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Thread: WI - Evelyn Hartley: Vanished While Babysitting, 15, La Crosse, 24 Oct 1953

  1. #526
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    Auramyst is offline One should look for what is, not for what one thinks should be ~Albert Einstein
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    Quote Originally Posted by Educ8rkids View Post

    Not premeditated at all, but an act of desperation when things spiraled out of control. I can picture them in my minds-eye arguing over what to do with her and the stronger willed of the two winning the argument that they had to finish her, as the case may be,
    I agree that this wasn't premeditated.

    I also think that once they got Evelyn outside, one of them threw his denim jacket around her shoulders to 'cover her up' and so no one would notice the blood or her injuries as they 'walked' her down the street. I think that's why the blood wasn't noticed by Mr. X.

    and

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  3. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by FindingJoanieHall View Post
    Bothers me a lot the family won't give dna. Doesn't poor Evelyn deserve to perhaps be identified & buried with dignity if ever found? I just do not understand begrudging their sibling this.
    I don't know the answer to this.

    From everything I've read and learned about the family, they are very loving and supportive of each other.

    There is probably a very compelling, and personal, reason the family will not provide DNA samples.
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  5. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by FindingJoanieHall View Post
    Bothers me a lot the family won't give dna. Doesn't poor Evelyn deserve to perhaps be identified & buried with dignity if ever found? I just do not understand begrudging their sibling this.
    SBM

    FindingJoanieHall, do you have a link to the article about the Hartley family not giving DNA? I have never heard that and would like to read what is said.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by Marilynilpa; 07-28-2012 at 03:01 PM. Reason: delete a word

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    Someone asked upthread why Evelyn's sanitary pad was not found with her panties since she was on her period. As someone from the generation before stick-on pads, let me tell you about sanitary belts. Back then sanitary pads were not stuck to panties as they are today. Women had to wear elastic belts with clips that held the pads in place. (They were a misery! I hope whoever invented the modern style is very rich, because he/she deserves it!)

    It would be quite possible, therefore, for the underwear and pad to end up in completely different places.

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  8. #530
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    I don't know why that there is so much debate about this case. Read Judge Gollmar's book about the Ed Gein case. He makes it perfectly clear that Gein was responsible for the kidnapping and murder of this girl.

    In addition to the fact that Gein was visiting just two blocks away on the night of the crime only two teenaged (private parts) were found in his house. There were only two teenage missing girls at that time in history (anywhere near Wisconsin) and he makes a pretty good argument that one of the (private parts) belonged to Evelyn.

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  10. #531
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon500 View Post
    I don't know why that there is so much debate about this case. Read Judge Gollmar's book about the Ed Gein case. He makes it perfectly clear that Gein was responsible for the kidnapping and murder of this girl.

    In addition to the fact that Gein was visiting just two blocks away on the night of the crime only two teenaged (private parts) were found in his house. There were only two teenage missing girls at that time in history (anywhere near Wisconsin) and he makes a pretty good argument that one of the (private parts) belonged to Evelyn.
    Gein went for already deceased and/or older women. Also it is very likely more than 2 were missing in the area, they probably were not reported missing. Communications were VERY different in the 50s. Think about how many are missing from one state right now - it wouldn't be that significantly different. Can you paraphrase the arguments? I am interested in the theory.

    Everything is MOO and I am always willing to be wrong!


    October 2013 marked 60 years since Evelyn Hartley's violent kidnapping while babysitting.

    We need fresh eyes in the case - please visit us in
    Evelyn's thread!

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  12. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudette View Post
    Gein went for already deceased and/or older women. Also it is very likely more than 2 were missing in the area, they probably were not reported missing. Communications were VERY different in the 50s. Think about how many are missing from one state right now - it wouldn't be that significantly different. Can you paraphrase the arguments? I am interested in the theory.


    As you probably know Gein collected body parts from his murder victims and from bodies that were dug up. There were vulvas all over the place. Two vulvas were those of teenage girls. No teenage girl had been buried anywhere near Gein's town during that time. Since he was visiting a couple blocks away at the time of the disappearance of Ms. Hartley and the vulva of a teenage girl was found in his house Judge Gollmar was convinced that Gein had killed her and her body parts were in Gein's house.

    Today it would be a simple matter of doing DNA testing to find out whose body parts were in that house. In the 1950's in that rural area hardly any testing was done and the body parts were eventually disposed of.

    In my thinking Ms. Hartley was most certainly murdered by Gein.

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  14. #533
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    I'd like to know how it could be determined that a deteriorated vulva came from a teenager or a 50 year old woman. We had an unidentified woman found here several years ago who was described as being in her 30s but when she was identified it was found that she was 14 (and that was a whole recently deceased body in a more recent time).
    This is my opinion and to the best of my knowledge, that is, if I'm not joking.

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  16. #534
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    Quote Originally Posted by STANDREID View Post
    I'd like to know how it could be determined that a deteriorated vulva came from a teenager or a 50 year old woman. We had an unidentified woman found here several years ago who was described as being in her 30s but when she was identified it was found that she was 14 (and that was a whole recently deceased body in a more recent time).

    The judge doesn't go into that but I would assume that a doctor specializing in that kind of thing can tell the difference between a fully formed vulva of an adult and that of a teenager.

    By the way the "judge" that I am talking about is the judge who presided at his trial and sanity hearing. He also visited Gein in the nut house several times after he was convicted. He was privy to information that was not made public and took a great interest in both Gein and his victims. He was convinced that Gein had bodies all over and that some were buried on his farm but no attempt was ever made to find them.

  17. #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by STANDREID View Post
    I'd like to know how it could be determined that a deteriorated vulva came from a teenager or a 50 year old woman. We had an unidentified woman found here several years ago who was described as being in her 30s but when she was identified it was found that she was 14 (and that was a whole recently deceased body in a more recent time).
    I agree. I haven't read the book, so I don't know everything which went into making this theory "perfectly clear," but for me it would need to be more than the sexual organ to be convinced. I'm not a doctor, but I'm quite skeptical that a reasonable identification of age could be made from only dried tissue, particularly a vulva.

    As for the claim that no other young women were missing in that area...is there some reason to believe the vulvas were able to be dated precisely enough to determine when the tissue was initially removed from the victim? As previously mentioned, people in all eras have gone missing without notice or report. Even with all the "Big Brother" "high-tech" world we're in, people vanish. I can't imagine it was different in the fifties.

    I don't know a whole lot about Gein...I find him so particularly scary that I haven't delved much into his crimes...might have to check out that book if I'm brave enough.

    In any case, I'm always hopeful when I see Evelyn's thread at the top, and appreciate everyone's posts.

    Unless specified otherwise and linked, my posts are simply random thoughts of mine, in no particular order, not directed at any post or poster, including but not limited to the ones directly above mine. My opinion only, yours may vary. IMO. JMO. IMHO. JMHO. MOO. Disclaimer, small print, asterisk, and etc.

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  19. #536
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    Just reading the reviews on amazon was creepy enough. Not on kindle, for anyone else who wondered.

    Unless specified otherwise and linked, my posts are simply random thoughts of mine, in no particular order, not directed at any post or poster, including but not limited to the ones directly above mine. My opinion only, yours may vary. IMO. JMO. IMHO. JMHO. MOO. Disclaimer, small print, asterisk, and etc.

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  21. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by flourish View Post
    I agree. I haven't read the book, so I don't know everything which went into making this theory "perfectly clear," but for me it would need to be more than the sexual organ to be convinced. I'm not a doctor, but I'm quite skeptical that a reasonable identification of age could be made from only dried tissue, particularly a vulva.

    As for the claim that no other young women were missing in that area...is there some reason to believe the vulvas were able to be dated precisely enough to determine when the tissue was initially removed from the victim? As previously mentioned, people in all eras have gone missing without notice or report. Even with all the "Big Brother" "high-tech" world we're in, people vanish. I can't imagine it was different in the fifties.

    I don't know a whole lot about Gein...I find him so particularly scary that I haven't delved much into his crimes...might have to check out that book if I'm brave enough.

    In any case, I'm always hopeful when I see Evelyn's thread at the top, and appreciate everyone's posts.


    Although anything is possible, I have never felt Gein was connected to this case. While it is true he was in La Crosse the evening Evelyn disappeared, based on his other crimes I just don't see this being Gein's work. JMO

    But it's great to have new ideas to discuss, and I always keep an open mind on this case.

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  23. #538
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    Today marks 59 years since Evelyn forever vanished into the night. It appears we do not seem to be any closer knowing what happened than we were that night.

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  25. #539
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    I am also curious as to why the Hartley family hasn't submitted DNA for testing against any bodies that may be found....I am truly disturbed by that and can't understand why they wouldn't want answers!! I would be giving DNA to everyone if it finally meant getting answers to what happened to my little girl! Totally in left field, but could there be a chance that Evelyn was not their biological daughter??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamrocker99 View Post
    I am also curious as to why the Hartley family hasn't submitted DNA for testing against any bodies that may be found....I am truly disturbed by that and can't understand why they wouldn't want answers!! I would be giving DNA to everyone if it finally meant getting answers to what happened to my little girl! Totally in left field, but could there be a chance that Evelyn was not their biological daughter??
    There's a chance but it's her siblings that don't want to give dna, her parents passed - remember they were probably in their 40s or 50s in 1953. You can tell though that she's related to them, they all look alike in their newspaper pictures! All tall and willowy with dark hair and very similar facial features.

    Everything is MOO and I am always willing to be wrong!


    October 2013 marked 60 years since Evelyn Hartley's violent kidnapping while babysitting.

    We need fresh eyes in the case - please visit us in
    Evelyn's thread!

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  28. #541
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    Duh!! Forgot about how old this case is hopefully her siblings will change their mind and there might be a match someday--having no closure would make me crazy!

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  30. #542
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    I know she wasn't Gein's usual type. But just knowing that he was only 2 blocks away from her the night she went missing--that makes me shudder. I think he might be the one responsible for her death.
    “Every day that they don’t find something is good for me.“ Billie Dunn

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    Why don't they want to give DNA? I have never heard of anything so stupid.

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  33. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by scriptgirl View Post
    Why don't they want to give DNA? I have never heard of anything so stupid.
    I can't speak for them of course, nor do I understand really either, but many decades had passed before DNA testing became available and they're all elderly. I don't think they feel they can handle it, or have completely moved on with their lives to the point that they would rather pretend it never happened. MOO.

    Everything is MOO and I am always willing to be wrong!


    October 2013 marked 60 years since Evelyn Hartley's violent kidnapping while babysitting.

    We need fresh eyes in the case - please visit us in
    Evelyn's thread!

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  35. #545
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    What proof do we have that Gein was blocks away on the night of the murder? I've seen that stated in many accounts but they never give any evidence to back it up. Maybe someone has seen a more comprehensive report that tells why this is considered a certainty.
    This is my opinion and to the best of my knowledge, that is, if I'm not joking.

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  37. #546
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    I have never read any proof Gein was nearby that night. I just don't feel he did it.
    It also bugs me the siblings will not give DNA. But I can understand they have their reasons.Then again maybe they have by now and it never made the news. Not much has been written about Evelyn's case in many years now.

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  39. #547
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    Quote Originally Posted by STANDREID View Post
    What proof do we have that Gein was blocks away on the night of the murder? I've seen that stated in many accounts but they never give any evidence to back it up. Maybe someone has seen a more comprehensive report that tells why this is considered a certainty.
    iirc - there was a judge who wrote a book about it and made that claim but it wasn't substantiated by anyone, including gein who claimed he was nowhere near there. in fact, the idea that he was visiting relatives seems far-fetched given who he was.

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  41. #548
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    Exactly. It was just that judge's opinion and there was no proof. As you said, Gein himself stated he was not in La Crosse, he was at his farm in Plainfield when Evelyn was abducted. Of course it is hard to believe anything he said, but I still do not feel Gein was involved. I believe I read in the book "Where's Evelyn" that his nearest relative lived in Onalaska. which is only a few miles north, but not 2 blocks like some accounts say.

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  43. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by masootz View Post
    iirc - there was a judge who wrote a book about it and made that claim but it wasn't substantiated by anyone, including gein who claimed he was nowhere near there. in fact, the idea that he was visiting relatives seems far-fetched given who he was.
    Yeah, that always seemed off to me too, him visiting family. He was a hermit.

    Everything is MOO and I am always willing to be wrong!


    October 2013 marked 60 years since Evelyn Hartley's violent kidnapping while babysitting.

    We need fresh eyes in the case - please visit us in
    Evelyn's thread!

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  45. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by STANDREID View Post
    What proof do we have that Gein was blocks away on the night of the murder? I've seen that stated in many accounts but they never give any evidence to back it up. Maybe someone has seen a more comprehensive report that tells why this is considered a certainty.
    I don't believe I have ever seen anything to substantiate that Gein was within blocks of Evelyn on the night she disappeared. That's just something I felt was possible since I read it in several accounts.

    I don't feel Gein was involved with Evelyn's disappearance. JMO

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