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  1. #1
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    Loose ligature ISN'T STAGING

    Was the 2nd ligature a staging item or not? According to standard RDI, it was staging. It was staging to represent JBR being tied up by an intruder.

    Was the 2nd ligature found tight around JBR's wrists? No.

    Why was an item intended for staging not left in its most convincing staging position, tied tightly around her wrists?

    Why does the 2nd ligature have two knots and three loops? I would think a standard and convincing wrist restraint would have one knot, and the ligature looped several times tightly around both wrists.

    Answer: We don't understand the purpose for the 2nd ligature. But, JBR's assailant believed that the 2nd ligature no longer had a purpose after JBR died. Thats why it was loose.
    Last edited by Holdontoyourhat; 02-24-2010 at 12:29 AM.

  2. #2
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    If it was a kidnapping gone wrong like you always suggest,why didn't he hide the body?Wrapping it in a blanket ain't hiding,JR himself said that he saw her instantly.(but again we have a problem with the whole basement scenario,two people already checked it and saw NOTHING)

    Let's say the intruder left the note there so that this will gain him more time to get out of town,whatever.He tried to take the body with him but couldn't get it out of the house (suitcase,window).

    Why didn't he hide it better?


    Re the title of the thread:maybe in a moment of panic JR realized it didn't look convincing,who knows.He knew FW was around and maybe this kinda messed up with his plans of how to "find" JB and explain some things. moo
    The rice is already cooked...

  3. #3
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    JR himself said at one point that there were lots of people in the basement at 3am.Was it a slip,a mistake,I don't know.He also said that he "found" her at 11am.Lots of misunderstandings....way too many,don't you think.So if this is true and if this is what some of the friends are hiding and lying about (help,cover up,God knows what else) then maybe one didn't know what the other did.Maybe JR realized it's too much,the cord,the 2nd ligature,the note,the blanket,the tape.No surprise that profilers said it's overstaging,it's just too much.Maybe because there were too many people involved in the cover up.

    moo
    The rice is already cooked...

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
    Was the 2nd ligature a staging item or not? According to standard RDI, it was staging.
    Not according to "standard RDI," friend. According to the FBI's CASKU division:

    To the FBI profilers, the time spent staging the crime scene pointed to a killer who had asked, "how do I explain this? and had answered the question: "a stranger did it." The staging suggested a killer desperate to divert attention.
    Moreover, there was staging within staging: the loop of cord around one wrist was not a real indication that JonBenet had been restrained.

    --PMPT, pb, p 498

    In other words, we have GOOD REASON to think that.

    It was staging to represent JBR being tied up by an intruder.
    Yup.

    Why was an item intended for staging not left in its most convincing staging position, tied tightly around her wrists?
    CASKU addressed that point too. And it's so simple I STILL don't understand what's so damn hard to understand about it:

    By now CASKU was quite certain that JonBenet's killer had never committed a murder before...someone intelligent but not criminally sophisticated.
    --PMPT pg 496-497

    Why does the 2nd ligature have two knots and three loops? I would think a standard and convincing wrist restraint would have one knot, and the ligature looped several times tightly around both wrists.
    It's REALLY easy to sit calmly at a computer and say that, especially when you've had 13+ years to analyze the mistakes. An amateur with no knowledge of what a real crime scene looks like in a highly agitated emotional state flying by the seat of his/her pants as it's happening doesn't always have the luxury of crystal-clear thinking, let alone intimate knowledge of what a real crime scene looks like.

    If anyone else can come up with a more concise way of phrasing that, I'd be much obliged!
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post


    It's REALLY easy to sit calmly at a computer and say that, especially when you've had 13+ years to analyze the mistakes. An amateur with no knowledge of what a real crime scene looks like in a highly agitated emotional state flying by the seat of his/her pants as it's happening doesn't always have the luxury of crystal-clear thinking, let alone intimate knowledge of what a real crime scene looks like.

    If anyone else can come up with a more concise way of phrasing that, I'd be much obliged!
    This is more wildcard reasoning. I understand that RDI is resistant to the use of logic or reason. The loose ligature is not consistent with the basic motive of staging a crime scene complete with 350 word ransom note and tightened neck garrote. The loose ligature does not support staging.

    Its REALLY easy for someone staging a murder to tie a convincing wrist restraint, having already tied a garrote tightly around JBR's neck--so tightly in fact it had to be cut to be removed.

    Now, mysteriously, the perp is too inexperienced to create a convincing wrist restraint? C'mon who are you kiddin?

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post

    An amateur with no knowledge of what a real crime scene looks like in a highly agitated emotional state flying by the seat of his/her pants as it's happening doesn't always have the luxury of crystal-clear thinking, let alone intimate knowledge of what a real crime scene looks like.
    This is a complete fabrication!

    There is no proof that the crime was committed by an amateur, that they were in an agitated emotional state, or were flying by the seat of their pants. This is your creation, your imagination. It has no support in evidence.
    Last edited by Holdontoyourhat; 02-24-2010 at 09:10 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
    This is more wildcard reasoning. I understand that RDI is resistant to the use of logic or reason.
    I've just about run out of patience. I'd tell you to think about it in a different way and the reasoning might be a little clearer, but we both know that's not going to happen.

    The loose ligature is not consistent with the basic motive of staging a crime scene complete with 350 word ransom note and tightened neck garrote.
    It's not a question of motive. It's a question of knowing how.

    The loose ligature does not support staging.
    Well, there's what you say and then there's what the FBI says. Which one do you think I'm going to go with?

    Its REALLY easy for someone staging a murder to tie a convincing wrist restraint,
    If they knew what a "convincing wrist restraint" was.

    having already tied a garrote tightly around JBR's neck--so tightly in fact it had to be cut to be removed.
    1) It wasn't cut so it could be removed. It was cut so that the knot wouldn't be messed with. They needed to study it further.

    2) Strangling someone involves different mechanics than binding wrists or ankles.

    3) Some of that tightness was probably due to post-mortem swelling. And even if it isn't, a ligature like that works on the same principle as a python: once it's pulled tight, it's very hard to loosen. One hard pull is all that would be needed.

    4) A possibility: perhaps the garrote was as far as they could go. As in "I've already done too much."

    5) Another possibility: the wrist ties just weren't that important in relation to the garrote.

    Now, mysteriously, the perp is too inexperienced to create a convincing wrist restraint?
    Nothing mysterious about it.

    C'mon who are you kiddin?
    I don't have time to kid when it comes to this case.

    This is a complete fabrication!
    HOTYH, I'm warning you. Do NOT impugn my honor.

    There is no proof that the crime was committed by an amateur, that they were in an agitated emotional state, or were flying by the seat of their pants. This is your creation, your imagination. It has no support in evidence.
    The feds agreed with it.
    Last edited by SuperDave; 02-24-2010 at 09:42 PM.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post



    That's it. Enough is too much. NOBODY calls me a liar and gets away with it.



    Oh, really?

    The FBI deemed the entire crime criminally unsophisticated and indicated panic.
    --ITRMI, p 242


    Hmm. Lets see.

    Able to write a 350 word essay. Included is a reference to beheading a child. Pretty cool headed stuff considering what else was going on.

    Weapon was simple, lightweight, and effective.

    Combination of headbash and strangulation together is a fairly common, more advanced killing technique.

    13 years later walking free.

    There is more evidence to indicate that the killer was professional, experienced, calm, and calculated. The EXACT OPPOSITE of what you posted.
    Last edited by Holdontoyourhat; 02-24-2010 at 09:48 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
    Hmm. Lets see.
    I can't wait.

    Able to write a 350 word essay. Included is a reference to beheading a child. Pretty cool headed stuff considering what else was going on.
    Your "consideration" leaves out a LOT of factors.

    Weapon was simple, lightweight, and effective.
    1) It wasn't simple. It had more than a foot of extra length which would have made it less user-friendly. Simple would have been to just use it like a traditional garrote.

    2) So what if it was lightweight?

    3) For reasons outlined in #1, it would only be effective on someone who was already incapacitated. That's not just my opinion, either.

    Combination of headbash and strangulation together is a fairly common, more advanced killing technique.
    If it were INTENDED to be a combination.

    There is more evidence to indicate that the killer was professional, experienced, calm, and calculated. The EXACT OPPOSITE of what you posted.
    There is NO evidence to indicate that at all. You might be able to convince some Johnny-come-lately of that, but not an old hand like me.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  9. #9
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    And didn't JR say he also tried to remove the cord around her wrists,therefore it became loose so if staged again JR messed with the evidence just like everything else that day...
    Knowledge of time is precious.Wisdom of truth is more precious than time..Opinions I write are mine..

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post



    There is NO evidence to indicate that at all. You might be able to convince some Johnny-come-lately of that, but not an old hand like me.
    Yes there is.

    I'll explain the evidence that does indicate experience, calm, and calculated (warning, logic involved):

    The primary evidence is the DNA, and the DA's office went out-of-their-way to exhonerate the R's. Based on this evidence, we can suppose at least for a moment that an intruder did it. Failure to suppose an intruder did it, even briefly, is curious because it does fly in the face of the most recent news reports.

    Corroborating the primary evidence is secondary evidence that JBR was alive when strangled with the garrote. We know this because of large petechial hemmorhaging on her neck at the site of the cord that would not take place unless JBR were very much alive. The coroner effectively stated this. This strongly indicates an intent to kill on the part of JBR's assailant.

    If there was an intent to kill JBR, then the head trauma is more likely another manifestation of this intent, and less likely she had an accident on the same night someone tried to kill her. The former can be inferred from evidence while the latter cannot.

    If an intruder did all the things we know happened, then the intruder would easily be perceived as experienced, calm, and calculated. They needed to gain entry, do all the things we know happened, leave without disturbing the occupants or the neighbors, and not be identified because of evidence left at the scene.


  11. #11
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    Hi SD.

    One hard pull is all that would be needed. - SD

    Is that the consensus of our WS group?
    The knott would not allow release of tension.
    In LS's recreation, his companion loops the garotte rope before placing it around LS neck ..... ?





    Heyya Hotyh.

    Hotyh, what's your take on LS recreation?

  12. #12
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    I've always thought the loose ligatures indicated JonBenet struggled against them. Thus, they were loosened.

    Now, my understanding is there was not evidence of struggle (i.e. abrasions on her wrists), so that would indicate the ligatures were applied as a part of a staging process.

    SuperDave - do you believe the ligatures were applied when John Ramsey disappeared for 2 hours (getting the mail)?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyn View Post
    And didn't JR say he also tried to remove the cord around her wrists,therefore it became loose so if staged again JR messed with the evidence just like everything else that day...
    An awfully convenient explanation, wouldn't you say?
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by KariKae View Post
    I've always thought the loose ligatures indicated JonBenet struggled against them. Thus, they were loosened.

    Now, my understanding is there was not evidence of struggle (i.e. abrasions on her wrists), so that would indicate the ligatures were applied as a part of a staging process.
    Beautiful, KariKae. It's so simple, isn't it?

    SuperDave - do you believe the ligatures were applied when John Ramsey disappeared for 2 hours (getting the mail)?
    Never thought about that. I doubt it, though.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
    Yes there is.
    I think I would have noticed by now if there were, HOTYH.

    More importantly, I think CASKU, the professionals who handle cases like this EVERY SINGLE DAY would have, too.

    Don't hate the player, HOTYH; hate the game.

    I'll explain the evidence that does indicate experience, calm, and calculated
    Good luck.

    (warning, logic involved):
    No, I'm warning YOU. DO NOT TEST ME. You've used up my patience already.

    The primary evidence is the DNA,
    Specks of degraded material that can't even be pinpointed to that night. You'll have to do a lot better than that.

    and the DA's office went out-of-their-way to exhonerate the R's.
    I have yet to see any reason why anyone should believe it's worth anything.

    Based on this evidence, we can suppose at least for a moment that an intruder did it.
    I have no problem with supposing.

    Failure to suppose an intruder did it, even briefly, is curious because it does fly in the face of the most recent news reports.
    We've been over that one so many times it's grown whiskers. And frankly, I'm just as tired of saying it as your are of hearing it.

    Corroborating the primary evidence is secondary evidence that JBR was alive when strangled with the garrote.
    We've been over THAT, too.

    We know this because of large petechial hemmorhaging on her neck at the site of the cord that would not take place unless JBR were very much alive.
    Petechial hemorrhages are very easy to produce, especially when the blood had nowhere to go.

    The coroner effectively stated this.
    He stated no such thing. In fact, you want to talk about flying in the face of news reports? Okay. I'll play your game:

    Werner Spitz, Thomas Henry, Henry Lee and Ronald Wright are all experience coroners who have stated publically several times that JB was very likely close to death when the garrote was applied.

    This strongly indicates an intent to kill on the part of JBR's assailant.
    Where's that logic you promised?

    If there was an intent to kill JBR, then the head trauma is more likely another manifestation of this intent, and less likely she had an accident on the same night someone tried to kill her. The former can be inferred from evidence while the latter cannot.
    Just you watch me.

    If an intruder did all the things we know happened, then the intruder would easily be perceived as experienced, calm, and calculated. They needed to gain entry, do all the things we know happened, leave without disturbing the occupants or the neighbors, and not be identified because of evidence left at the scene.
    THAT we can all agree on.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

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