MS MS - Bay St Louis, WhtFem 37-42, UP2841, no teeth, 'black lung', emphysema, chron bronchitis, May'98

I also agree that if it was known about a loved one that is missing having "black lung", it would be key to giving this UID her name back. Wonder if the UID knew she had "black lung" when she was killed, or if she just thought it was emphysema?

I live in Southwestern PA (Westmoreland County) where coal mines were all over the place, but most closed in the 1970's. My grandparents grew up in a coal mining town and back in the day, 1940's -1950's they called it a patch. My parents' neighbor actually has black lung (and he was a coal miner for many years and is in his late 80's)

I live fairly close to the Quecreek mines where 18 men died in 2002, which is in Somerset CountyQuecreek Mine Rescue - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I just thought I would throw it out there about Western PA and coal mines..

Email sent to case manager today. Will let you know when I hear anything.
P

Hold the phone, kids, I may have something here.....

I started playing around with my search parameters tonight. I too thought the black lung would be the key to solving this case. However, I backed off that for a minute and focused on the unique gray eyes. I widened my search parameters in terms of age and time missing, because it sounded like this person may have been living a somewhat transient lifestyle and could have been separated from their family for a long time.

It was a pretty short list, and when I hit Faye Aline Self, the more I looked at it, the more promising it became.

https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/1370/0/




At first glance, she isn't exactly a surefire match for our UID. But Self went missing in 1983 at the age of 26. So I'd expect she'd look older/more haggard 16 years later.

But: Her natural hair color is right, and she was known to dye it.
Her height (5'0 to 5'2) is not at all out of range for 5'3.
Her eyes are grey
She is not wearing earrings in any of the photos I can see.
She had at least one child.
Per Doe Network, she had a hysterectomy.
Per the Doe Network, she wore upper dentures.
Fay is from Louisiana (UID was found in MS, very near Louisiana).

Cons: Faye had a scar on her leg and a vaccination scar on her arm, but perhaps those were less noticeable with time.

There is a thread for her here where you can read more about her disappearance:

LA LA - Faye Aline Self, 26, Armistead, 30 March 1983 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Basically, she was at a bar with friends, told them she had to leave and get home to her baby, but was seen last in the parking lot with another woman and two men. She was never seen again.

In the thread her family is quoted as saying she had a wild streak but they did not think she would leave her baby as she had been more responsible since the baby came.

Ironically, a convicted killer confessed to killing Faye as well, but some on the thread are cynical because his confession doesn't tie in with the known circumstances.

Now, what about the black lung? According to Wikipedia, there are only a few states with underground mines, the kind where you might be likely to develop black lung....Ohio, Kentucky, Illinois, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Colorado, New Mexico, and Utah. That's from memory, but I'm pretty sure that's all of them. So this would mean that Faye would not only have had to leave, but would have had to end up in one of those states if this is indeed her.

Looking at her NamUs file, her daughter, I think, has posted several pictures of Faye. Two of the five or six pics posted are Faye in Colorado. I think the tag on one is "Colorado, of course." So I guess my money would be on Colorado.

So, I wonder if Faye made an excuse to her friends that night and ran off to Colorado with some people she knew from there. I don't think the people she was last seen with were ever identified, and that would make sense why. Maybe she didn't plan on being gone forever, and maybe she did. Perhaps, knowing she was ill, she was on her way home to set things right when this happened.

Thoughts?

ETA: One more important thing. Above I stated that Faye had a vaccination scar where the UID did not. That was incorrect. BOTH women have vaccination scars on their left arm. Wow! Could this be her after all this time?

I found postings online at Mothers are Vanishing blog that include comments from Faye's daughter. Faye had three children. I also didn't know that TWO killers have both actually claimed to have acted alone in killing Faye. At least one of them is lying, and some think both.

Definitely worth a harder look! Great find!

One difference in the face that I see is the distance between nose and mouth for the UID...looks larger than that for Faye. Not sure how dentures would affect this. I don't think they would change the distance though. This opinion is based also on the reconstructed pictures early in this thread. Did not compare the postmortem photos, but they might help too.

Irish_Eyes said:

Hold the phone, kids, I may have something here.....

I started playing around with my search parameters tonight. I too thought the black lung would be the key to solving this case. However, I backed off that for a minute and focused on the unique gray eyes. I widened my search parameters in terms of age and time missing, because it sounded like this person may have been living a somewhat transient lifestyle and could have been separated from their family for a long time.

It was a pretty short list, and when I hit Faye Aline Self, the more I looked at it, the more promising it became.

https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/1370/0/

At first glance, she isn't exactly a surefire match for our UID. But Self went missing in 1983 at the age of 26. So I'd expect she'd look older/more haggard 16 years later.

But: Her natural hair color is right, and she was known to dye it.
Her height (5'0 to 5'2) is not at all out of range for 5'3.
Her eyes are grey
She is not wearing earrings in any of the photos I can see.
She had at least one child.
Per Doe Network, she had a hysterectomy.
Per the Doe Network, she wore upper dentures.
Fay is from Louisiana (UID was found in MS, very near Louisiana).

Cons: Faye had a scar on her leg and a vaccination scar on her arm, but perhaps those were less noticeable with time.

There is a thread for her here where you can read more about her disappearance:

LA LA - Faye Aline Self, 26, Armistead, 30 March 1983 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Basically, she was at a bar with friends, told them she had to leave and get home to her baby, but was seen last in the parking lot with another woman and two men. She was never seen again.

In the thread her family is quoted as saying she had a wild streak but they did not think she would leave her baby as she had been more responsible since the baby came.

Ironically, a convicted killer confessed to killing Faye as well, but some on the thread are cynical because his confession doesn't tie in with the known circumstances.

Now, what about the black lung? According to Wikipedia, there are only a few states with underground mines, the kind where you might be likely to develop black lung....Ohio, Kentucky, Illinois, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Colorado, New Mexico, and Utah. That's from memory, but I'm pretty sure that's all of them. So this would mean that Faye would not only have had to leave, but would have had to end up in one of those states if this is indeed her.

Looking at her NamUs file, her daughter, I think, has posted several pictures of Faye. Two of the five or six pics posted are Faye in Colorado. I think the tag on one is "Colorado, of course." So I guess my money would be on Colorado.

So, I wonder if Faye made an excuse to her friends that night and ran off to Colorado with some people she knew from there. I don't think the people she was last seen with were ever identified, and that would make sense why. Maybe she didn't plan on being gone forever, and maybe she did. Perhaps, knowing she was ill, she was on her way home to set things right when this happened.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

There are a few more pics of Faye here:

http://identifyla.lsu.edu/profile.php?id=274

cj327, I wondered about that too. But in the end, I think you have to at least take a stab at it, given all the things that do match up rather well.

I called Helen Bouzon's office, but they are closed until 1/3/12. I wondered if that would be the case, as they are at at LSU. So I called Mark Allen with the state police, the other listed contact for the case (in Doe, I believe). He was very nice and he knew right away who Faye was and about her case. I told him I knew that there was thought that this was a case of foul play, but wondered if it was at all possible that Faye had left of her own accord. He said it didn't seem to be the most likely scenario, but that they had never been able to rule that out as a possibility. I then explained my interest in the UID, and that while I knew the time gap was long, I couldn't ignore all the pieces that did fit. He definitely seemed interested and asked me to shoot him an e-mail of the two profiles, which I did. So we'll see what happens.

I wonder how old Faye's youngest child was? She may have had post-natal depression and thought it was for the best if she left everyone in a way that meant they'd have no idea how to track her down. There is a sort of sadness about her face in her pic.

I know we associate rotted out teeth with drug use, but they go with depression too. Irregular sleeping habits, poor motivation, fatigue, they all lead to problems maintaining adequate brushing.

Reality Orlando said:

My dad was from PA and died from Black Lung..coal miner's disease.

Click to expand...

My grandfather, also from PA, also died from black lung, but that was back in the late 1950's. I've gotta wonder, though, that with the age of this woman we might be looking for someon who didn't develop the disease from breathing in coal dust but rather from some other industrial setting. I'd hate to think that mining companies kept not protecting their workers for so long knowing th risks.

That's probably wishful thinking on my part, though. Plus, I know that as late as the early 1960's there were small bootleg mining outfits in NE PA. I know this because there was a well-known mine cave in in my tiny little home town (Sheppton), in which a three man group was trapped underground for a week or so (two were eventually rescued).

ebbie said:

I might have another possibility. I don't recall Nelda Louise Hardwick being mentioned.


https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/625/5
http://doenetwork.org/cases/1002dfla.html


PROS:
Height off by only 1/2".
She had four children which is consistent with UID's childbirth scars.
She lived in Lake Charles, LA which is coincidentally right ON I-10...200 miles away but on the same road UID was found on.
She had full dentures
Her pics show no earrings and no bangs...
Eyes listed as Hazel...(not gray but I didn't get any hits for gray eyes on my search of Namus...)

CONS:
Time gap of 4+ years.....It didn't take 4 years to go 200 miles so its hard to believe a MP could remain undercover in the same area for so long.
DNA submitted
Unless from injury, UID seems to have a fairly square chin/jaw....which Nelda doesn't seem to have.

Click to expand...

I'm still wondering about Nelda as a match...
Anyone have an opinion one way or the other?
Compare photo below with Morgue pics here

I had never seen those pics, ebbie, thanks, that's helpful.

The jaw is odd. When you say "unless from injury" that's what I wondered too. I don't know if it's possible for injuries to make a jaw look that way, but it's a valid question. It's an unusual looking jaw for a woman and also in the top right picture her jaw line looks different to me.

I definitely see why you would bring Nelda into the mix.

ebbie said:

I'm still wondering about Nelda as a match...
Anyone have an opinion one way or the other?
Compare photo below with Morgue pics here

Click to expand...

For me the eyes and the circumstances of disappearance (leaving kids) are the main things working against this match. If the circumstances were different, I could believe the timeline was possible.
Hmm, I have not been very helpful on this thread, seems like all I do is reject other people's ideas!

cj327 said:

For me the eyes and the circumstances of disappearance (leaving kids) are the main things working against this match. If the circumstances were different, I could believe the timeline was possible.
Hmm, I have not been very helpful on this thread, seems like all I do is reject other people's ideas!

Click to expand...

I don't know about anyone else, but I think that's very helpful. That's why we throw things out there, for other people's opinions. Sometimes I've posted something I was pretty excited about only for someone to point out something I hadn't noticed that pretty much rules it out. I'm glad they tell me so I don't waste time chasing something that's not going to go anywhere.

Bumping my own post again.

bessie said:

Since she was near a rest area along an interstate highway, she could've come from anywhere. The Appalachian region seems likely due to the black lung disease. It's not the only possibility, though. As I mentioned previously, there are carbon black manufacturers in south Louisiana in places like Addis, Centreville, and Ville Platte. South Texas has carbon black manufacturing plants, as well. Considering the proximity, I have to look at the possibility that the Doe had lived in one of those locations.

People who work in jobs where they are exposed to coal dust get pneumoconiosis. This includes working in a coal mine or loading coal for storage, working in a graphite mine or mill, and manufacturing carbon electrodes and carbon black.

Click to expand...

http://www.lungusa.org/lung-disease/pneumoconiosis/understanding-pneumoconiosis.html

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=carbo...manufacturers&hnear=Louisiana&t=h&z=8&vpsrc=0

In 1998, there were 21 hospitalizations in Louisiana for CWP, 29 in 1999. (See p.27 of the pdf)
http://new.dhh.louisiana.gov/assets...alth/Documents/Final_Occ_Indicator_Report.pdf

Click to expand...

I had read your post so long ago I'd forgotten it...thanks for bringing it back to the forefront. Yes, that makes much more sense than going all the way to Colorado.

You're quite welcome, Irish, and I wasn't trying to be a smart alec. Promise.

I received the following reply from the contact listed on Namus for this case:

Please refer your questions to the Hancock (MS) County Medical Examiner's Office: 226-467-5101 They are the people who actually "own" this case. My name was put on as a default when cases were being transferred from NCIC to NamUs. So I really don't have the expertise to help you with this. Such cases will be transferred to local authorities as they become registered with NamUs.

Would someone be willing to contact these people by phone? As I am in Australia the time difference can make this quiet difficult :tyou:

pearly said:

I received the following reply from the contact listed on Namus for this case:

Please refer your questions to the Hancock (MS) County Medical Examiner's Office: 226-467-5101 They are the people who actually "own" this case. My name was put on as a default when cases were being transferred from NCIC to NamUs. So I really don't have the expertise to help you with this. Such cases will be transferred to local authorities as they become registered with NamUs.

Would someone be willing to contact these people by phone? As I am in Australia the time difference can make this quiet difficult :tyou:

Click to expand...

I think this is a typo.... 226 area code is Ontario.... 228 is Mississippi.
FYI...I was checking out the County website to look for an email address and its pretty bare bones....But I did see that there is a newly elected county coroner in Hancock as of a few weeks ago. for what its worth....