have passed"...that would vary from person to person and from incident to incident JMO

    realistically however...a full blown manic incident would in most cases usually lessen...it would be unlikely to continue at that high level for all this time JMO

    as far as the fact that 4 adults "sometimes" can't hold a person down...I am more interested in what happened in this case...did they even try to stop her physically or ???


    again....if she was this mentally ill I don't know why they didn't have things in "place">> with an attorney for a father it seems that they would have had "power of attorney" to get help for her...she could have gotten disability it would seem IF this mental illness is that severe...it seems they could have stopped her

    also some here have said that Sarah didn't drink or didn't have a drinking problem...yet she was just arrested for a dui??? That sounds like a problem

    the husband himself says things that contradict ...1) he maintains there are bogs/water there and 2) I reread his post from weeks ago and back then he seemed to want a "recovery" search, he feels that Sarah's body is out there ... rather than feeling that she could be alive and hiding in a shelter somewhere or living on the street

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  35. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogicalMinds View Post
    >??? but really none of us know that her manic state would have or has passed...nor do we know that it "would not have passed"...that would vary from person to person and from incident to incident JMO

    realistically however...a full blown manic incident would in most cases usually lessen...it would be unlikely to continue at that high level for all this time JMO

    as far as the fact that 4 adults "sometimes" can't hold a person down...I am more interested in what happened in this case...did they even try to stop her physically or ???


    again....if she was this mentally ill I don't know why they didn't have things in "place">> with an attorney for a father it seems that they would have had "power of attorney" to get help for her...she could have gotten disability it would seem IF this mental illness is that severe...it seems they could have stopped her

    also some here have said that Sarah didn't drink or didn't have a drinking problem...yet she was just arrested for a dui??? That sounds like a problem

    the husband himself says things that contradict ...1) he maintains there are bogs/water there and 2) I reread his post from weeks ago and back then he seemed to want a "recovery" search, he feels that Sarah's body is out there ... rather than feeling that she could be alive and hiding in a shelter somewhere or living on the street
    By law, you cannot hold a person down. You can be charged with domestic violence, or a host of other charges. If an adult wants to leave...they are permitted to do so...regardless of their condition. You cannot hold them down. You cannot lay a hand on another human being without potential charges.

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  37. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogicalMinds View Post
    >??? but really none of us know that her manic state would have or has passed...nor do we know that it "would not have passed"...that would vary from person to person and from incident to incident JMO

    realistically however...a full blown manic incident would in most cases usually lessen...it would be unlikely to continue at that high level for all this time JMO

    as far as the fact that 4 adults "sometimes" can't hold a person down...I am more interested in what happened in this case...did they even try to stop her physically or ???


    again....if she was this mentally ill I don't know why they didn't have things in "place">> with an attorney for a father it seems that they would have had "power of attorney" to get help for her...she could have gotten disability it would seem IF this mental illness is that severe...it seems they could have stopped her

    also some here have said that Sarah didn't drink or didn't have a drinking problem...yet she was just arrested for a dui??? That sounds like a problem

    the husband himself says things that contradict ...1) he maintains there are bogs/water there and 2) I reread his post from weeks ago and back then he seemed to want a "recovery" search, he feels that Sarah's body is out there ... rather than feeling that she could be alive and hiding in a shelter somewhere or living on the street
    Yes. You are correct. That is what he stated. That is not what the police reports state. They state it was at 140.5, not 141.5 where he searched with his friends. This is very difficult for he and the family. It's even more difficult for them to read what is posted. We can't change what one may feel when they are distraught. The waiting is a horrible and grueling time. Have you ever had a family member that was supposed to be home by 8pm and it was going on 9:30 pm? You know all the thoughts that run through your mind? Imagine how it feels for it to be a month. It was not 5 weeks for her father to come. She went missing Dec 13. They were not aware her car was found for nearly a week. They assumed she was out driving around wandering or visiting places unknown to them. It was a shock to learn her car was found the same day...but to not learn that until nearly a week later. The Barrington police were (and are) very helpful and was at the house with Fritz nearly every day to update. Why it took Maine so long to notify is anyone's guess. Maybe because the car was Florida registerd. Maybe the file sat on a desk. We don't know.

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  39. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogicalMinds View Post
    >??? but really none of us know that her manic state would have or has passed...nor do we know that it "would not have passed"...that would vary from person to person and from incident to incident JMO

    realistically however...a full blown manic incident would in most cases usually lessen...it would be unlikely to continue at that high level for all this time JMO

    as far as the fact that 4 adults "sometimes" can't hold a person down...I am more interested in what happened in this case...did they even try to stop her physically or ???


    again....if she was this mentally ill I don't know why they didn't have things in "place">> with an attorney for a father it seems that they would have had "power of attorney" to get help for her...she could have gotten disability it would seem IF this mental illness is that severe...it seems they could have stopped her

    also some here have said that Sarah didn't drink or didn't have a drinking problem...yet she was just arrested for a dui??? That sounds like a problem

    the husband himself says things that contradict ...1) he maintains there are bogs/water there and 2) I reread his post from weeks ago and back then he seemed to want a "recovery" search, he feels that Sarah's body is out there ... rather than feeling that she could be alive and hiding in a shelter somewhere or living on the street
    Yes. You are correct. That is what he stated. That is not what the police reports state. They state it was at 140.5, not 141.5 where he searched with his friends. This is very difficult for he and the family. It's even more difficult for them to read what is posted. We can't change what one may feel when they are distraught. The waiting is a horrible and grueling time. Have you ever had a family member that was supposed to be home by 8pm and it was going on 9:30 pm? You know all the thoughts that run through your mind? Imagine how it feels for it to be a month. It was not 5 weeks for her father to come. She went missing Dec 13. They were not aware her car was found for nearly a week. They assumed she was out driving around wandering or visiting places unknown to them. It was a shock to learn her car was found the same day...but to not learn that until nearly a week later. The Barrington police were (and are) very helpful and was at the house with Fritz nearly every day to update. Why it took Maine so long to notify is anyone's guess. Maybe because the car was Florida registered. Maybe the file sat on a desk. We don't know.

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  41. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogicalMinds View Post
    I asked because you brought it up
    You asked specifically "what work did they do from home?" I did not bring it up. I stated it was irrelevant to the case. My comment about they both worked from home was due to questioning as to why was she unattended with the baby if she was so seriously ill. My response was, she was not unattended. The husband was home at all times. They both worked from home. What their actual jobs are is what I am saying has no relevance. Sorry for the confusion.
    Last edited by Lavanda Dolce; 01-24-2010 at 02:05 AM.

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  43. #147
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    I really don't feel there is anything more to contribute to this thread that hasn't already been stated or known. Should I hear of more news to report I will certainly alert you. For now the most helpful way that anyone can do is please keep getting her banner,posters and pic out in every possible way. Thank you all. I can assure you that those who are praying for Sarah's safe return and by helping to get her missing status out to the public...that her family is very grateful.
    Last edited by hoppyfrog; 01-24-2010 at 01:30 PM. Reason: TOS/departure

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    with all due respect lavanda i think its only fair to realize that you are working for the family putting out the fliers and posters etc. and i think that is WONDERFUL, really, i do. but realize also that you might be just slightly biased in favor of the family for whatever reasons. and that is ok...no problem there. however, most all of the things that keep getting posted as FACT cannot be backed up with proof. and until there is some sort of proof, this thread is for the discussion of ALL the things that the family said, ALL the things we have read in the paper. if they find what we are discussing as upsetting then they should not read this thread anymore. if they need support, which im sure that they must need emotional support, please go to the FAMILY SUPPORT THREAD, where they can post freely and where the families feeling are the number one priority. none of the posters are doing anything wrong by discussing info provided by the family. im sorry that the family wants to change all the info...the info cannot just be deleted out of this thread...people are going to want to discuss it... and if its all going to be explained away - then there is going to have to be info that makes sense and not cause even more questions....
    Last edited by hoppyfrog; 01-24-2010 at 01:31 PM.

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    Thanks Nellie , well said

    another "confusing" thing.....from the start we have been told repeatedly that Sarah was only gone for a "few hours" during her other manic episodes

    yet now it is now said that the family did not worry as much thinking she was off riding around or whatever cause they were not told about the car being found...bur really wouldn't her week long absence alone be enough to "worry" them ?? IF she had only been gone for a short time before??

    I feel as if there is a lot we don't know here...from the start it seemed odd, then we learned "bipolar".....then we learn she has other problems...paranoia now and "schizophrenic"....which in itself is confusing. I do wonder if families want to keep some of this stuff "quiet" to "protect' the person?? I don't know..but I think that IF it was put out right from the start that Sarah was mentally ill and in the throes of a severe "breakdown" that they might have gotten some more media coverage

    when an adult takes off the first thought is "they want a break"...they are running away, having an affair or whatever. This seems to be a case of someone who is mentally ill.

    The one thing I still maintain is that NO matter what her mental state, her body was "only human">> in 10 degree weather with winds whipping sandals and beach shorts could only work for a short while and that is NOT JMO that is a physical fact

    which is why I have asked (repeatedly) about what Sarah actually "packed" and had in the car?? and speaking of that...IF she had just returned with the car from her DUI arrest....and had 4 (or 5?) adults in the house, how did she have time to "pack" anything?? While she was packing couldn't someone have hidden the car keys or somehow disconnected the battery or whatever??

    As far as the idea that she could not be "restrained" without people being arrested...I don't really know if that applies in a case like this...wouldn't keeping a mentally ill person from driving be taken into consideration?

    Are there "bogs" or "ice holes" or place you can fall thru the ground there?? Maybe like underground caves or something that have openings ?? I am thinking that a "bog" is sort of like a "cold" swamp???

    I don't know much about New England (and I doubt if Sarah did either...I do know that if it is 60 degrees I am cold, and in the 40's miserable and so is everyone in Florida...we are happy now it is warm/hot and in the 80's as usual...I still feel that she could NOT get far in what she was wearing in 10 degree weather)

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    yes, it does sound as tho sarah is mentally ill... to what extent we really dont know.... and just because she is mentally ill does not mean that someone did not or could not do something bad to her... so, since NO ONE knows where sarah is i think that is a pretty good reason to discuss the possibilities. if being mentally ill could protect people from human predators, wow, that would be great!!
    also, i have a hard time believing that if she was so mentally ill and had a history of taking off that her husband would be in the habit of leaving the car keys in the ignition.... in his post i think he said that he was ordered to give the her her keys back, as tho he had been keeping them out of her reach...so lets hope thats not how she was able to take off...

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