If Elizabeth Acted Alone, What Did She Do With Gabriel?

If Elizabeth Acted Alone, What Did She Do With Gabriel?

LE announced in the past few days that they do not believe the Smiths were involved in Gabe's disappearance or know where Gabe is. That would leave two possibilities of what happened to Gabe: Elizabeth harmed Gabe, or she acted on her own to give him to someone else.

This thread is to sleuth who Eliz may have given Gabe to, and how she may have found them, without the Smiths' involvement in what ultimately happened to Gabe.

The goal of this thread is to try to develop info, leads, and tips that may be helpful in finding Gabe.

Example considerations:
- what type of person would accept a baby illegally from someone else? what is their motive? how would Eliz have found these different types of people what types of people can we rule out? what types of people are most likely for this case?
- when is Eliz most likely to have made the decision to give Gabe away? how could Eliz have found someone in a short timeframe? in a longer timeframe?
- if Eliz gave Gabe to someone to keep short term (hide) and then give back, who might that be? A friend? A relative?

If you don't think this is what happened to Gabe, here are some threads to visit:

Discussion of whether or not Eliz found an adoptive couple on her own:
Did Elizabeth find an adoptive couple on her own?
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94891"]Did Elizabeth find an adoptive couple on her own? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


Discussion of whether or not Eliz harmed Gabriel:
Did Elizabeth kill Gabriel?
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94551"]Did Elizabeth kill Gabriel? POLL ADDED - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


General Case Theories:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94563"]General case theories - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


Thank you!
BeanE

sadly, my answer is very simple, He is no longer with us. I think the couple in the park was just a conveinent excuse, brought on by the whole idea of adopting him out.

1- Eliz gave Gabriel to Someone who she coincidentally happened to run into:
1.a- in Tempe
1.b- between Tempe and San Antonio
1.c- in San Antonio

2- Eliz gave Gabriel to Someone. Eliz sought out Someone:
2.a- Eliz may have advertised on Craigslist, and Someone contacted her.
2.b- Eliz may have answered Someone's ad on Craiglist.
2.c- Eliz may have advertised online somewhere other than Craigslist.
2.d- Eliz may have answered an ad somewhere other than Craigslist.
2.e- Eliz may have known someone for a period of time who was willing to take Gabriel.

Eliz could have found Someone
- while she was in Tempe, prior to Dec 8
- while she was in Tempe, from Dec 8 to Dec 18
- while she was on the road, Dec 18 to Dec 22
- after she got to San Antonio

Eliz gave Gabriel to Someone:
- selling him, either directly to Someone, or for Someone to sell Gabriel to Someone Else
- giving him for a legal or illegal adoption
- giving him to be in turn given to Someone Else, with or without Eliz's knowledge

- Eliz gave Gabriel to Someone to hold/hide to hurt Logan, with the intent that Gabriel would be returned, at a specified or unspecified time.

- Eliz gave Gabriel to Someone to hold/hide until such time as someone could 'adopt' him.

Who Has Gabriel? Looking at the type of person who would take or receive a baby, may give us some clues to avenues to explore.
Someone or Someone Else is a person who may:
- want to 'adopt' a child to live with them as a family. May think it can be a legal adoption, or may know it can not be a legal adoption.
- be a pedophile
- be a child trafficker
- be a child pimp (I don't know what these people are called)
- a friend or acquantance of Eliz's, a former teacher, counselor, co-worker, mentor, drug dealer?, pimp?

If Elizabeth had worked alone, that being a big if.

No matter how much spite you have for a partner at any given time, someone who has a child wouldn't just palm them off onto strangers.

Going from the Audio (interveiw) she's saying alot more than she lets on. Her vauge responses when questioned about Gabriel point blank leads my gut instinct to think the following.

A > Foul play.

B > She has left Gabriel with someone close to her, a freind or someone she's networked with via other POI.

I at this point can't shake the feeling, of members of a religion. Welfare programs etc. If they are unknowing about the situation due to her omitting the whole story then they have a tendency to act without questioning or delving through the backstory.

It is possible they thought Gabriel was in danger and they acted on that, rather than to seek out other partys related to Gabriel directly.

It wouldn't be difficult for a "pretty" girl like her to reach out when she's in trouble, She's young as well, so Older people would take pity on her & offer their assistance. Basically if a young woman comes in " hysterical, or out of their minds " with a child, people tend to act now & think later.

BeanE said:

Who Has Gabriel? Looking at the type of person who would take or receive a baby, may give us some clues to avenues to explore.
Someone or Someone Else is a person who may:
- want to 'adopt' a child to live with them as a family. May think it can be a legal adoption, or may know it can not be a legal adoption.
- be a pedophile
- be a child trafficker
- be a child pimp (I don't know what these people are called)
- a friend or acquantance of Eliz's, a former teacher, counselor, co-worker, mentor, drug dealer?, pimp?

Click to expand...

Under who has Gabriel- it could also be someone who may have a record and/or someone that is desperate to adopt a baby but has been turned down due to a background check. Maybe sleuthing would be adoptive parents that have been rejected by adoption agencies would lead to something if that information is available anywhere.

This is just a random theory:

I think the fact that EJ knew the name of Raymond Russell Park is significant. I don't think non-natives would know the name of that park. Since it is close to a major attraction, Six Flags, a major freeway and yet isolated it seems like an ideal place to transfer a baby.

Also of consideration is the fact that Laredo is approximately 150 miles away from SA. Is it possible a couple from the interior of Mexico desiring a baby could have taken Gabriel into Mexico to raise as their own? Are birth certificates for babies checked at the border?

A religious group that doesn't interact with the outside world seems a distinct possibility too. Not just the commune, compound-type living arrangements that house whole communities but any group holding an irreverence for the news media and viewing it as a form of corruption could still be unaware of the whole news story.

I'm with you, though, and think that even with a very underdeveloped sense of attachment to her child, EJ would still want some assurances that he wouldn't be mistreated. Maybe a friend or a friend of a friend or just someone three more recommendations removed. Acting alone, when the go moment occurred seems possible but I just can't see her at her young age, no matter how computer savvy, being able to coordinate an untraceable underground placement without someone sharing information or guiding her as how to do it!

Food For Thought :

Elizabeth had been trying to adopt Gabriel out. Pending Logan gaining full custody, is it possible that she simply became frustrated and left Gabriel in the care of the public health system at all ?

Kids do tend to fall through cracks all the time, Gabriel is a few months old, it's not like he'd be able to speak up about having a father.

Elizabeth herself said " it pushed her over the edge " , then out of spite she fabricated a story about a couple she met, in a random place, which to be frank she doesn't even sound like she knows where, just to cover ?

Is there any description of what this mystery couple looks like at all ?

Harmony2 said:

This is just a random theory:

I think the fact that EJ knew the name of Raymond Russell Park is significant. I don't think non-natives would know the name of that park. Since it is close to a major attraction, Six Flags, a major freeway and yet isolated it seems like an ideal place to transfer a baby.

Also of consideration is the fact that Laredo is approximately 150 miles away from SA. Is it possible a couple from the interior of Mexico desiring a baby could have taken Gabriel into Mexico to raise as their own? Are birth certificates for babies checked at the border?

Click to expand...

It was Yami the reporter who gave the name of Raymond Russell. I don't think we have anything that it came from Eliz.

I think Mexico is a good possibility. MissingGabe told me that there is some thought that Eliz was originally headed to Mexico, but that something went wrong, and she ended up in San Antonio.

There's a big Mexican market in San Antonio called El Mercado. I've been there. I think it's a top candidate for a place Eliz would have been likely to go to, to look for someone to give Gabe away to, in a short time frame.

O/T - so good to see you here, my friend

kileyizzle said:

Is there any description of what this mystery couple looks like at all ?

Click to expand...

Here's everything Eliz said in the recorded jail interview with the news reporter about the couple:

E: (Pause) Um, because I... when I left him with these people... umm they... I trusted them.

E: (Pause) What do you mean why? I, I, I believe in my heart they're good people.

E: It was the same thing. They were just reached out to me and they seemed like they cared.

E: I met them in San Antonio.

E: They came... they approached me, and they came up to me. I was out alone with the baby. At the park.

E: They, I was upset, I was crying, and I, I, I, I've been approached before um in the same situation with Tammi. Um, and they just said, is everything okay? And I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do, and I was just a wreck, and they were just reaching out to me, and, you know, offering their help, and just listening, and I was just crying like crazy and...

E: Um, yeah. Because they, they were a couple and I, um I know how much people who don't have their own children just want a baby and they can't have their own babies, and I just had a good experience with Tammi and I, I didn't feel any reason to feel anything that wasn't right.

E: (long pause) I mean... when you give up your child for adoption, you don't really... know where the people live or anything.

Reminder to PLEASE stay on the topic of this thread. There are plenty of places to discuss other angles involving the Smith's.

chell said:

A religious group that doesn't interact with the outside world seems a distinct possibility too. Not just the commune, compound-type living arrangements that house whole communities but any group holding an irreverence for the news media and viewing it as a form of corruption could still be unaware of the whole news story.

I'm with you, though, and think that even with a very underdeveloped sense of attachment to her child, EJ would still want some assurances that he wouldn't be mistreated. Maybe a friend or a friend of a friend or just someone three more recommendations removed. Acting alone, when the go moment occurred seems possible but I just can't see her at her young age, no matter how computer savvy, being able to coordinate an untraceable underground placement without someone sharing information or guiding her as how to do it!

Click to expand...

ITA.

IMO, EJ was nothing more than a puppet, she reached out, without a doubt in my mind.

Harmony2 & Chell, Chills, from reading your theorys.

It is very feasable that the aim was to get Gabriel across the border to avoid him being found. But how would she contact those people?

Also just another thought , is it possible EJ was suffering from Post natal Depression ?

kileyizzle said:

Also just another thought , is it possible EJ was suffering from Post natal Depression ?

Click to expand...

Post Partum Depression discussion in this thread:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94626"]Background and Psych Profile- Elizabeth Johnson - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

One thing I was thinking of. How many people know someone that wants to adopt a baby? When I was younger I adopted my first son and it seemed like I knew a lot of people that wanted to adopt. Maybe because of my situation but I would guess that if she met someone along the way and started talking about what was going on, someone may have known a couple that they knew wanted a baby. It is possible that it happened that way. Kind of far fetched but possible. Why that couple didn't go through regular means, like a agency could have been cost, not elligable for what ever reasons (age, background check), not wanting the long wait. Are there people that would be willing to do it illegaly and keep the child hidden? I can imagine. When we adopted our son, it took 6 months for the adoption to be finalized. I was scared to death the birth mother would change her mind and even thought of running if she tried to get him back. Thank God that didn't happen but I know how it feels to bond so much with an adopted child that you would do anything not to lose him, just like you would with a biological child. You don't always think straight.

Discounting the adoption theory for just this once -

It could be possible, pending her history of mental illness, that she just snapped.

Bipolar is a nasty disease, because when your up, your up! Everything in the world is wonderful. Perhaps she stopped taking her meds. And then you get down. When your down, you hit rock bottom, and keep falling.

Maybe Gabriel was the only thing she felt she had control of in her life ?

Perhaps she didn't want Logan to have him because he in her frame of mind was one of the people that hurt her.

What do you do when your aware of how much someone cares for something, your hurt, your angry, not thinking straight. You ruin it.

We are all praying that Gabriel is alive & safe.

But we can't discount her mental instability or the theory that she may have just snapped & lashed out at Gabriel, taken it too far & skuttled away.

This is a good question, if she didn't have help...what did she do with him?

I think that she could have found someone to take Gabe, I really do. Tammi may have helped her with this part, without knowing she was helping. Tammi has a problem shutting up, and may have babbled on about things that were happening in MX while she was there and given EJ ideas, or leads on baby brokers without meaning to.

I also think that she could have killed him, but not in a hands on way. I don't believe for one second that she suffocated him. I think she is capable of throwing in a dumpster while still alive or simply leaving him somewhere to die.
I'm sorry, I don't like typing dead Gabriel scenarios, but I do think she is capable of that much.

BeanE said:

1- Eliz gave Gabriel to Someone who she coincidentally happened to run into:
1.a- in Tempe
1.b- between Tempe and San Antonio
1.c- in San Antonio

2- Eliz gave Gabriel to Someone. Eliz sought out Someone:
2.a- Eliz may have advertised on Craigslist, and Someone contacted her.
2.b- Eliz may have answered Someone's ad on Craiglist.
2.c- Eliz may have advertised online somewhere other than Craigslist.
2.d- Eliz may have answered an ad somewhere other than Craigslist.
2.e- Eliz may have known someone for a period of time who was willing to take Gabriel.

Eliz could have found Someone
- while she was in Tempe, prior to Dec 8
- while she was in Tempe, from Dec 8 to Dec 18
- while she was on the road, Dec 18 to Dec 22
- after she got to San Antonio

Eliz gave Gabriel to Someone:
- selling him, either directly to Someone, or for Someone to sell Gabriel to Someone Else
- giving him for a legal or illegal adoption
- giving him to be in turn given to Someone Else, with or without Eliz's knowledge

- Eliz gave Gabriel to Someone to hold/hide to hurt Logan, with the intent that Gabriel would be returned, at a specified or unspecified time.

- Eliz gave Gabriel to Someone to hold/hide until such time as someone could 'adopt' him.

Who Has Gabriel? Looking at the type of person who would take or receive a baby, may give us some clues to avenues to explore.
Someone or Someone Else is a person who may:
- want to 'adopt' a child to live with them as a family. May think it can be a legal adoption, or may know it can not be a legal adoption.
- be a pedophile
- be a child trafficker
- be a child pimp (I don't know what these people are called)
- a friend or acquantance of Eliz's, a former teacher, counselor, co-worker, mentor, drug dealer?, pimp?

Click to expand...

But if Elizabeth had help from the "underground" and this was her plan from the time she left Tempe........ then she was playing the Smiths letting them think she wanted them to adopt Gabriel......working both sides of the coin so to say.....

But if she was working off the advice of the Smith which lead her to San Antonio then why wasn't she in touch with them during that time....They had to find her on her myspace acct.......

If EJ decided to run on the 18th after the hearing on the 17th and she went rouge all the way.....this puts Gabriel in the most danger......meaning she got rid of Gabriel on short notice ...

What church did Elizabeth meet Tammi at?? Been searching this possibility...just don't see Elizabeth being religious.

Christ's Church of the Valley.

http://www.ccvonline.com/Arena/default.aspx?page=12133

EJ didn't have to be religious, this particular church doesn't seem to be that well established, they may have been so desperate for members that they would of done anything she asks ( yes this does happen )

She could have joined for money, is also another possibilty.

I was just thinking, they could of written that on the MS account to ensure that they had a time line, kinda like an alibi. We have seen ALL partys ability to lie.

kileyizzle said:

Christ's Church of the Valley.

http://www.ccvonline.com/Arena/default.aspx?page=12133

EJ didn't have to be religious, this particular church doesn't seem to be that well established, they may have been so desperate for members that they would of done anything she asks ( yes this does happen )

She could have joined for money, is also another possibilty.

I was just thinking, they could of written that on the MS account to ensure that they had a time line, kinda like an alibi. We have seen ALL partys ability to lie.

Click to expand...

I was looking there today, specifically at their Africa and Central/South America locations for their missionary work. Something about one being a few hours drive from Phoenix really really intrugues me... does anyone know where the Ss timeshare was yet?
http://www.ccvonline.com/Arena/default.aspx?page=12568

I got that sinking feeling again looking through these lists, why is there so much focus in pheonix?

There is alot of focus on Teenage girls! Being pregnant & needing their help etc etc.

Christian Family Care - Must be the adoption agency PTS has refered too concering Gabriel

One of the things i find concerning right now is the fact that they have that program called STREETLIGHT. A program for reintergrating victims & rescuing them from trafficking. ( Children )

It would be easy enough for EJ to get caught up in it all, and hand over Gabriel. She's had a rough life and would react well to people praising her. She likes being "commended" as per the audio.

IMO - If they have a program for rescuing/reinstating these children. Then they know a fair bit about trafficking, combined with whatever information they pick up from victims, a regular meeting place, lots of funds... Organized Crime Syndicate perhaps?

Who knows, but it appears to me, that this is getting a little scarier by the minute.