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  1. #1
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    A Friendly Reminder

    Many years ago, I would from time to time, remind the posters who were calling others "BORG" and almost UN American for their accusations of the Ramseys, that here on the internet and on the "discussion" forums, we are NOT inside a courtroom and we can opine however we like. It is our constitutional right to do so, and if anything at all it is the AMERICAN way. It is our freedom of speech. I stopped posting on that topic as it grew tiresome to remind others over and over again.

    I have since seen many posts where others are browbeaten for posting against the "presumption of innocence" in this country.

    The other night, while watching the Dan Abrams report, his closing argument reminded me again of my old, tiresome arguments and I thought it would be worth posting for those who tend to feel that they must be politically correct when speaking their opinions. WE ARE NOT IN A COURT OF LAW.

    I brought the link here so that others can be reminded by someone other than myself that they need not feel bad or intimidated by their opinions. Dan Abrams put it so much better than I ever did.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5343998/
    This is my opinion only
    This post may not be copied to any other forum

    God Bless America

  2. #2
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    Thank you Barbara!

    If the suspects refuse to cooperate with the LE, while giving interviews and hiring a publicitist, hiring top criminal lawyers, it always raises red flags with me.

    It's too difficult to presume innocence when we read of other suspects who cooperated immediately with the LE, no matter how 'embarassing' or 'inconvient' or 'painful' it makes the suspects feel. Innocent suspects do anything to clear themselves and get the focus back on the case. Guilty suspects will do anything to thwart the LE getting 'too' close. The focus changes to protecting their feelings and not on the victim.
    Last edited by Show Me; 07-03-2004 at 11:06 AM. Reason: typo
    -
    My opinion and nothing but my opinion.

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    You can also purchase a weather radio which will inform you of severe weather even if your electricity goes out. Runs on batteries of course.

  3. #3
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    That commentary hit home with me. About 10 years ago, I served on a Federal Jury here in Brooklyn.

    There were seven defendants charged with multiple crimes ranging from gun charges, extortion, assault, etc. The prosecutors, while diligent and sincere, failed to provide enough real hard evidence to convict them on many of the more serious charges.

    We all KNEW they did it, we all KNEW that this was a really bad group of men, evidenced by other things, but because we were JURORS in a Court of Law, we found them NOT Guilty on many of the charges because the prosecutor just couldn't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

    It broke all of our hearts, but we did what we were instructed to do. I have no doubt that after their minimal jail time for the minor charges that we did convict them on, they are still out there (if not in prison again) committing crimes.

    This was a 22 day trial. The defendants were the most despicable humans you NEVER want to meet and while we could have sent them away for a very long time, we followed the laws of the land and were forced to a Not Guilty verdict.

    I think about it to this day, but never regret the verdict as it was the legal one.
    This is my opinion only
    This post may not be copied to any other forum

    God Bless America

  4. #4
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    Barbara, thanks for posting that. Great commentary.

    Of course, in the Ramsey case, the "presumption of innocence" sanctimoniously spewed by Ramsey defenders only applies to The Ramseys... lol.

    Abrams: For to us presume someone innocent is for to us presume the authorities got it wrong whenever they arrest someone. Iím not willing to assume that unless Iím a juror. Itís a legal fiction that was designed for the courtroom.
    The intruder is innocent! JMO

  5. #5
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    The Ramsey's portrayed themselves as being right wing extremists when they refused to cooperate. Don Paugh loaded two pistols on the day of Jonbenet's funeral to protect his family. Was he expecting a shoot out with government agents? LOL

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawna
    Don Paugh loaded two pistols on the day of Jonbenet's funeral to protect his family. Was he expecting a shoot out with government agents? LOL
    OR.....due to my own suspicions about Mr. Paugh, perhaps he was preparing for his own need to defend HIMSELF. He could have been worried Patsy might get just a tad too stoned, be in front of the cameras and say the wrong thing

    It's a thought
    This is my opinion only
    This post may not be copied to any other forum

    God Bless America

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbara
    OR.....due to my own suspicions about Mr. Paugh, perhaps he was preparing for his own need to defend HIMSELF. He could have been worried Patsy might get just a tad too stoned, be in front of the cameras and say the wrong thing

    It's a thought
    My thought exactly.
    The intruder is innocent! JMO

  8. #8
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    2 cases

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbara

    This was a 22 day trial. The defendants were the most despicable humans you NEVER want to meet and while we could have sent them away for a very long time, we followed the laws of the land and were forced to a Not Guilty verdict.
    This makes for an interesting comparison between the 2 cases, and your opinions.

    Fed. case.............................Ramsey case......... bad people...................................good people ( as evidenced from past behavior)............probably lied.........................probably lied ............. .... no hard evidence............................no hard evidence ( some hair and fiber evidence seems to inplicate the R's, some seems to distance them. Other suspects existed who had somewhat similar handwriting.)..................................... .................................................. .......................voted not guilty@...................?????????????*

    @ You said they no doubt were guilty,
    * Do you then feel that the Ramseys are guilty, but wouldn't be convicted in a trial? Its interesting because the 2 cases are similar, with the only difference being that one case had bad people and the other, good people. Thinking that the bad people are guilty is logical, but is it logical to think that the good people are guilty also?
    Last edited by vicktor; 07-04-2004 at 09:39 PM. Reason: hjard to read
    This is my opinion, and change is good.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by vicktor
    This makes for an interesting comparison between the 2 cases, and your opinions.

    Fed. case.............................Ramsey case......... bad people...................................good people ( as evidenced from past behavior)............probably lied.........................probably lied ............. .... no hard evidence............................no hard evidence ( some hair and fiber evidence seems to inplicate the R's, some seems to distance them. Other suspects existed who had somewhat similar handwriting.)..................................... .................................................. .......................voted not guilty@...................?????????????*

    @ You said they no doubt were guilty,
    * Do you then feel that the Ramseys are guilty, but wouldn't be convicted in a trial? Its interesting because the 2 cases are similar, with the only difference being that one case had bad people and the other, good people. Thinking that the bad people are guilty is logical, but is it logical to think that the good people are guilty also?
    Yes, I believe the Ramseys are guilty of "something". The evidence is not sufficient enough to convict any one of them of this crime and without that, there is no way of knowing WHO committed the murder and WHO covered it up. It has nothing to do with "bad people" and "good people".

    The case I described just happened to be with defendants with violent histories of assaults and other crimes. The convictions came from evidence presented for the lesser charges, and while there WAS evidence of weapons, and brutality etc., it wasn't sufficient enough to identify them on a tape (audio and video was fuzzy and unclear) presented as evidence, so while we "believed" it was likely these defendants, it wasn't proof positive and we had to give a "not guilty" verdict.

    My point is that while I believe the Ramseys are up to their eyeballs in this crime, given the "official evidence" that LE is willing to back up, and that we, the public know, there is no way the Ramseys would be convicted in a court of law.

    The point also being that the "lynch mob mentality" that is used so often to describe those of us who believe the Ramseys guilty is crude, juvenile and unfair. The vast majority of us "BORG" are intelligent and proper citizens who would do the right thing in a court of law.

    There is, in this case, no evidence of an intruder that LE is willing to back up and with the Ramsey evidence able to be explained away because they live there, no jury would convict them at this point.

    But they are still guilty.

    For the record: I don't believe the Ramseys are particularly "good people"
    This is my opinion only
    This post may not be copied to any other forum

    God Bless America