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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarx View Post
    It is absolutely very odd. They may have more info from the PI that would have lead them that way, something about the boy she was last seen with, something on her computers leading them towards the reservations. I don't know how they ended up there, just that it wasn't from her scent, which is why the other dogs couldn't confirm it. (Maybe the dogs were psychic and knew where to go.)
    Different dogs do different things with different handlers. But lets keep the facts straight? I understand the family requested the dogs.

    They were just confirmed some horrible news about their child/grandchild. Maybe lets have a moment of silence for the family?

    Also, does someone have confirmation of the dogs being 'hired' , is as far as money was exchanged for services? Many times, search teams will volunteer their dogs with no cost whatsoever to families in need. Just sayin.
    Last edited by JustToSeeYouSmile; 03-08-2010 at 10:17 PM.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostwheel View Post
    Do you figure it was just a coincidence, then? As large as San Diego County is, it's awfully odd for the dogs to supposedly track Amber to Pala Library (was that in the original tracking report, does anyone know?), and then she is found in the same area. There are so many other places to drop a body that wouldn't have been anywhere near Pala.

    Not that I doubt what you say, I tend to agree. It's just very odd.
    I can't imagine anyone taking a dead body to the library, that's for sure.

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
    I can't imagine anyone taking a dead body to the library, that's for sure.
    But suppose he took a live Amber to the library, and killed her after? They got in the car drove up the road, went into the "gated" road, she said she wanted to go home, bad things happened....it's a theory.
    Just the facts, Ma'am.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostwheel View Post
    But suppose he took a live Amber to the library, and killed her after? They got in the car drove up the road, went into the "gated" road, she said she wanted to go home, bad things happened....it's a theory.
    Why in the world would anyone in their right mind take a kidnap victim to the library? Where other people could have seen them together? And even assuming she went with whoever it is voluntarily (which I find highly unlikely, as she reportedly never missed school), people would have still seen them together so why didn't anyone report anything about seeing them in the library?
    Last edited by jjenny; 03-08-2010 at 10:14 PM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarx View Post
    I hate to be the one to say it, but the family was taken advantage of. The oldest confirmed successful trail ever run by a canine was 13 days old (and this was under favorable conditions, damp and cool in the pacific northwest). There is the possibility that at some point given the right conditions that might be extended by a few days, but not 6 months. I didn't misread anything right? The dogs were hired in August, she went missing in February.
    Please do confirm the 13 days old "trail run." ? There are dogs trained for a variety of different of scents. For example to, there are dogs that are trained to find live explosives. There are dogs that are trained to find very old, but still live explosives. There are dogs that are trained to find explosives that were dead to begin with.
    The same is true for trailing situations.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by nursebeeme View Post
    these dogs may have set a new world record. tracing her to the same general area her remains would be found 6 months later (and over a year after she vanished) is

    a m a z i n g
    Also, I just heard on the news (will bring a link) that the dogs tracked Amber's scent to the Pala Library, and more specifically, to a video of "Friday the 13th", which was Amber's favorite movie, and to a book about wolves.

    WTH?! I wonder if the bad guy lured her with those items? The news report said that the searchers asked the librarian if Amber had checked out those items, but the librarian said "no".

    >>>snip

    Gardner was registered as a sex offender because of his 2000 conviction for molesting a girl after luring her to his house with the Robin Williams movie "Patch Adams," about a doctor who uses humor to treat patients.

    <<<snip

    Source: Why Gardner Eluded Suspicion | NBC San Diego
    http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loca...med-Some-.html

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by coastal View Post
    Also, I just heard on the news (will bring a link) that the dogs tracked Amber's scent to the Pala Library, and more specifically, to a video of "Friday the 13th", which was Amber's favorite movie, and to a book about wolves.

    WTH?! I wonder if the bad guy lured her with those items? The news report said that the searchers asked the librarian if Amber had checked out those items, but the librarian said "no".

    >>>snip

    Gardner was registered as a sex offender because of his 2000 conviction for molesting a girl after luring her to his house with the Robin Williams movie "Patch Adams," about a doctor who uses humor to treat patients.

    <<<snip

    Source: Why Gardner Eluded Suspicion | NBC San Diego
    http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loca...med-Some-.html
    Gardner taking a girl to a public library? I find that extremely far-fetched. People would have noticed the two of them in the library. It's one thing to lure a girl to his home. Quite the other to the public library full of other people.

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
    Why in the world would anyone in their right mind take a kidnap victim to the library? Where other people could have seen them together? And even assuming she went with whoever it is voluntarily (which I find highly unlikely, as she reportedly never missed school), people would have still seen them together so why didn't anyone report anything about seeing them in the library?
    Who said they went in? He could have stopped outside to drop something in the trash can. There are so many possible theories as to how it COULD have happened. She could have possibly been alive and restrained. Besides, can you tell me who you saw at the library last time you went? Not if they were happy and you didn't know them. They'd have been just some people.

    And as an aside, why would anyone in their right mind kidnap and/or kill someone? After all, they found Shasta Groene in Denny's with her kidnapper. Just sayin'....
    Last edited by Ghostwheel; 03-08-2010 at 10:31 PM.
    Just the facts, Ma'am.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostwheel View Post
    Who said they went in? There are so many possible theories as to how it COULD have happened. She could have possibly been alive and restrained.

    And as an aside, why would anyone in their right mind kidnap and/or killed someone? After all they found Shasta Groene in Denny's with her kidnapper. Just sayin'....
    That's off topic, but I believe Duncan went there so they could be found. He certainly would have realized that going to a public place, with Shasta, would get him noticed.
    Whoever the guy is who killed Amber, he certainly doesn't appear to have any desire to be found.
    And if they didn't go in, then what is the point of dogs supposedly tracking her to the library?
    Last edited by jjenny; 03-08-2010 at 10:30 PM.

  10. #25
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    All evidence from the dog in the Laci case was thrown out with the exception of what Trimble did at the Marina. Trimble went all over and in circles, to a winery and lost it so many times that it was not found to be credible. It sounds good on the news at first blush, but if you know the case it was a blunder and a hard hit for the credibility for trailing dogs.

    As for the oldest successful trail, it was Norman Wilson with his bloodhounds that found the bodies of the missing hikers some 13 days later. There are many places to find his name. I personally have it cited in a number of books I own.

    Yes, dogs are trained for different scents, this is a very important point. Bombs don't lose their scent, that is why they can be found decades later. Drugs keep their scent for years as well, hence why they can find drugs that haven't been touched for years. It takes years for decomposition to happen, again, why a cadaver dog can find a body that's been missing for years and years.
    Now, here is where it changes. Area search dogs are air scenting and picking up "the cone" of traces of human scent. This disappears very fast and they will have no success if the person isn't there as there is nothing for them to smell.
    Trailing dogs are scent specific looking for a particular person and are following tiny particles of human tissue and skin cells. These tiny skin cells (think micro dander) only have a limited shelf life. Also important is that sun and heat are the enemy and will greatly shorten the life of the trail.


  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
    ...
    And if they didn't go in, then what is the point of dogs supposedly tracking her to the library?
    Depends. If they tracked her to the library area, it would indicate the area she was in. If they actually tracked her to a movie and book (first I heard of that, so I don't know how accurate it is), it would indicate she went that far alive and possibly willingly.

    Mind you, I'm not sure I believe all this, just saying that:
    If there is a report from August 2009 that states that these two dogs tracked Amber's scent to the Pala Library, and now her remains are found in the Pala area, less than 5 miles away, that is too weird to be a coincidence. Either the dogs really did some tracking, there was other information that lead the dog handlers to bring the dogs to Pala, the handlers are making up that they tracked to Pala (as in: it was never mentioned until now) or somebody found out the dogs tracked her to Pala, and moved the body to the area. If anyone else has some other reasons why this would not be a coincidence, I'd like some suggestions, because I do not believe:
    Dogs just happen to track to the same area where a body is found.
    Hikers happen upon a body that has been missing for a year when it has just come back into the public eye.

    I just don't. But I'm willing to be convinced, if someone has a good reason.
    Last edited by Ghostwheel; 03-08-2010 at 10:43 PM.
    Just the facts, Ma'am.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarx View Post
    All evidence from the dog in the Laci case was thrown out with the exception of what Trimble did at the Marina. Trimble went all over and in circles, to a winery and lost it so many times that it was not found to be credible. It sounds good on the news at first blush, but if you know the case it was a blunder and a hard hit for the credibility for trailing dogs.

    As for the oldest successful trail, it was Norman Wilson with his bloodhounds that found the bodies of the missing hikers some 13 days later. There are many places to find his name. I personally have it cited in a number of books I own.

    Yes, dogs are trained for different scents, this is a very important point. Bombs don't lose their scent, that is why they can be found decades later. Drugs keep their scent for years as well, hence why they can find drugs that haven't been touched for years. It takes years for decomposition to happen, again, why a cadaver dog can find a body that's been missing for years and years.
    Now, here is where it changes. Area search dogs are air scenting and picking up "the cone" of traces of human scent. This disappears very fast and they will have no success if the person isn't there as there is nothing for them to smell.
    Trailing dogs are scent specific looking for a particular person and are following tiny particles of human tissue and skin cells. These tiny skin cells (think micro dander) only have a limited shelf life. Also important is that sun and heat are the enemy and will greatly shorten the life of the trail.
    Especially if a car is used to either transport the body or the live girl, as it presumably was. I am not exactly convinced as to whether the dogs would really be able to do what they are said to have done.

  13. #28
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    Jjenny,
    There is no certification for car trailing, because it hasn't been found to be reliable. It's been done in desperate times on fresh cases with so so results, the older the case the more dismal the results. Think about it, you are searching skin cells. When they are coming off the person on a trail they are free falling and plentiful. Now when you get in a car, you are not being hit by the air the same way and they have to get out of the vehicle (I'm betting she wasn't hanging her window out to aid in the scent distribution). The trail gets much weaker, and that would be a fresh trail. Now take that same weak trail and add 6 months to it and weather and such... We tried car trailing for Christina Williams a week after her abduction. Both dogs were able to get on the freeway with a direction of travel, one made it onto the exit where her body would later be found, but none of them could pick it up past the offramp, and that was only a week old. It's just not a good situation once they get in a car.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarx View Post
    Jjenny,
    There is no certification for car trailing, because it hasn't been found to be reliable. It's been done in desperate times on fresh cases with so so results, the older the case the more dismal the results. Think about it, you are searching skin cells. When they are coming off the person on a trail they are free falling and plentiful. Now when you get in a car, you are not being hit by the air the same way and they have to get out of the vehicle (I'm betting she wasn't hanging her window out to aid in the scent distribution). The trail gets much weaker, and that would be a fresh trail. Now take that same weak trail and add 6 months to it and weather and such... We tried car trailing for Christina Williams a week after her abduction. Both dogs were able to get on the freeway with a direction of travel, one made it onto the exit where her body would later be found, but none of them could pick it up past the offramp, and that was only a week old. It's just not a good situation once they get in a car.
    I am with you. If these dogs did what they are alleged to have done-those would have to be some super dogs, would you agree? As far as I understand it, we are talking about supposedly following a girl (or a body) to a location far away from where she went missing, and quite some time after it happened. And presumably the girl (or the body) didn't walk there. So the dogs would be presumably trailing a car quite a time later after the girl went missing.
    Last edited by jjenny; 03-08-2010 at 11:00 PM.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuziQ View Post
    I'm not sure I would believe anything Michelle Bart has to say.
    This time should be about Amber and her family not about Michelle Bart.

    That's not to say the Escondido PD didn't make mistakes in this case. I just don't think Michelle Bart should be the one to point that out.
    Last edited by Kimster; 03-09-2010 at 12:01 AM. Reason: removed name calling

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