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  1. #1
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    Legal and Law Questions - * No Discussion *

    * No Discussion - Questions Only *

    ================================================== =====

    BeanE suggested this would be a good thread topic and I totally agree. Everyone, please post your legal questions related to Gabriel's case here.

    I would like to know if it's possible for a plea deal to be worked out for EJ. And if so, how could/would it work? Is it possible for different jurisdictions to work together for a plea deal reguarding all possible charges? Or does each jurisdiction have to handle their charges and plea deals seperately?
    I know this is all only hypothetical at this time. Just looking for some general info on how this MIGHT go. Thanks.
    Last edited by BeanE; 05-06-2010 at 04:53 AM. Reason: add No Discussion to title & OP
    Bring the Missing Home!!!
    Find Kara Kopetsky!!!

    God watch over baby Gabriel Johnson
    Tips: gabrieljohnson.tips@gmail.com


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  3. #2
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    No Questions Asked Return of Baby Gabriel?

    Can LE make a statement that there will be no questions asked for the person/people who safely return Baby Gabriel? What process would these people have to go through to ensure that they won't be prosecuted? Can their lawyer anonymously talk to LE and secure a deal??

    I just know I would be scared if I was in their place.


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  5. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewMommy09 View Post
    BeanE suggested this would be a good thread topic and I totally agree. Everyone, please post your legal questions related to Gabriel's case here.

    I would like to know if it's possible for a plea deal to be worked out for EJ. And if so, how could/would it work? Is it possible for San Antonio to work with Maricopa County for a plea deal reguarding all possible charges? Or does each jurisdiction have to handle their charges and plea deals seperately?
    I know this is all only hypothetical at this time. Just looking for some general info on how this MIGHT go. Thanks.

    ETA: Generic Legal info for all jurisdictions could also be posted here.
    The charges would be handled by the jurisdictions in which they were brought, but I don't see any reason the 2 jurisdictions couldn't work together on a plea deal.

    "It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94


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  7. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Concernedmomarizona View Post
    Can LE make a statement that there will be no questions asked for the person/people who safely return Baby Gabriel? What process would these people have to go through to ensure that they won't be prosecuted? Can their lawyer anonymously talk to LE and secure a deal??

    I just know I would be scared if I was in their place.
    I guess LE could make that statement, and a lawyer could attempt to negotiate a deal for his safe return, but I don't think that LE will do that. I think, if Gabriel's alive, LE would be concerned that these people will just arrange more underground adoptions if they aren't stopped.

    "It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94


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  9. #5
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    Assuming Elizabeth did give Gabriel away in an underground adoption...

    And her lawyer believes that, what is the lawyer's possible strategy? Are they waiting for a plea deal before she'll talk? What else could be going on behind the scenes?


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  11. #6
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    Please be sure to refer to the Expert Poster link in my signature so you know who is posting as a verified lawyer.
    We are all free to answer questions on this thread, but please know that the only posters we know to be lawyers are those listed at the link in my signature.
    Thanks.


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  13. #7
    Hi, AZ. If falsified/illegal documents were used, then a legal adoption attempted, is there any required checking of the documents?

    For example, if a falsified/forged document relinquishing the father's paternal rights were used, does the attorney or the court check that document against court records to verify if it's legitimate? Or do they just pass the documents on through with no checking?

    Or does that depend on the state the attempted legal adoption is taking place in?

    TIA


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  15. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanE View Post
    Hi, AZ. If falsified/illegal documents were used, then a legal adoption attempted, is there any required checking of the documents?

    For example, if a falsified/forged document relinquishing the father's paternal rights were used, does the attorney or the court check that document against court records to verify if it's legitimate? Or do they just pass the documents on through with no checking?

    Or does that depend on the state the attempted legal adoption is taking place in?

    TIA
    I would think that an attorney would want to see "certified" court documents--usually they have a raised stamp on them--although things like a document signed by the father giving up his parental rights might not be a court document at all, so wouldn't be certified. It would probably be notarized, but that wouldn't be too tough to forge. (Or to get a real notary to sign, if you had a passable fake ID.)

    "It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94


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  17. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Concernedmomarizona View Post
    And her lawyer believes that, what is the lawyer's possible strategy? Are they waiting for a plea deal before she'll talk? What else could be going on behind the scenes?
    I don't think she'll get a plea deal unless her lawyer provides some clue of what kind of information she has to give. I.e., is she just offering to tell where G's body was dumped, or to provide a real description of everyone involved with an underground adoption that could potentially lead to recovering a live Gabriel? Obviously the second option will be worth more to prosecutors. EJ's lawyer is going to have to take a proactive role, not just sit around and wait for a plea deal.

    I believe EJ's lawyers immediately started working on her to convince her that the situation was SERIOUS and that she needed to talk. Remember her grandpa said that EJ was freaked out about getting 20 years? I bet it was EJ's lawyers who put that fear into her. I just don't know how successful they've been...

    I still wonder if that jail phone call from Eliz. to Tammy's cell phone ("you arranged this whole thing," etc.) was set up by LE as part of an attempted plea deal. Did we ever get any more information on that?

    "It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94


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  19. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by TXHOPE View Post
    You would think they would of offered her a serious plea deal before the huge undertaking of searching this landfill.
    I'm bringing this over from the landfill search thread, since I am going OT.

    If EJ did a professional underground adoption, it's entirely possible (and even likely) that if EJ spilled every bit of information she has, it still wouldn't be enough to find Gabriel. Those transactions are orchestrated to ensure that. If she can't produce Gabriel, then she doesn't have much bargaining power, IMO.

    As a mother, I can't imagine not putting my own liberty and/or life on the line to find my endangered child... but then, I wouldn't put my child into that situation in the first place.

    That being said, from a legal perspective, even if Gabriel had been alive and well when EJ last saw him and she honestly believed he was going to a family that would love him, her lawyer has to help her weigh the consequences of Gabriel possibly having been harmed after EJ gave him up, and what that would mean for her future. If I were her lawyer and I knew he had been handed over to human traffickers, even with good intentions, I think I would be cautious about what information I'd advise her to divulge. I'd be very concerned that even the appearance of her cooperating and talking too much to authorities might cause someone to dispose of the child. I would do my best to ensure that whatever she did say would be kept under wraps by authorities -- and I would be very upset when things leaked out, like mention of parking lots when as far as the public knew, my client had only spoken of a park.

    It will be very bad for EJ legally if Gabriel is not alive and he is located, no matter how it happened, or when, or at whose hand. At the same time, finding him alive is her ticket out of the jam she's made for herself. If EJ did adopt him out, there's a very delicate balancing act going on now for her lawyer.
    If I can stop one heart from breaking,
    I shall not live in vain;
    If I can ease one life the aching,
    Or cool one pain,
    Or help one fainting robin
    Unto his nest again,
    I shall not live in vain.
    ~Emily Dickinson~


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  21. #11
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    Hi AZ,

    Could LE have seached the landfill before they changed it to a homicide investigation, or is that maybe why they did change it, I did try to research this but could not find anything,


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  23. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormmolly View Post
    Hi AZ,

    Could LE have seached the landfill before they changed it to a homicide investigation, or is that maybe why they did change it, I did try to research this but could not find anything,
    I don't know what the procedure is, but I've seen several articles in which the SA police stress that they had to classify the case as a homicide investigation in order to search the landfill.

    "It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94


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  25. #13
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    Going on the assumption that EJ gave the baby to an adoptive couple as she claims with these questions.

    Prior to missing the custody hearing in Dec, which resulted in custody given to the father, did EJ break any laws prior to the custody hearing by taking the baby to TX?

    Even with the laws in TX being what they are, easier to give baby up without father's consent, even if she did adopt the baby out prior to the custody hearing, do you see anywhere in the TX laws that would have made this adoption legal? (I can't but just wanted an official answer)

    Lastly, given the assumption that this was an illegal adoption, what legal consequences are there for the adoptive parents should the baby be located, (adoptive couple come forward)

    TIA!

    On edit, scratch the first question....I forgot about the first custody hearing on 12-17, they were given joint custody, so yes, she did break the law.
    Last edited by nitasch; 02-10-2010 at 03:56 PM.


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  27. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by nitasch View Post
    Going on the assumption that EJ gave the baby to an adoptive couple as she claims with these questions.

    Prior to missing the custody hearing in Dec, which resulted in custody given to the father, did EJ break any laws prior to the custody hearing by taking the baby to TX?

    Even with the laws in TX being what they are, easier to give baby up without father's consent, even if she did adopt the baby out prior to the custody hearing, do you see anywhere in the TX laws that would have made this adoption legal? (I can't but just wanted an official answer)

    Lastly, given the assumption that this was an illegal adoption, what legal consequences are there for the adoptive parents should the baby be located, (adoptive couple come forward)

    TIA!

    On edit, scratch the first question....I forgot about the first custody hearing on 12-17, they were given joint custody, so yes, she did break the law.
    There is no way this adoption could have been legal in any state, what with the father being named on the birth certificate, his paternity having been confirmed in court 12-17 with EJ's agreement (this operates the same for legal purposes as a DNA test), his being awarded joint custody on 12-17, and his refusal to give up his parental rights. The laws that make it easier to adopt a baby without the father's consent concern fathers who are not on the birth certificate, have not been determined to be the biological father (by DNA or court order), don't have custody, haven't seen or attempted to see the child in a while, etc.

    If the adoptive parents were tricked with false documents and haven't realized that they are holding a missing child, they might not face charges at all. If they participated in creating documents, they might face forgery charges. If they knew or eventually figured out that the adoption was "hinky," they might face custodial inferference or kidnapping charges.

    "It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...139910&page=94


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  29. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZlawyer View Post
    There is no way this adoption could have been legal in any state, what with the father being named on the birth certificate, his paternity having been confirmed in court 12-17 with EJ's agreement (this operates the same for legal purposes as a DNA test), his being awarded joint custody on 12-17, and his refusal to give up his parental rights. The laws that make it easier to adopt a baby without the father's consent concern fathers who are not on the birth certificate, have not been determined to be the biological father (by DNA or court order), don't have custody, haven't seen or attempted to see the child in a while, etc.

    If the adoptive parents were tricked with false documents and haven't realized that they are holding a missing child, they might not face charges at all. If they participated in creating documents, they might face forgery charges. If they knew or eventually figured out that the adoption was "hinky," they might face custodial inferference or kidnapping charges.
    Thank you, just one more question..... in the Dec 17 custody documents, it states that a new birth certificate must be ordered to show the fathers name on it. Meaning to me, that he was not listed on the original one.

    In this case, it would not be a real stretch to assume that EJ supplied this adoption agency (or whatever they call themselves) with the original birth certificate and lied about the paternity of the baby.....so even though it was an illegal adoption, could you see a judge going lightly on the adoptive parents?

    Again, thank you so much for your input, it is awesome to have you here!
    Last edited by nitasch; 02-10-2010 at 04:38 PM.


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