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  1. #1

    Justice for Gabriel: Legal & Moral

    The San Antonio state attorney (SA SA) is in a tough position right now, and having to make some tough decisions. In this dance they must do, what steps will they take?

    The fate of a defenseless baby, Gabriel Johnson, is at stake.

    For example, let's say the SA SA is thinking of pressing homicide charges against Elizabeth. Decisions have to be made in light of the fact that Gabe's body has not been found. Were they to bring charges against Tammi, for example, that indicated her involvement in Gabe's disappearance, then the SA SA would put in the position of taking conflicting stances in two prosecutions, Elizabeth's and Tammi's.

    The SA SA can not say "we believe Tammi participated in Gabe's disappearance by arranging for Gabe to be given or sold to another person" *and* say "we believe Elizabeth murdered Gabe". The two directly conflict.

    Hence, the tough decisions they have to make. They have to pick only one.

    Suppose they charge Tammi with something like kidnapping or human trafficking, and then Gabe's body is found, in a diaper bag, w/COD suffocation?

    Suppose they charge Elizabeth with homicide, and then Gabe is found alive at Tammi's timeshare with a friend or relative of hers?

    Suppose they charge Elizabeth with homicide, and then Gabe's body is found, and there is clearcut evidence that Elizabeth gave or sold Gabe to someone, without Tammi's involvement, and that person harmed Gabe?

    And, most importantly, if and when they make that decision to charge Elizabeth with homicide, LE's search for Gabe will stop. A prosecutor can not say both "we believe this child was murdered" *and* "we believe this child may be alive so we must search for him". It's one or the other, and LE follows the lead of the SA.

    We deal with three things in many of these cases: the reality of what happened to the victim, the unknown, and the legal machinations of prosecution.

    I'm surprised there's been no discussion of the future charging and prosecution issues in this case. They're complex, and if Gabe is still with us, his life and well-being are at stake.

    - What has the SA SA decided?
    - What are they still trying to decide?
    - Will they take that big, risky step of charging Elizabeth with homicide? What - will they do before taking that step in order to make a decision like that?
    - Will they ensure that Gabe is given every chance possible?
    - How will they do that?

    The SA SA dance is a hard one I'd not want to have to do. It's a dance with the devil, in which justice of many kinds is at stake for a defenseless baby.

    What is legally savvy, politically pleasing, is not always what is morally right and just. It is not always what is in the best interests of the victim.

    I pray that the San Antonio Police Department and the San Antonio State Attorney will *not* classify Gabriel's case as a homicide case unless and until Gabriel is found deceased, and that until that time, they will actively and diligently search for this baby alive.

    It's what Gabe deserves.

    Justice for Gabriel.

  2. #2
    Let's look at what we've seen regarding SAPD in chronological order:

    - About 3 weeks ago, the family was unable to use the services of the Heidi Search organization, which is a rescue search organization (not recovery).

    - Then about a week or so later, Logan said in a news interview video that SAPD thinks Gabe is dead.

    - Then last Friday, the SAPD chief made public statements, including that SAPD's case status for Gabe is not homicide.

    - Then the family was able to avail themselves of Heidi Search's services.

    One might draw some logical conclusions from that sequence of events.

    Interestingly, last Friday, the SAPD chief also announced that the landfill searches would begin, and also said there would be announcements very early this week, neither of which happened. Maybe since Logan pushed for a meeting, they decided to put off their announcement until after they meet with him.

    Logan's statements in the news when he was planning the roadtrip to SA were also interesting to me. He said that Tempe PD had asked him to delay his trip. And then, when Tammi was arrested, Tempe PD announced that they had wrapped up their case, that they do not believe that Tammi was not involved in Gabe's disappearance, that they do not believe that Tammi has any knowledge of where Gabe is, and that they had turned everything over to SAPD.

    (Just a note that I've tried to be careful to use the phrases that the PDs used. I recommend watching the videos in the Media sticky & LE Statements threads and listening yourself to what McManus (SAPD) and Carbajal (Tempe PD) say, rather than reading what the media and others (including myself) have written that they said, some out of context.)

    One of my conclusions from this is that there has been heavy activity behind the scenes not only between the Tempe and SA PDs, but also between the Maricopa County and SA state attorneys. When you think about it, the state attorneys need to make some tough decisions in this case that could not be made without some heavy duty discussion, compromises, and agreements back and forth.

    After all, Tempe PD announced they do not believe Tammi was involved in Gabe's disappearance, they do not believe Tammi has knowledge of Gabe's whereabouts, and Jack is no longer a person of interest. The Maricopa County SA filed the criminal complaint for conspiracy to commit custodial interference and forgery only.

    The Tempe/Maricopa PD and SA have made their decisions and announced them. They could not have done so unless the SA PD and SA SA had made some decisions.

  3. #3
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    Very interesting thread, I am no legal begal, so I do not have much to contribute here, But, regarding the press conference that never happened- Cheif Mcmanus has had a very full plate, with the lady who killed her 2 babies, and a murder suicide, and some other things going on, he is very hands on, from what I can tell, he is at the scene, when bad things happen(maybe all police cheifs are, IDK) also, SA PD is haveing major investigations from internal affairs right now.

    No excuse IMO, but could these be contributing factors? again IDK, just a little info on where and what the SA PD is at/up to. might even be OT.

    Very well thought out BeanE, Thank you! and SA SA, just makes my head spin, LOL

  4. #4
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    Also, Susan Reed, the Criminal District attorney, WILL GIVE EVERYTHING SHE HAS, to prosecute people who hurt babies and children, so which ever way it goes, I have faith in her. Let's just say, she is very hated by criminals around here. and she is the last person you want on your A**.

    So have faith my dears, no matter what happened, with her in the courts, whoever is responsible, will get what they deserve.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Ives View Post
    Also, Susan Reed, the Criminal District attorney, WILL GIVE EVERYTHING SHE HAS, to prosecute people who hurt babies and children, so which ever way it goes, I have faith in her. Let's just say, she is very hated by criminals around here. and she is the last person you want on your A**.

    So have faith my dears, no matter what happened, with her in the courts, whoever is responsible, will get what they deserve.
    It is Gabriel who I want to get what he deserves. He deserves to be searched for diligently unless and until he is found deceased.

    Every child deserves that. No matter how slim the hope, no matter what the odds, if there is the slightest chance they are out there, they deserve to be searched for.

    God bless Gabriel.

  6. #6
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    I couldn't agree more.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeanE View Post
    It is Gabriel who I want to get what he deserves. He deserves to be searched for diligently unless and until he is found deceased.

    Every child deserves that. No matter how slim the hope, no matter what the odds, if there is the slightest chance they are out there, they deserve to be searched for.

    God bless Gabriel.
    I completely agree. Gabriel deserves nothing less.

  7. #7
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    BeanE,

    Thanks SO much for this thread and these posts. Really got my mind cranking.

    Do you know if there is a chance that Heidi Search will no longer be able to help the family now that SAPD has changed their investigation to murder?
    I certainly hope that's not the case.
    There is always HOPE!!!

  8. #8
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    If I'm not mistaken, Tammi can not be charged for anything in TX unless she was IN Texas when she committed the crime. This is why AZ has charged her.
    "I may have been to hell and back, but I am strong enough to walk through hell
    with a smile on my face and with my head held high and my feet firmly on
    the ground." - Michelle Knight

  9. #9
    That’s why Thursday, McQueary’s private investigator met with the San Antonio Police Department and gave authorities every bit of evidence they have gathered.

    “I think we opened up their eyes a little bit more. I think we did point them in the right direction today,” said McQueary.

    The FBI has even come forward, telling McQueary they want to do more to help in the search. But unless the San Antonio Police Department changes the case from a homicide to missing persons, the FBI can’t even open a case file.
    “We’re really close. Closer than we’ve ever been,” said McQueary.

    If the San Antonio Police Department changes the classification of the case, McQueary wouldn't have to count on the whim of the woman behind bars. With more resources, McQueary truly believes they will soon find Gabriel on their own.

    “It doesn’t matter to me how much time she gets or how little time she gets. She can go along with her life and I can go along with mine. As long as I have Gabriel. That’s all I want,” said McQueary.


    http://www.kpho.com/news/23032430/detail.html

    SAPD contact page:
    http://www.sanantonio.gov/sapd/contact.asp

    San Antonio Mayor's office contact:
    http://www.sanantonio.gov/mayor/

    Texas governor's office contact:
    http://governor.state.tx.us/contact/

    Thank you,
    BeanE

  10. #10
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    Oh SAPD, what have you been doing? They need to get this thing done already.
    Thank you for the info BeanE!
    I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.
    ― Franklin D. Roosevelt


    Gabriel Johnson and Sylar Newton. Come home safely Gabriel Johnson! RIP Sweet Sylar.


  11. #11
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    “It doesn’t matter to me how much time she gets or how little time she gets. She can go along with her life and I can go along with mine. As long as I have Gabriel. That’s all I want,” said McQueary.
    What a beautiful statement and proof of Logan's motivation!

    I had not seen this thread before, it's a great one, BeanE. There are so many questions to ponder here. I am constantly going back and forth with this.

    I'd almost be ok with them charging EJ with murder. I understand SAPD would close their "missing persons" case, but it sounds like Logan and Mr. Gamble are finding more on their own, anyway. Plus, we may just get something out of EJ if she knows she's facing murder.

    But then again, because it does sound like they are getting so close to finding Gabe, maybe they should just hold off on any charges and slam every little bit they can on EJ when they do find him.

    As far as TS, I think it's going to be proven she had some hand in this and she BETTER be charged with something so she knows she can't get away with this. Even if it's only for what we know she's done already, she needs to be charged. She sits on her high horse, spouting her Bible verses and thumbing her nose at everyone. She needs to stand trial and have Logan sitting there with Gabe watching.
    100 years from now, it won't matter what kind of car you drove or how big your house was. What will matter is that you were important in the eyes of a child.


  12. #12
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    Great thread BTW! SAPD needs to open that missing person's case, what are they waiting for? The FBI can't do anything until they do? I have a feeling with the resources the FBI has, they would find Gabriel in a day if they could only get started.

    I think NG has a beef with SAPD already, so maybe we could bombard her to put the pressure on. I know Gabriel's FB page has lots of people on there doing that already, so anyone else not reading there, get over to NG!

    Is anyone able to write a letter we could post on here, that way we could all grab a copy and send it off to the contacts? Oprah does that when she urges people to contact their Representatives? Who's up for that letter challenge?
    I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.
    ― Franklin D. Roosevelt


    Gabriel Johnson and Sylar Newton. Come home safely Gabriel Johnson! RIP Sweet Sylar.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by kissdegirl View Post
    Great thread BTW! SAPD needs to open that missing person's case, what are they waiting for? The FBI can't do anything until they do? I have a feeling with the resources the FBI has, they would find Gabriel in a day if they could only get started.

    I think NG has a beef with SAPD already, so maybe we could bombard her to put the pressure on. I know Gabriel's FB page has lots of people on there doing that already, so anyone else not reading there, get over to NG!

    Is anyone able to write a letter we could post on here, that way we could all grab a copy and send it off to the contacts? Oprah does that when she urges people to contact their Representatives? Who's up for that letter challenge?
    Thank you, kiss, but we can't organize campaigns on here without Tricia's permission. If people are interested, I'm happy to take it forward.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanE View Post
    That's correct. SAPD closed Gabe's missing person case a few days after the landfill search ended, and because of that, although they want to, the FBI can not work on Gabe's case.

    I've written several times to SAPD as well as the mayor of San Antonio and the governor of Texas, begging them to re-open Gabe's missing person case, since there is no physical evidence that he is dead. I included a couple pictures of Gabe, as well as a picture of Logan crying.

    Actually, it's time for me to write to them again.

    SAPD is trying one more time to find Gabe alive before the prosecutor files homicide charges against Elizabeth.

    Closing a missing person case severely impacts a family's access to resources to search for their loved ones, as many organizations coordinate with LE, and do not offer services unless there is an open and active missing person case.

    If and when homicide charges are filed, resources are further curtailed, since LE no longer offers any resources. The prosecutor can not say both "this person is dead, so we are charging homicide" *and* "this person is, or may be alive, so LE is searching for them". The prosecutor will lose the case that way, as the defense will immediately exploit it and win.

    It is imperative to get and keep Gabe's missing person case re-opened, unless and until physical evidence is found that he is dead.

    It is also imperative to find even one piece of evidence or a confirmed indication that Gabe is alive. That's why it's critical that everyone do their best to find and send in tips to LE. All it takes is one lead to prevent homicide charges from being filed, re-open Gabe's missing person case, and get the FBI working on finding him.
    Thanks BeanE, I will write them as well because I just do not get it. The missing person case was closed yet they are making one more attempt to find Gabriel before they open the homicide case. I believe they are still looking but why would they not want more help from the FBI and work together on this? So what status is it in? Limbo status? It is not a missing person case and it is not a homicide case so what is it? Sorry if I sound frustrated but I believe they need the FBI involved too.

  15. #15
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    Do we know for sure that the FBI is not working on this case?

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