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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by norest4thewicked View Post
    I will comment about Crilley and the fact that, again, she can't be the blonde in the orange chair.
    I'll record you as a "NO" vote.

    But, often times we find that too many wild hypotheses just serves to muddy the water even more. I know that WS is here for us to share our thoughts, but I just think that we can get caught up on one idea (especially if we've thought of it) and don't keep an open mind about other possibilities...ones that could truly be helpful.
    Hypotheses are what we start from. The theory has to start looking not so crazy after a bit of checking out or you should probably drop it or at least file it. Also, you need to know when a thing is totally ruled out as in dead.

    New evidence is the key. Better pictures of Crilley, or for that matter Hover would be one example in this case. People coming forward to flat-out state whether a picture is or is not somebody would be another.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfbaynancydrew View Post
    This girl is just haunting. I've never seen a picture that more clearly illustrated the emotion of terror.

    Having said that I don't believe either of the two pics are a match. The first one has curlier hair, dark brown eyes and a different skin tone. The second one has thin lips and a different shape to her face. But they're close.

    I hope this poor girl is one day identified.
    Its heartbreaking. When I posted here about seeing the strand of hair stuck to her face I was completely hearbroken - you look at these photos trying not to read too much into them; there have been photos that look like the person MUST have died at his hand only to be identified but when you see little details like the hair stuck to her face you have to be scared for her.
    Last edited by KateB; 04-03-2015 at 03:25 AM. Reason: repair url tag.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by WildHuncher View Post
    The girl in #1 has eyes that are much too dark to be #3.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by punklove View Post
    The girl in #1 has eyes that are much too dark to be #3.
    That bothered me, too, but compare just the two pictures of Hover.



    One is too yellow to the be the other, who is pinkish-orange. The orange one has darker eyes than the yellow one. The yellow one has greener hair. The cheekbone shapes don't quite match. (The more she smiles, the higher and rounder her cheekbones get. Fur Coat Woman sure isn't smiling.) The Hover pictures in color look subtly latent-image damaged, something you can get if you leave the film in the camera too long, or leave the camera in a hot car. I have some pink snow scenes with a similar look, for instance.

    Just for the record, another Hover pic we haven't used yet. Quality not so hot and it's black and white, but it's another angle on another day.



    I'd appreciate your thoughts. I'm holding off from laying out what similarities I see to give more people a chance to chime in. Wanted to see if anyone else had the same reaction or saw any of the same things. (So far, just one.)

    That's why I merely said "Could be" in response to plait's post. The astute observer would note I used a filename of "Bingo" on the side-by-side, though.
    Last edited by WildHuncher; 01-25-2011 at 10:14 AM.

  5. #65
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    Just FYI...the yellow in the left one and the pink in the right one are from processing...not from the person.
    My book, More Than Just A Pretty Face, about the unidentified photos of Rodney Alcala, will be published in 2017. Please visit and join my Facebook group to get all of the most recent information.





    https://www.facebook.com/groups/621913531276073/

  6. #66
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    Just above, I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by WildHuncher View Post
    I'm holding off from laying out what similarities I see to give more people a chance to chime in.
    But up above THAT I said:
    Not everyone is seeing what I'm seeing on the side-by-sides posted earlier between Hover at 23 and Fur Coat (at whatever age). That somewhat surprised me given the hair, nose, and cheekbones but I agree with what people are saying about eyes and skin tones
    Oopsie. I was clearly forgetting something in one place, the other, or both.

    More just for completeness and not because it adds anything much, the side-by-side with the black-and-white. It does show how not smiling flattens out her cheekbones to be a better match for the crestfallen Fur Coat.



    Regarding arguments that have been made from the match being impossible or unthinkable on grounds other than lack of similarity ... It's a "crap happens" world. Mary Todd Lincoln would be an example of impossible. Mike Ditka would be unthinkable. But anything you can say is unthinkable, you have obviously thought up. I actually have no idea where Ditka was at any time in the 70s.

  7. #67
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    Backing off a little bit ... I'm perfectly happy with arguments that Alcala was in prison when so-and-so disappeared, or that he's not known to have ever visited Bangkok, or whatever.

  8. #68
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    For the sake of reference, this news article has another photo of Ellen Hover:

    http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/da...l-killer-81696
    <-- Watched one too many Hanna-Barbera "teenage detective" cartoons as a kid.

  9. #69
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    I think that article also eliminates girl in the coat as Hover as she is described as having "gorgeous brown eyes". Girl in the coat's eyes would never be described that way--her's are a stunning green.

  10. #70
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    Why is her hair freshly brushed, and her eyebrows nicely plucked. YET there is that mark around her mouth like she had been bound and gagged. There would have been a stuggle which would have messed up her hair. Thats why I am wondering if its a guy that trimmed his beard. This girl looks Arab or Greek, mediteranian decent. Something about the pic that says it could have been taken abroad. There is another pic in the collection that was taken in Sweden presumably by RA.


  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfbaynancydrew View Post
    I think that article also eliminates girl in the coat as Hover as she is described as having "gorgeous brown eyes". Girl in the coat's eyes would never be described that way--her's are a stunning green.
    That threw me as well. The description of Cornelia Crilley as "brown-haired" doesn't work with her being the blonde in the orange chair, either.

    But I'm not eliminating either one in my own mind yet. Just for one thing, Fur Coat's eyes register surprisingly brown for me, much more than I remembered, when I blow them up big and run the color tester on them.

    Here's a big, big caveat. I have lousy color vision with lots of red-green deficiency so I actually have no idea what other people are seeing in questions like this. But the numbers the machine is generating (more red than green, low blue) correspond with brown.

    And those sad, haunting eyes certainly are gorgeous. It's unusual in my experience to see a light brown eye. That's what I get, though.



    Regarding the hair thing, I heard of a woman in Baltimore whose hair changed color. Turns out she was doing something on purpose to make that happen.

    If Crilley and Hover aren't in the locker pictures, then there are some remarkable coincidences. But sometimes in life there ARE remarkable coincidences so I'm not betting the farm.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by WildHuncher View Post
    That threw me as well. The description of Cornelia Crilley as "brown-haired" doesn't work with her being the blonde in the orange chair, either.

    But I'm not eliminating either one in my own mind yet. Just for one thing, Fur Coat's eyes register surprisingly brown for me, much more than I remembered, when I blow them up big and run the color tester on them.

    Here's a big, big caveat. I have lousy color vision with lots of red-green deficiency so I actually have no idea what other people are seeing in questions like this. But the numbers the machine is generating (more red than green, low blue) correspond with brown.

    And those sad, haunting eyes certainly are gorgeous. It's unusual in my experience to see a light brown eye. That's what I get, though.



    Regarding the hair thing, I heard of a woman in Baltimore whose hair changed color. Turns out she was doing something on purpose to make that happen.

    If Crilley and Hover aren't in the locker pictures, then there are some remarkable coincidences. But sometimes in life there ARE remarkable coincidences so I'm not betting the farm.


    Fur coat girls eye are green, which are usually described as hazel, which does have elements of brown mixed in it. They're multi-colored, changing with mood and with colors worn. My husband and daughter have green eyes almost identical to this girl and they can look emerald green, slate gray, the more olive brown hazel, etc. But no one would ever describe them as "gorgeous brown". MY eyes (one happens to be my actual eye in my avatar) have been described as "gorgeous brown". There is a big difference.

    Honestly, even beyond the eye color, I really don't think they look like the same person.

    Edited to add: They do definitely look "ALIKE", however 1. Alcala most likely had types he liked, therefore picking similar girls to relive kills, etc and 2. The cops have released those photos as unidentified. They know he killed Hover, her body was found, the cops would have already matched this girl up and eliminated these photos from the public stack and moved them into evidence. It just logically makes no sense that this would be Hover, that we, the websleuths looking at the cropped picture the cops provided and the cops, seeing this picture uncropped and perhaps a dozen or so more of the same girl that might not have been fit to print, wouldn't have been able to put two and two together.
    Last edited by sfbaynancydrew; 01-28-2011 at 03:00 AM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by plait View Post
    Why is her hair freshly brushed, and her eyebrows nicely plucked. YET there is that mark around her mouth like she had been bound and gagged. There would have been a stuggle which would have messed up her hair. Thats why I am wondering if its a guy that trimmed his beard. This girl looks Arab or Greek, mediteranian decent. Something about the pic that says it could have been taken abroad. There is another pic in the collection that was taken in Sweden presumably by RA.

    I'm sorry, there's no way that's a dude lol. I live in SF, I've seen a LOT of trannies in my day!

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfbaynancydrew View Post
    Fur coat girls eye are green, which are usually described as hazel, which does have elements of brown mixed in it...
    That makes sense. As I said, I'm out of my depth on color issues with my red-green deficiency.

    Edited to add: They do definitely look "ALIKE", however 1. Alcala most likely had types he liked, therefore picking similar girls to relive kills, etc and 2...
    That could be a big part of the problem with the otherwise remarkable similarities. I didn't think much of the Hover idea when it was posted, but when I Googled and side-by-sided I thought, "What are the odds of THAT?" Now I know hair isn't fixed in stone, but they even had the same funny arc of highlight at about the ear level, never mind issues of cheekbones, nose, etc.

    So then I go looking for Crilley and another picture jumps right out. On the thread for that picture, based at first on internal evidence, they're talking about the possibility of her being a flight attendant. Now, what are the odds of THAT (Hover's side-by-side) AND THAT (Crilley's side-by-side) and THAT (the flight attendant thing)? Considering, that is, that they're known to be connected to Alcala either by his DNA, or his known alias in a datebook, or by him taking the picture.

    But now there's a better picture of Crilley and the new good picture doesn't snap in as well as the old bad one. Posted about that on the "orange chair" thread. I'm still not slamming the door but when new evidence comes in and the case gets weaker, not stronger, that's a sign it's probably going to be a dead end.

  15. #75
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    Just posted this on the "Singing Girl" thread.

    Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Singing Girl in Headphones


    The similarities keep comin'.
    Last edited by KateB; 04-03-2015 at 03:25 AM. Reason: repair url tag.

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