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Thread: WA - Shantina Smiley, 29, & Azriel Carver, 8 (fnd deceased), Olympia, Mar 2010 - #3

  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by pufnstuf View Post
    I had assumed that this was an overhead shot after the van had been removed. I don't think that those are her tracks that circle in and then back out. Could be the neighbors who found the van.

    The tide would have washed away her tracks down to the waterline.

    Seems if the van were still there, the photog would have included it in the pic.
    Does anyone know what that is down there next to the tire marks?

    Do you think it is a good suspect for the car marks on the side?
    Last edited by 90Nine; 03-20-2010 at 06:47 PM.

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  3. #127
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    I would not be surprised if more unhappy information comes out. People who have had kids taken away, allowed kids to be placed in danger, and so forth rarely just have one or two instances. The kids are often in danger again and again and again, until tragedy happens like it has.

    Odds are SS is dead. I am sorry for her rotten life, but why give Azriel such a rotten life? By the way, the minute I heard his name I was perturbed. That is a very famous name, in literature, a lot of fantasy literature -- it's the name of the ANGEL OF DEATH. It seems to me to just be taking him so lightly to have named him that. Seems he didn't really COUNT, didn't really MATTER his whole short life. Oh yes, I'm angry.

    ----

    To those who keep wondering about shouting, screaming in the water, I'm not really sure how many screams a person could get out in that extremely cold water if they were knocked off their feet and with the clothes soaked and pulling you down. The water is so cold it takes your breath away.

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  5. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulR View Post
    By the way, I didn't know girls could join boy scouts. Is that new?

    (Serious question.)
    Please refer to Idaho4Groenes post #113. Thank you.
    Last edited by Lipin One; 03-20-2010 at 06:54 PM.
    GROW...

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  7. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by 90Nine View Post
    Does anyone know what that is down there next to the tire marks?

    Do you think it is a good suspect for the car marks on the side?


    I posted the pic here so we could look at it again. I have no idea what it is.

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  9. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by RubyRed View Post


    I posted the pic here so we could look at it again. I have no idea what it is.
    IDK - but it looks like it might be a dock/pier/boardwalk for when the tide is high.
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  11. #131
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    Smiley was last seen alive at 10 pm. Rob was with the stepfather from 8pm on. Therefore she was last seen alive after Rob has an alibi. He may be used to talking about himself, but unless he can be in two places at once, he's not directly involved.

    Also, the Ariel's dad said on the D&R (?) radio show that he thought he seemed like a good guy and loved Smiley and Ariel and that he (Carver) didn't have any suspicions about him, based on talking to him.

    So I think more likely booze is to blame in this mystery.
    .
    .

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    You lost my duct tape! I was excited to have so much left! Thats why I get for giving you my purse… Stupid costume that didn’t work the way it should have…. what a waste of gaff tape…"

    Did police ever ask Amy what brand of duct tape???

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  13. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver~Bell View Post
    I would not be surprised if more unhappy information comes out. People who have had kids taken away, allowed kids to be placed in danger, and so forth rarely just have one or two instances. The kids are often in danger again and again and again, until tragedy happens like it has.

    Odds are SS is dead. I am sorry for her rotten life, but why give Azriel such a rotten life? By the way, the minute I heard his name I was perturbed. That is a very famous name, in literature, a lot of fantasy literature -- it's the name of the ANGEL OF DEATH. It seems to me to just be taking him so lightly to have named him that. Seems he didn't really COUNT, didn't really MATTER his whole short life. Oh yes, I'm angry.

    ----

    To those who keep wondering about shouting, screaming in the water, I'm not really sure how many screams a person could get out in that extremely cold water if they were knocked off their feet and with the clothes soaked and pulling you down. The water is so cold it takes your breath away.

    It may be the Angel of Death in fantasy literature but it's actually Hebrew and doesn't mean that at ALL!

    The meaning of the name Azriel is God Is My Aid
    The origin of the name Azriel is Hebrew
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  15. #133
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    The only thing the bf is guilty of is poor judgement. He will live with this tragedy for the rest of his life. Alcohol and the choices Shantina made that night, have resulted in this sad ending. He has lost his future step-son and more than likely his future wife.

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  17. #134
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    This is interesting - great link for a better view of the property from all directions.

    The North view provides additional insight on how high the tides could go. You can click on the photo and drag it to see additional parts of the property.

    If you click on the North photo and drag it towards the lower left corner is - you can see the end of the beach.

    I thought the beach was continuous, but it actually ends.

    http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/bi...birds-eye-view

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  19. #135
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    TheNewsTribune.com
    Section: Crime News < Back to Regular Story Page

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Boy's body: 'Dynamic' tides carry objects for miles in hours

    MIKE ARCHBOLD; Staff writer
    The tidal currents of South Puget Sound make it easier to understand how the body of a missing boy showed up on a Fox Island beach 20 miles north of Dana Passage in the Olympia area.

    Azriel Carver, 8, was last seen alive Saturday night with his mother, Shantina Smiley, north of Olympia. Her van was found on the beach near Boston Harbor off Dana Passage. She is still missing.

    The outgoing current heads north out of Dana Passage and circulates around Anderson and McNeil islands before heading for the Tacoma Narrows, said Debbie Payton, an oceanographer with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Seattle.

    The Narrows is the drain, collecting the outgoing tide for all of South Puget Sound.

    “If a wood chip is moving on the surface of the water (in Puget Sound) the net movement always is north and out of Puget Sound,” Payton said. “It may or may not beach. It depends on the wind.”

    The combination of tides, tide-created currents and wind make projecting the exact journey of an item on the surface difficult.

    Even the object itself is a variable. Payton said bodies initially sink to the bottom where current movement is less. They tend to stay there until they decompose and gases refloat the body to the surface.

    Then current and wind take over.

    Judging by the current speed north of Olympia, she said, a floating object could move eight to 12 nautical miles one way on a single tide. Going from Dana Passage to the southern end of Fox Island isn’t unreasonable, she said.

    The island is the last barrier for objects floating north to the Narrows.

    Unless the winds blow, floating objects tend to stay close to the center of a narrow passage where the current normally is faster. Even if a wind blew an object toward a beach, she said the next tide could refloat it and send it on its way.

    “It’s very dynamic,” Payton said. “Where the water is deep and wide, the current is slow. Where it is shallow and narrow it goes fast.”

    In the Puget Sound that dynamic can change rapidly, she said

    Mike Archbold: 253-597-8692

    mike.archbold@thenewstribune.com
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    Terms of Service | Privacy Policy | About Our Ads | Contact Us | About Us | Site Map | RSS
    1950 South State Street, Tacoma, Washington 98405 253-597-8742
    © Copyright 2010 Tacoma News, Inc. A subsidiary of The McClatchy Company

    Read more: http://www.thenewstribune.com/2010/0...#ixzz0ilchoPas

    I hope it's ok to post this copywritten article that was in our paper today. I found it very interesting.
    Last edited by jmarple; 03-20-2010 at 07:40 PM.

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  21. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by darlin gal View Post
    It may be the Angel of Death in fantasy literature but it's actually Hebrew and doesn't mean that at ALL!

    The meaning of the name Azriel is God Is My Aid
    The origin of the name Azriel is Hebrew

    Actually, I believe that the Angel of Death is Azrael, totally different than Azriel.

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  23. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexiintoronto View Post
    He also said that she was 'back on the wagon' and would never drive while drinking, and would not put her son in harm's way - and the court records say otherwise. I understand that he wouldn't want to air her dirty laundry in public, but he was trying to negate what the evidence was pointing to.

    (I don't want to add to his pain, but I think he did a disservice to the investigation by discounting the evidence that she was likely repeating past bad behaviour.)
    BBM (bold by me)

    Hi Lexi - I don't think he is obligated to tell the public, media, or anyone the truth about Smiley - just as long as he is accurate and truthful with LE, FBI, and anyone involved in the investigation. I'm assuming he told Law Enforcement the truth about Smiley. moo

    ETA: he's not even obligated to tell the media the truth about himself - if he begins to shuffle LE around, he can be charged with obstruction. MOO
    Last edited by eyes4crime; 03-20-2010 at 07:53 PM.
    Please think long and hard before calling a child a 'run-a-way':
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  25. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by 90Nine View Post
    This is interesting - great link for a better view of the property from all directions.

    The North view provides additional insight on how high the tides could go. You can click on the photo and drag it to see additional parts of the property.

    If you click on the North photo and drag it towards the lower left corner is - you can see the end of the beach.

    I thought the beach was continuous, but it actually ends.

    http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/bi...birds-eye-view
    Thank you for that, it was interesting. Which house heard the knock at 1am?

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  27. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knox View Post
    Thanks Calliope. The reason I ask is Shantina was also a leader, the last contact with CPS had been very recent? Is that not something that shows up on a background check?
    My understanding is that the only things that are shown on a typical background check are adjudicated (ie: "tried and convicted") offenses or current charges awaiting trial. CPS involvement is in a different system used for investigation-- if warranted, the info is turned over to the prosecutor for charges. So, unless she was adjudicated on charges (ie: felony child endangerment), it wouldn't be on a background check.


    Unless it's an FBI type inquiry, then they call your BFF from high school and ask what cocktails you like to have on the weekend. (My best friend of 25 years is an attorney for the feds... guess who got a call when she applied for the latest position?)
    A run-away may leave on purpose, but that doesn't mean that they are able to get back home.... Never stop searching.

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  29. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by RubyRed View Post
    Thank you for that, it was interesting. Which house heard the knock at 1am?
    The house that heard the knock is about a half mile east (ish) down the other end of the beach.

    http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sour...33946&t=h&z=15

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  31. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulR View Post
    By the way, I didn't know girls could join boy scouts. Is that new?

    (Serious question.)
    She reminded me of this; I'd forgotten about Venture.

    http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Venturing.aspx

    She says all adults are checked. Which makes me wonder if SS was actually a leader or simply helped RS.

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  33. #142
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    I don't think RS had anything directly to do with the tragedy, but I think he suspected that something might be amiss ahead of time. Did something happen @ home before that Saturday?

    SS left a clear trail that night about where she was - stopping @ several stores, bought a jug of wine, stopped at a diner but left without taking the food ordered, stopped at a house. In at least two of these locations, she said she was lost & asked for directions to I-5, which from my first post I have maintained didn't make sense, especially since it was reported that her grandfather said she visited Castle Rock recently.

    She was @ the Williams' house approx. 10:00 pm, after driving around "lost" in Olympia for several hours, somehow unable to find I-5, even after looking at a map earlier & being given directions. Low tide @ the beach was approx. 10:34, give or take a few minutes, IIRC. IMO, she drove directly to the beach after leaving the Williams' house.

    From the photos I've seen of that beach, it doesn't look like the kind of soft, loose sand that is easy to get stuck in. I've been stuck on a sandy beach before. The sand on that beach looks like it has a lot of beach rocks, shells, etc. - in other words - things that provide traction. Especially since it's been reported that shellfish are cultivated in those waters. Shellfish leave shells. Traction.

    The getting lost in Olympia for that many hours is curious. It wasn't unfamiliar territory, if she'd been through there recently to visit the grandparents.

    The driving to a remote, difficult to find beach in the dark is also curious, unless she'd been there before. Media & LE have both commented on how remote a location it is - they can't understand how she wound up there - the "opposite direction of her destination."

    Leaving the cell phone behind.

    Stopping @ so many different locations during those hours of "being lost". As if she wanted to leave a noticeable trail, and wanted a trail of witnesses that believed she was lost, confused, worried.

    The van she was driving mysteriously stuck in the sand @ the water's edge with the hatch & door open. Mismatched shoes, an orange ball, a half-empty jug of wine, and an asthma inhaler found not far away. Her wallet & car key found in the van. But, mysteriously, her purse & overnight bag are missing.

    Now her little boy has drowned.

    And she is nowhere to be found.

    If her body doesn't wash up on a beach in the near future, I'll be suspicious.
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  35. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knox View Post
    Thanks Calliope. The reason I ask is Shantina was also a leader, the last contact with CPS had been very recent? Is that not something that shows up on a background check?
    I'd think unless there were criminal charges, CPS investigations are private. I know with Aveion, for example, they didn't release specific info on their files until they knew he was deceased. But... wouldn't the DUI be a criminal charge?

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  37. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver~Bell View Post
    I would not be surprised if more unhappy information comes out. People who have had kids taken away, allowed kids to be placed in danger, and so forth rarely just have one or two instances. The kids are often in danger again and again and again, until tragedy happens like it has.

    Odds are SS is dead. I am sorry for her rotten life, but why give Azriel such a rotten life? By the way, the minute I heard his name I was perturbed. That is a very famous name, in literature, a lot of fantasy literature -- it's the name of the ANGEL OF DEATH. It seems to me to just be taking him so lightly to have named him that. Seems he didn't really COUNT, didn't really MATTER his whole short life. Oh yes, I'm angry.

    ----

    To those who keep wondering about shouting, screaming in the water, I'm not really sure how many screams a person could get out in that extremely cold water if they were knocked off their feet and with the clothes soaked and pulling you down. The water is so cold it takes your breath away.
    The first thing I thought of was the smurfs. =\

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  39. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by darlin gal View Post
    It may be the Angel of Death in fantasy literature but it's actually Hebrew and doesn't mean that at ALL!

    The meaning of the name Azriel is God Is My Aid
    The origin of the name Azriel is Hebrew


    Yes, the name literally means 'God Is My Aid,' however, Azrael (also spelled Azriel) is The Archangel of Death.

    I had the same initial gut reaction as Silver~Bell and others.


    Azrael

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Jump to: navigation, search
    This article is about the angel of death. For other uses, see Azriel.
    Not to be confused with Sir Azreal, a Knight of the Round Table.
    Artistic depiction of Azrael, the Angel of Death.


    Azrael is the traditional name of the Archangel of Death. He is also the Angel of Death in Islamic extrabiblical tradition and folklore. It is an English form of the Arabic name Azra'il (عزرائيل) or Azra'eil (عزرایل), the name traditionally attributed to the angel of death in Islam and some Hebrew lore.[1] The Qur'an never uses this name, referring instead to Malak al-Maut (which translates directly as angel of death). It is also spelled Izrail, Izrael, "Azriel", Azrail, Ezraeil, Azraille, Azryel, or Ozryel. Chambers English dictionary uses the spelling Azrael. The name literally means Whom God Helps.[1]



    Thanks,
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  41. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lipin One View Post
    Please refer to Idaho4Groenes post #113. Thank you.
    As the person he was speaking to, I didn't take what he said as anything but a genuine question. I asked the same thing when my daughter told me she was now a boy scout lol. Also (IIRC), scouting in other countries is often coed. I'll check with her but I remember her telling me of a scout troop from England (I think) who spent time at the boy scout camp, and they consisted of both boys and girls.

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  43. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by alsmom View Post
    Actually, I believe that the Angel of Death is Azrael, totally different than Azriel.
    Azriel is one of a number of variant spellings of Azrael, "who is is generally depicted as an archangel (...) Rather than merely representing death personified, Azrael is usually described in Islamic sources as subordinate to the will of God 'with the most profound reverence.' In Jewish mysticism he is identified as the embodiment of evil, not necessarily or specifically evil itself."
    ([ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azrael[/ame])

    While the name Azriel is an unusual one, several important figures - rabbis, Talmudic scholars, journalists, professors - have shared the name.
    ([ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azriel[/ame])

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  45. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calliope View Post
    I'd think unless there were criminal charges, CPS investigations are private. I know with Aveion, for example, they didn't release specific info on their files until they knew he was deceased. But... wouldn't the DUI be a criminal charge?
    What you are saying makes sense now that I think about it. CPS investigations would only be relevant if criminal charges were filed as a result of said investigation.

    I am not trying to be judgmental, just wondering how thoroughly people who work with children are checked out in organizations like the Scouts. The DUI was also H&R IIRC, so yes I think it would be on a person's record.

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  47. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knox View Post
    What you are saying makes sense now that I think about it. CPS investigations would only be relevant if criminal charges were filed as a result of said investigation.

    I am not trying to be judgmental, just wondering how thoroughly people who work with children are checked out in organizations like the Scouts. The DUI was also H&R IIRC, so yes I think it would be on a person's record.
    Ah, you know what. She wouldn't have had a criminal record on the DUI:

    A Kitsap Sun search of court records revealed that Smiley was charged with DUI and hit and run in April 2005. She received a deferred prosecution, according to the Cowlitz County Clerk’s Office, meaning that her charges would be dropped if she stayed out of trouble. It appears the deferred prosecution was to last five years, and she’d had no problems since. It’s set to end April 13, 2010.
    http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2010/m...-and-order-in/


    That means she was never prosecuted, never convicted, and so no criminal record.

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  49. #150
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    This is the Boy Scouts Adult application (pdf): http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/28-501.pdf

    It states a criminal background check will be done and has a place for the applicant to indicate if they've been convicted of a criminal offense and if their drivers license had been suspended.

    I don't know if a DUI precludes a leadership position but there is a strict no alcohol policy at scouting events.

    Here's a link to the WA state petition for Deferred Prosecution (Word doc): http://www.courts.wa.gov/forms/docum...100_012010.doc
    Last edited by powayparent; 03-20-2010 at 08:38 PM.

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