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Thread: Dogs

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittsburghgirl View Post
    Well, it seems to me (ignorant as I am) that either the dogs are very, very lucky, or that they tracked Amber to a point very near where she was eventually found. How they did that, I don't know. But it's hard to dispute results.
    They trailed her for sure pittsburghgirl, and they did it without being given and list of places of interest, etc. LE told them that they had no leads whatsoever, so what happened is they started at Amber's home and ended up in Pala.

    Another very important fact that people need to realize is that Amber's case is not the first time that they have had results like this. They have worked other cases which included many vehicle trails, and they have documented successes that were witnessed by law enforcement.

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  3. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natal View Post
    If you consider the chemistry and physics behind a "scent" it is not possible for the dogs to have done what they supposedly did, so either it was sheer luck or they were responding to their handlers.
    Natal, please elaborate on the chemistry and physics on / behind scent for us. Thanks in advance.

  4. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by K9-Chaser View Post
    They trailed her for sure pittsburghgirl, and they did it without being given and list of places of interest, etc. LE told them that they had no leads whatsoever, so what happened is they started at Amber's home and ended up in Pala.

    Another very important fact that people need to realize is that Amber's case is not the first time that they have had results like this. They have worked other cases which included many vehicle trails, and they have documented successes that were witnessed by law enforcement.
    Gardner admits to killing her within an hour and a half of meeting her. I don't think he was taking her to read books in the library.

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    they went north several miles of the library -many articles refer -read!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rescuemedic View Post
    they went north several miles of the library -many articles refer -read!!
    Read what?
    The articles I have seen say dogs tracked her to the library.
    'Amber's parents also said that police were slow to respond to what they believed was an important scent trail to the Pala Library picked up by a team of highly trained East Coast search dogs brought in by the family in August."
    http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/sd...a337f6d73.html
    Last edited by jjenny; 04-18-2010 at 12:30 AM.

  7. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by K9Snoop View Post
    For Natel: you have 2 arguments in your post. On one hand, you state, that it's is "highly unlikely" that scent would remain for months. But then say that her tracks going to and from the school would still be there. Either the scent lasts or it doesn't. Also the scent around the school is in an urban location: concrete, hard surface, lots of people and cars going through the area which that scent is in a location which people tend to think degrades faster then something in a wilderness or rural location.

    I've also experimented around with my dogs (and anyone's elses that would give it a try) and we found that the wider range in trail age that you can expose the dog to, the less a factor trail age is. What I saw was that the hotter the track (ei fresher) the more wider some aspects of the trailing work was. The older, or colder, the trail was the tighter it was. Which makes me think that the skin cell fluff was gone, and the dogs were working off the lipid (fats) and/or other human chemical signature by-products which are stickier and adher to surfaces better.

    Which brings up another issue of hot-track versus cold-track dogs. Not all dogs or even all dogs within a certain breed are created equal. Not all perform at equal levels. That does not make this dog or that one bad, it just means one dog may be more suited to a particular task then another which is why many trailing folks have more then one dog. I've seen some outstanding German Shepards work trails that put the Bloodhounds to shame. And vis-a-versa. Having this breed or that one does not equate to automatic success. Also how the dogs are trained make a difference.

    Most LE dogs are hot-track patrol dogs. Most cue off ground scent disturbance or maybe the fear scent the suspect puts off. Department of Corrections dogs are trained to follow institutional scent more then individual scent. Most SAR trailing dogs tend to focus on only training in the timeframe they would get called out in which is 1-5 days old.

    Which is why it's hard to say dogs can't do this or that. The variations are huge across the trailing dog world. I've run a dog on a 3 day old track and encountered problems but take a similar trail 7 days later and the dog slam-dunks it. Go to run what you think is a straight forward little trail and an hour later struggle to finish it in a positive fashion. You never know what the dog will do until it actually goes to do it.

    For SarX: I agree that people need to experiment and try to see what works for them and how the dog responds under various conditions. I'm not ready to label anything as "impossible" as my dog has humbled me and handed me my head several times when he did something I thought was impossible. As a result I try to keep an open mind and when I hear of something weird, immediatly run home and try it with my dogs.
    I was re-reading some of the threads and noticed your comment about "fear" scent. What is "fear" scent? Do the dogs react differently to this scent? Do handlers know when their animals encounter this scent? Do trailing dogs react negatively to large amounts of this scent? (If this makes any sense...)

    Thanks...to anyone who knows or has time to answer.
    "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
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  8. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tink56 View Post
    I was re-reading some of the threads and noticed your comment about "fear" scent. What is "fear" scent? Do the dogs react differently to this scent? Do handlers know when their animals encounter this scent? Do trailing dogs react negatively to large amounts of this scent? (If this makes any sense...)

    Thanks...to anyone who knows or has time to answer.
    "Fear Scent" is characterized by the adrenaline dump that occurs when the human body is engaged in the sympathetic "Fight or Flight" system. (The Parasympathetic system is the "Feed and Breed" system) So in the situation of "cop chasing suspect", the suspect is dumping large amounts of adrenaline (or Fear) scent while trying to escape from the law. On a side note: some think that this chemical (epinephrine/adrenaline) plus a couple of others are involved when dealing with a terrified bondage/hostage situation.

    Most dogs when encountering the adrenaline scent become more excited, animated, focused, and intense on locating the individual because of the dog's prey drive becoming engaged due to this type of scent. (For the police dog they want to catch up because they want that bite on the suspect that is their reward.)

    For the terrified bondage/hostage situation, many dog handlers report that when the dogs get into an area that contains this scent the dogs will crouch down, tuck their tails, chatter their teeth, creep forward very hesitantly, if at all, and generally act as if something is wrong. Some will also do a purge defecation or urination.

    Does this help?
    Last edited by K9Snoop; 04-29-2010 at 12:07 PM.

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  10. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by K9Snoop View Post
    "Fear Scent" is characterized by the adrenaline dump that occurs when the human body is engaged in the sympathetic "Fight or Flight" system. (The Parasympathetic system is the "Feed and Breed" system) So in the situation of "cop chasing suspect", the suspect is dumping large amounts of adrenaline (or Fear) scent while trying to escape from the law. On a side note: some think that this chemical (epinephrine/adrenaline) plus a couple of others are involved when dealing with a terrified bondage/hostage situation.

    Most dogs when encountering the adrenaline scent become more excited, animated, focused, and intense on locating the individual because of the dog's prey drive becoming engaged due to this type of scent. (For the police dog they want to catch up because they want that bite on the suspect that is their reward.)

    For the terrified bondage/hostage situation, many dog handlers report that when the dogs get into an area that contains this scent the dogs will crouch down, tuck their tails, chatter their teeth, creep forward very hesitantly, if at all, and generally act as if something is wrong. Some will also do a purge defecation or urination.

    Does this help?
    Absolutely!

    BTW, would a dog put in an area that contains bondage/hostage scent, also want to flee the area as if they are spooked or frightened?
    "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
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  11. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tink56 View Post
    Absolutely!

    BTW, would a dog put in an area that contains bondage/hostage scent, also want to flee the area as if they are spooked or frightened?
    Yes, Some will not go forward or turn and want to leave. The body language is normally fearful or very, very guarded. I had one dog creep up on his belly all ready to cut and run at the first sign. The joke was that if something had made a loud noise or sudden motion I would have had to go to the next county to find my dog.

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  13. #310
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    Gardner took a different route...????

    According to Carrie McGonigle, Amber was abducted on Stanley Street and Gardner took a different route to Pala than the search dogs indicated last summer....Of course, one has to believe that Gardner told Carrie the truth.

    From the San Diego Union Tribune:
    The route Gardner says he drove to Pala seems to discredit the results of two search dogs last summer. The dogs had been hired by McGonigle’s mother, Sheila Welch, and their handlers at the time said the dogs had somehow tracked Amber’s scent, six months after she had disappeared, from in front of the high school, up Interstate 15, and then east to Pala. In fact, if what Gardner says is true, he got to Pala from the opposite direction. Many in law enforcement had scoffed at the idea the dogs could have tracked Amber that far, that long after she had disappeared. http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2...ite-abduction/
    "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
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  15. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tink56 View Post
    According to Carrie McGonigle, Amber was abducted on Stanley Street and Gardner took a different route to Pala than the search dogs indicated last summer....Of course, one has to believe that Gardner told Carrie the truth.

    From the San Diego Union Tribune:
    Why would he lie about the route he took? He's admitted to rape and murder, so why would he lie about the route? There is no benefit to him in that. I think it's got to be some freaky coincidence the dog "tracked" her to Pala reservation.

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    After seeing the TV program the other night, no one can ever convince me that dogs can't follow a person's scent for miles even days after disappearing. I think many handlers just don't have the right dogs and may not want to run or have their dogs tracks for miles and miles. It makes me wonder if Haleigh Cummins and some other missing people might have been quickly found if the right dogs were called in and allowed to track as far as they could go.

  17. #313
    Oriah is offline Verified Expert/Professional in SAR and K9SAR
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    Quote Originally Posted by K9Snoop View Post
    "Fear Scent" is characterized by the adrenaline dump that occurs when the human body is engaged in the sympathetic "Fight or Flight" system. (The Parasympathetic system is the "Feed and Breed" system) So in the situation of "cop chasing suspect", the suspect is dumping large amounts of adrenaline (or Fear) scent while trying to escape from the law. On a side note: some think that this chemical (epinephrine/adrenaline) plus a couple of others are involved when dealing with a terrified bondage/hostage situation.

    Most dogs when encountering the adrenaline scent become more excited, animated, focused, and intense on locating the individual because of the dog's prey drive becoming engaged due to this type of scent. (For the police dog they want to catch up because they want that bite on the suspect that is their reward.)

    For the terrified bondage/hostage situation, many dog handlers report that when the dogs get into an area that contains this scent the dogs will crouch down, tuck their tails, chatter their teeth, creep forward very hesitantly, if at all, and generally act as if something is wrong. Some will also do a purge defecation or urination.

    Does this help?
    Why on earth would a handler work their SAR or police K9 in a situation that terrified them????

    K9s working in high stress situations (such as war zones or natural disasters, etc) are proofed for specific stressors. If they are fearful, they shouldn't BE there.
    Last edited by Oriah; 10-23-2011 at 08:36 AM.

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  19. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oriah View Post
    Why on earth would a handler work their SAR or police K9 in a situation that terrified them????

    K9s working in high stress situations (such as war zones or natural disasters, etc) are proofed for specific stressors. If they are fearful, they shouldn't BE there.
    Clicking thank you was not enough. Agree emphatically.

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  21. #315
    Oriah is offline Verified Expert/Professional in SAR and K9SAR
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarx View Post
    Clicking thank you was not enough. Agree emphatically.
    Seriously....what is that all about??? I mean- I know all trainers and handlers are different. And truly, I have respect for diversity.

    But that is abuse, imo. I see red when I read this sort of stuff.

  22. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oriah View Post
    Seriously....what is that all about??? I mean- I know all trainers and handlers are different. And truly, I have respect for diversity.

    But that is abuse, imo. I see red when I read this sort of stuff.
    Agree. It is abuse and with respect for diversity, if you have a dog that his job scares the crap out of him (literally apparently), how reliable do you think he's really gonna be?

    I would absolutely flip out if I was working any sort of situation and saw this. No dog should ever be subjected to that. They're just like people, some can handle certain things, some can't, and that's ok!

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  24. #317
    Oriah is offline Verified Expert/Professional in SAR and K9SAR
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarx View Post
    Agree. It is abuse and with respect for diversity, if you have a dog that his job scares the crap out of him (literally apparently), how reliable do you think he's really gonna be?

    I would absolutely flip out if I was working any sort of situation and saw this. No dog should ever be subjected to that. They're just like people, some can handle certain things, some can't, and that's ok!
    Truthfully if one of our dogs were urinating, defecating, teeth chattering, tail between legs, belly to the ground (and I don't mean belly to the ground like slinking through a really tight space in agility- or to reach what they were trained to alert on ) I would be appalled.

    I mean- appalled. And horrified. And would swiftly 'retire' the dog, who should not have been in that situation to begin with. And then I would swiftly retire myself, because clearly I do not have my dogs' best interests in mind. Gah.

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