03-15-2010, 12:06 AM #1
Casey Returned to the Disposal Site - Theories
We've had some success recently revisiting specific aspects of the case to generate revealing observations. IMHO, the notion that Casey revisited the disposal site after the initial disposal represents yet another opportunity to do the same.
The difficulty in doing this comes in managing the threads so that they don't become parallel discussions of the same subject-matter. For example, we have ping threads for each day where we drill into the detail of Casey's movements. And tracking Casey's movements is critical to determining when/if she returned to the disposal site.
With that in mind, let's try to continue doing the detailed work in the individual day threads (JWG just gave us a great example for July 1) then bring the overview of that work to this thread to put it in context with the 'bigger picture'.
Infommercial over...time to set-up the sleuthing...
AZLawyer recently sleuthed from the phone records what very likely appears to be Cindy's attempts to contact the phone numbers Casey provided her for ZFG and other members of ZFG's merry band. Required reading for actively contributing to this thread, IMHO here: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95046"]Cindy's attempts to contact "Zanny"? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
The Cindy-attempting-to-contact-ZFG thread brought back into focus Casey's adventures the week of 6/30-7/5.
Specific to the potential for Casey revisiting the Suburban Dr. disposal site during this period, not intending to be all-inclusive, (see individual ping threads for details) so far we see...
- Casey secured gas cans only to find the Pontiac missing from Amscot
- Casey received a flurry of calls to vmail, presumably from Cindy, just after midnight
- Casey showered @ Jesse's - widely speculated she wanted to retrieve something to plant w/ the remains to frame him
- Casey stopped by Tony's apt. briefly although she didn't have a key
- Casey, in Tony's Jeep, performed ~3 looping maneuvers in the area of the disposal site during the early evening hours
- Casey left Ricardo & Amy's in the wee morning hours and pinged near the disposal site @ 4:50AM while she called Ryan
- Casey's behavior suggests 'relief' (e.g. began "Diary of Days", got tattoo)
- Casey sent Cindy on a goose chase to Universal so Casey could get into the house - driven there by Sean after receiving her tattoo.
Other information that may or may not be related:
- Casey received a manicure this week
- CSI reported a small stain in Tony's Jeep, along w/ some plant matter on the undercarriage, IIRC
- Casey cleaned Tony's Jeep before his return
- Ricardo stated Casey told him she was doing laundry one morning before he left for work
- General speculation that the "chase" George related to the FBI occurred during this period w/ Casey driving Tony's Jeep vs. Cindy's 4-Runner
Did Casey fulfill the adage that the criminal, "always returns"? If she did, when & why? What did she hope to accomplish?
Last edited by BondJamesBond; 03-15-2010 at 01:01 AM.
03-15-2010, 12:31 AM #2
Some food-for-thought points, not necessarily my own, but, summarizing FWIW:
- Did the 'disappearance' of the Pontiac from Amscot have Casey in a quandary over what she might have left in it, or perhaps with the remains (e.g. bag-o-trash from Tony's)?
- Did Casey think the Anthony's had been contacted directly and taken the Pontiac to Hopespring Dr. themselves?
- Did Casey's return to the remains result in her inability to locate them (need to check rainfall) hence her declaration to LE that she really didn't know where Caylee was?
- Did Casey intend to move the remains after having time to think about her original choice of location?
- Did the Brackenwood house provide an opportune location from which to observe traffic coming & going before moving in closer?
Last edited by BondJamesBond; 03-15-2010 at 12:40 AM.
03-15-2010, 01:45 AM #3
If I had abandoned a car with the remains of a body in my trunk and expected to go back and get it, once my boyfriend was safely out of smelling distance (NY), I'd wet my pants if the car was nowhere-to-be-found when I went back to where I left it. I'd be thinking maybe my parents had it. But, KC wasn't frantically trying to get in touch with Cindy so she could fish for info and find out her mother knew.
Instead, Casey seems to be afraid to hear what Cindy might say and is just listening to the voice messages. Maybe the drive-bys by the Anthony house were scoping for information, seeing if her car was there or if there were a bunch of full of official looking vehicles around the house on Hopespring.
Last edited by Jolynna; 03-15-2010 at 02:40 PM.
03-15-2010, 02:01 AM #4
03-15-2010, 02:09 AM #5
"It would seem to me that June 16, 2008 was the last time that the victim was viewed by her grandparents. It became quite evident that from the OS of the Defense that the 16th was a date of great importance and that a so called time line of activities dealing with CA, LA, GA and ICA on the 16th and what, if any, activities took place on the 15th, 16th and 17th of June on 24 hour cycles would have been, at least, of a minimal requirement of review. I take it at some point you had a computer expert look at that data?" HHJP, 6/21/11
03-15-2010, 04:52 AM #6Inactive
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
As to why a revisit, I've always thought she went back just to look at Caylee. Could have been more, e.g., get evidence to plant, but a trip to gaze with pride on her handiwork, particularly at a time she was angry with Cindy when Cindy was bugging her, would fit her psychology IMO. The July 1 flurry of calls from Cindy fits that.
Oh yeah, KC went back. IMO.
When did KC have those nightmares with cold sweats? And when did she upload that creepy picture of an apple I think it was carved like a skull? Thinking they might fit in here.
I'll check the dates on the nightmares and apple skull later today. Just woke up. Always need coffee for my trips into KC's head.
03-15-2010, 06:21 AM #7
I tend to think Casey wouldn't have wanted to interact w/ the remains. Need to firm up the timing of Casey allegedly washing clothes first-thing in the morning @ Ricardo's. IF that was 7/2 morning immediately after this visit one possibility might be that Casey retrieved some article that was in/near the remains and the decomp got on clothing for which she didn't have a change. IOW...she got back to Rick & Amy's wearing something that had a little decomp on it and decided to toss it in the wash vs. throw it in the trash.
To add to AZ's list of Casey's actions 7/2...actions that might be indicative of a disposal site visit...the last viewing of the nursing home pic of Caylee @ the time of penning Diary of Days may also be a need to remember Caylee as she was vs. as she had possible come very close to witnessing.
Thinking the initial disposal was very, very quick...necessitating a return to retrieve or check for some article that might tie her directly to the scene.
Can't ignore the potential memorial from JCPenney though. Even though we heard Cindy say a WTP was missing. Is there a scenario that might've had Casey purchase a new WTP blanket to place w/ Caylee (sentimentally)?
03-15-2010, 08:09 AM #8
I find it hard to imagine KC didn't return to the disposal site. It seems a compelling act that murderers do for probably a number of reasons. I have always thought loosely in my mind that KC's statement that she didn't know where Caylee was "was" based partly in truth. I feel it is possible she did return to the site and was unable to locate Caylee after the initial dump. I think this discovery gave her comfort and confidence that she would not be held responsible for Caylee's death. She used the tiny truth that she didn't know "where" Caylee was (exactly.....) and that became her entire reality. What drives any murderer to revisit? Most obvious to me is to ensure you have not been detected somehow....to be the fly on the wall....to make sure you are still in control of the situation...??? JMO....
03-15-2010, 08:54 AM #9
One addition to Bond's timeline above. There are actually two flurries of unanswered Cindy calls to Casey that occurred in the wee hours of the morning: both July 1 and 2.
7/1/08 TUE 1:43:15 AM
7/1/08 TUE 1:51:18 AM
7/1/08 TUE 1:52:48 AM
7/1/08 TUE 2:02:34 AM
7/2/08 WED 12:13:32 AM
7/2/08 WED 12:15:18 AM
7/2/08 WED 12:17:09 AM
7/2/08 WED 12:18:35 AM
7/2/08 WED 12:20:27 AM
7/2/08 WED 12:24:18 AM
7/2/08 WED 12:31:05 AM
7/2/08 WED 12:37:38 AM
Regarding Bond's question: "Did Casey think the Anthony's had been contacted directly and taken the Pontiac to Hopespring Dr. themselves?", I thought that might be the case as well, thinking KC simply was avoiding taking their calls to avoid the confrontation. However, I see she actually returned their calls during daylight hours:
6/30/08 MON 5:35:01 PM
6/30/08 MON 9:09:38 PM
7/1/08 TUE 7:54:56 AM
7/1/08 TUE 1:13:31 PM
7/1/08 TUE 4:56:13 PM
Note the 5:35 PM call on the 30th is about 1 hour after KC discovered the car missing from Amscot. Was she testing the waters to see whether or not the parents had the vehicle?
03-15-2010, 09:19 AM #10
Not for the faint of heart
Just to throw my opinion out there as to whether or not KC took something potentially incriminating from the site...
The morning of July 2 marked the 12th day the remains would have been in the woods and the 16th day since death. By now the remains would have been dis-articulated by animals and largely skeletonized.
If KC did go back into the woods / brush to assure herself that the remains would be difficult to find (or with the possible intention of moving them to a "better" hiding spot) she would have been confronted with a scene straight out of a horror movie.
The same would be true if she planted syringe evidence to incriminate someone else, such as Jesse. IIRC the Disney bag with the Gatorade bottle was found underneath the laundry / trash bag combination. Placing the Disney bag in that location would have required KC to lift the laundry bag, and she would have been exposed to the full horror of what she had done.
At night. In the dark.
I can imagine that would leave quite the imprint in her mind, one she would want to erase by viewing the Father's Day video.
03-15-2010, 10:39 AM #11
RE: post-midnight calls. Capt Obvious here...(Insert theme music)
2 observations, neither of them ground-breaking:
Cindy was on vacation this week & the "story" for this period was Casey in J-ville w/ JH, right? So:
1) The timing of these post-midnight calls is INconsistent w/ I-wanna-talk-to-Caylee motive.
2) If Casey's story was that she was, "working an event", the timing of these calls might fit w/ Cindy abiding by a Casey plea of, "I'm busy! Mom. Let's talk after I get off work" But, IIRC, Casey wasnKt claiming that she was working.
Any clues in the J-ville alibi that would explain this timing on 2 nights?
Last edited by BondJamesBond; 03-15-2010 at 10:41 AM.
03-15-2010, 10:52 AM #12
Adding, JWG, that one - albeit stretching - yet similar scenario might've been a pre-conceived plan(that's where the major stretch comes in for 10-min-@-a-time-Casey ) to lift the plastic-bagged-only remains into a purchased, handled laundry bag for transport elsewhere. Only to find (a) the remains scattered as you described, and/or (less likely), the remains partially fall from the deteriorating plastic bags upon lifting...resulting in a skull in the as-found condition. In this scenario the plan would've been aborted, the laundry bag, now contaminated, left on the ground w/ the remains partially in...and a slightly, decomp-stained Casey trudging away, cursing.
OK...I should stick to writing fiction
Last edited by BondJamesBond; 03-15-2010 at 10:55 AM.
03-15-2010, 10:53 AM #13
great thread thanks BJB
03-15-2010, 12:35 PM #14
My laptop is in the shop and I am on my other one thus I do not have access to my Word document with a timeline and links. I am sure the night sweats and nightmares were noted when Tony got back from New York on July 5th and after. He stated they occured 2 to 4 times.
03-15-2010, 01:11 PM #15Registered User
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Great thread Bond.
Nothing really new to add-just wanted to add my 2 cents that I believe KC likely did return to the remains site to either leave something or pick something up.
Two possibilities have been suggested here that I think definitely fit with what we've seen of KC's personality and way of thinking:
It seems likely to me that she was having the nightmares after being confronted with the reality of decomposition (either by returning to the dump site or with what she saw of the process while little Caylee was still in the trunk, or both). I think the decomposition process was a major shock to her self-centered little senses. We know how little she thinks ahead. Therefore, she likely never even considered/imagined having to deal with the harsh realities of a dead body on which nature is taking it's course, or that the process would even (inevitably) occur. Why else would she drive around so long with a dead body in her trunk in the FL heat? I mean, duh.
You mentioned that perhaps the body was under water or that she couldn't find it. A definite possibility IMO. I have always thought there was something to the way she kept insisting she "had no idea" where Caylee was. I too have wondered if there wasn't some truth (in a KC-stretching-and-bending-the-truth-kind-of-way) to that statement as she seemed fixated on it. I've thought it was true on some level, in KC's mind at least.
Great thread guys. Hats off to JWG, Bond, AZLaywer and all of you.
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