NO BAIL! Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 -#27

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nowvoyager said:
Sorry if any of this has been mentioned already, there have been so many posts since the bail refusal, a lot to skim thru
Not much came out (though there were some interesting revelations) but really, the onus was on the defence rather than the prosecution, to justify bail, since it would be standard for someone remanded for MURDER to be held in custody. It's a serious charge, and would have been difficult to overturn the risks vs the inconvenience to the accused.
I believe GBC could re-apply for bail, but due to the additional legal costs, unless he had more convincing evidence to dispute the CP arguments, I suspect his lawyers will recommend he wait until the committal procedures start, to assess their prospects.
That may well take weeks or months, the July mention will just be the start, to moniter how things are going.
I expect the CP has, or will have, a lot more information than they have put out so far.
I still wonder about the reported sleep-over vs whether the children were at the house, it makes the whole thing more difficult to imagine.
As regards TM, I wondered whether she may have had some involvement in GBC's financial situation. If so - I mean to the extent that me may have borrowed money from her as well - based on a promise of a future together - then regardless of how things went with his family, he would have had to keep stringing her along - hence the 1st July deadline?
As regards a flight-risk, as it was reported his defence lawyers said he had no valid passport, where would he have gone?
But someone earlier commented, and I remembered, his lawyer said (of his arrest) that he was ... words to the effect... devastated and not expecting it as he had made plans for later in the week.
And the same night of his arrest, the BC seniors were reported driving back to their home and refusing to answer questions, but rushing into the house while some neighbours "carried their bags from their car"?
Thought that odd at the time - did bags mean suitcases or shopping - if bags, where had they been going or helping someone else to go - otherwise they had toughed out weeks at home under media scrutiny.
That made me wonder why the children were taken out of school that day, and why some people suggested the arrest was a little sooner than expected - perhaps it wasn't the police arriving for the children but prompted by someone else trying to take them out of school early?
I know, I know, all a bit of a ramble of imagining.
I still cannot believe a pre-meditated aspect though, what idiot would imagine that you could claim insurance on someone merely reported lost, or if dead, imagine an insurance company would pay out - except in extreme circumstances - before the cause of death was known.
It's a legal fact that a murderer cannot inherit as beneficiary under the will of the person they killed. But most insurance or super funds do ask for nominated beneficaries to avoid the probate issues- still with all the publicity at the time if GBC were the nominated recipient of proceeds, alarm bells would have rung and nothing would have happened with those funds for ages.
Also regarding the phone calls (and that was amazing to me that the time of recharges etc can be logged????) anyway I wondered if perhaps GBC had another phone. I know some folk in busy positions who do keep a 2nd mobile, one just for personal use so that their whole home-time is not dominated by work-calls.
If he had a secret name and e-mail account to pursue his affair, then possibly he had another line of personal communication rather than phone booth calls?
There remain, the issues of the roundabout, the cars, the screams, the barking dogs, all maybe un-related but I am hoping more will come out sooner than later.
So hard for those little girls, what could you possibly tell them :-(
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I recall from MSM reporting that GBC had allegedly made 'plans' for later in the week and was surprised that the Police turned up at his work on Wednesday afternoon. I recall hearing in MSM that the B C parents returned home Wednesday night, ran into their house and left the neighbours to take their 'bags' i.e. luggage into the house. Where were they going? What did the Police know? I recall rumour in MSM about it had been established that enquiries had been made about 'fake' passports and the Supreme Court Judge cited his concern that GBC was a serious flight risk among the reasons why GBC's bail was denied. My opinion only, drawn from MSM reporting and not necessarily facts.
 
Fuskier said:
Also they are Victims of Crime Recipients.So they will be getting some of what they need paid for in the immediate future, plus costs for counseling, etc, plus a payout from VOCAT to each child as societies gift to lessen the trauma they have suffered (legal rationale for this payment).It will be kept in a Supreme Court Trust for them until they reach 18 years of age. Money is not their most pressing problem as they will be looked after financially. It is their major trauma of loss of their parents and their attachment to them. They need a secure, stable, nurturing environment with Child Psychotherapy Services built in to support them long-term through their individual journey through major trauma. Their carers need support to help guide them through some of the challenges ahead. IMO it is critical that they are in the care of loving family where they have a sense of belonging right now.
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I agree. Money may be helpful so they can have as much counselling/psychotherapy as needed, and would give them a choice if , for whatever reason, it's considered private specialists are needed. However as you say they will hopefully be taken care of fairly well anyway with one thing and another.

The stable, loving home environment plus a supportive but non-intrusive community should be the foundation of their new lives, and then they will each need ongoing, counselling. IMO, the approach for each child would need to be different because of their individual personalities and needs, and their different ages. the approach for a 10 year old going on 11 would of course be very different to the approach for a little girl just turned 5. The level of trauma they would have experienced would be enormous.

We don't know what went on in their home in the years before Allisons death either. If there was violence and loud arguing on a regular basis this would have already taken its toll, and the effect on the youngest one could end up being worse because it all would have happened in her most vulnerable years. The older girl may have been lucky enough to have her first 5 years when Allison and Gerard were a lot happier and perhaps had less problems all round.

I also think that when Allison first went missing, and Gerard moved with the girls to his parents house, what a strange environment that might have been for the girls. The defensive behaviour of the family for a start, but also i have often wondered - what would it have been like inside that home? A full house where possibly most of the people knew what had happened, and various police searches and interviews which took place, the search for Allison, then the discovery of her body. Would there have been hushed discussions on a regular basis, what about questions from OW when she was still there, about what really happened, perhaps even an argument or two? Children know when there is something else going on, even if they dont know the details.

So the family troubles, the disappearance of their mother, the BC home environment, the media attention, the unfruitful ground search, the realisation their mother probably wasn't coming hime, the discovery of her body, the funeral, the eventual moving home with GBC and despite the fact he probably cared for them quite well the probable weird environment there, and then suddenly being whisked away from school early by the authorities and taken to a police station, and ultimately being collected by their grandparents and told god knows what about what is happening with their father.

These girls are at high risk of many problems and will need so much help, as will their close family members in how to approach so many different challenges that may arise. And who knows what is to come? There could be more arrests. We don't know what their relationship was with the other BC members, including OW's children, their cousins. I wonder if they have essentially lost them all?
 
Rational said:
Sorry Marly before I go didn't they also raise the insurance issues???
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If you read back a couple of pages I mentioned & posted the photo that was in today's report...both in printed & online editions...the text I copied from the actual photo in print edition which had somewhat of a timeline...
 
Greg said:
This is drifting off into the realms of fantasy, the simple truth is.

A. He was having an affair and TM has laid down the law regarding leaving the wife.
B. He has given TM a commitment to be free of his wife by july 1.
C. He has clearly stated he cannot afford a divorce but will work things out so they could be together.

These are the facts, no bikies, no triads.

Greed and infidelity end of story
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Ummm how is it drifting off into the realms of fantasy? It has been stated that he had many debts and that several of them were gentlemans agreements. I was just interested in whom the agreements might be with and the fact that claiming bankruptcy may not wipe out these debts. And I'm not really sure what those 3 points have to do with who the agreements are/were with and whether they would be cleared by claiming bankruptcy.
 
CaseClosed said:
Thanks!!

If he put the phone on the charger at 8:29 and then removed it 16 minutes later IMO it's because he received a call. From whom? I know police indicated they believe she was murdered at home, but what if he and Allison actually went out together after 8:45 to chat (away from the kids) about their situation and he killed her somewhere else? Could he have called someone (EBC or OW) to come over and mind the kids while he and Allison went out? Just speculation and IMO.
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Could also be that his phone was running out of battery, so he did a quick top-up. I often do this.

:jail:
 
Hawkins said:
Purely MOO based on what we've seen reported, I' say the case for an unlawful killing is strong but the case for an intentional murder not as strong (BBM) . As to the unlawful killing the big question I'd ask on a jury is, if the accused didn't kill her then what other possible version of events is consistent with the admissible evidence? That's going to be hard for the defence to respond to I think if the accused doesn't give evidence. But that's a matter for any jury that may or may not be needed, to decide for themselves.

Again if I was on a jury I want to know what evidence there was of an intention to kill that goes beyond a reasonable doubt, as opposed to just making it look very suspicious. Lots of possible theories in relation to insurance have already been canvassed on here. And lots of people make plans to run away with a mistress without intending to kill their current partner. The alleged undertaking about July 1st wouldn't impress me too muich given that he presumably promised his wife to be faithful.

IMO lots of work to be done by both sides between now and trial and the accused will need to think long and hard about how to proceed. But he's in a much better position to know his situation than we are. And having said all that I have complete fatih in the court, the judge and the lawyers (and also the jurors) to come to the correct decision on the evidence.
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But what about the googling he did in advance of the murder? Wouldnt googling 'taking the fifth' and 'self incrimination' several days prior to the murder be a big factor?
 
Detect said:
Could also be that his phone was running out of battery, so he did a quick top-up. I often do this.

:jail:
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Being on charge also doesn't necessarily indicate being at home - it could have been a car charger or at another fixed location...
 
itsthevibe said:
But what about the googling he did in advance of the murder? Wouldnt googling 'taking the fifth' and 'self incrimination' several days prior to the murder be a big factor?
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Plus the life insurance enquiries...
 
Hello again lovely people...

I wanted to let you know that, as many of you felt such a massive surge of relief with GBC's bail being denied, so did I!

At the same time, I couldn't stop thinking about Allison's three girls. All because of their dad's greed and duplicity, they've lost their beautiful mum. To be honest, and as harsh as it sounds, I'm glad that GBC has been removed from them and that they are far away from the rest of the BCs. I think about the girls so often and their situation really breaks my heart, yet I believe that the love, protection and support that they so need will come from Allison's parents and the rest of her side of the family...

Something alse I've been thinking about today is the BC clan and their support for GBC and, in particular, OW's support for her brother. After sitting in court and hearing the details of GBC's stupidity and his tendency to use the wrong "head" when making his life plans, can OW and the rest of the BCs really publicly support GBC now? I mean, it's not like OW can now say that she has no idea about the false life GBC led. I know there are families that support their own criminally-inclined members, but I can say with certainty that I would be absolutely disgusted if I saw OW (or other BCs) standing by and defending this poor excuse for a human being in future. I will be doubly disgusted if it comes to light that OW requests further financial assistance for her brother!

On another note, I do not think it's over yet. I still feel that NBC and EBC have many questions to answer and I still suspect NBC as being a major participant in Allison's demise.

By the way, I've been really enjoying your caterpiller and butterfly banter! Caterpiller my *advertiser censored***! :laugh:

As always, my heart goes out to Allison and her girls... XX
 
aussie_mum said:
Ummm how is it drifting off into the realms of fantasy? It has been stated that he had many debts and that several of them were gentlemans agreements. I was just interested in whom the agreements might be with and the fact that claiming bankruptcy may not wipe out these debts. And I'm not really sure what those 3 points have to do with who the agreements are/were with and whether they would be cleared by claiming bankruptcy.
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Apologies I was referring to your last statement regarding bikies and whether it wasn't too far from the truth that is entering fantasyland....... your previous remarks about bankruptcy not clearing a loan from a friend is entirely legitimate.
 
LillyPilly said:
Hello again lovely people...

I wanted to let you know that, as many of you felt such a massive surge of relief with GBC's bail being denied, so did I!

At the same time, I couldn't stop thinking about Allison's three girls. All because of their dad's greed and duplicity, they've lost their beautiful mum. To be honest, and as harsh as it sounds, I'm glad that GBC has been removed from them and that they are far away from the rest of the BCs. I think about the girls so often and their situation really breaks my heart, yet I believe that the love, protection and support that they so need will come from Allison's parents and the rest of her side of the family...

Something alse I've been thinking about today is the BC clan and their support for GBC and, in particular, OW's support for her brother. After sitting in court and hearing the details of GBC's stupidity and his tendency to use the wrong "head" when making his life plans, can OW and the rest of the BCs really publicly support GBC now? I mean, it's not like OW can now say that she has no idea about the false life GBC led. I know there are families that support their own criminally-inclined members, but I can say with certainty that I would be absolutely disgusted if I saw OW (or other BCs) standing by and defending this poor excuse for a human being in future. I will be doubly disgusted if it comes to light that OW requests further financial assistance for her brother!

On another note, I do not think it's over yet. I still feel that NBC and EBC have many questions to answer and I still suspect NBC as being a major participant in Allison's demise.

By the way, I've been really enjoying your caterpiller and butterfly banter! Caterpiller my *advertiser censored***! :laugh:

As always, my heart goes out to Allison and her girls... XX
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And I'll be disappointedi they hypocritically attend the cricket match tomorrow !!

:jail:
 
aussie_mum said:
Ummm how is it drifting off into the realms of fantasy? It has been stated that he had many debts and that several of them were gentlemans agreements. I was just interested in whom the agreements might be with and the fact that claiming bankruptcy may not wipe out these debts. And I'm not really sure what those 3 points have to do with who the agreements are/were with and whether they would be cleared by claiming bankruptcy.
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Of more interest to me is whose property is he guarantor for $335k.....I'm guessing it's his parents......but of course this is jmo
 
So, looking at the timeline posted recently, what time do you all think this murder took place? I think a 10 y.o. child is still awake at 8:45 pm and possibly not sound asleep until 9:30-10:00 pm. Allow 30 minutes of discussion/argument after that. If he contacted NBC at 12:20, and if she was killed at home, IMO it could have been after 10:30 pm (Footy Show had been on and GBC remembers it) but before 12:00 midnight. He then needed some time to think before making a call to NBC. All my speculation and IMO.
 
Curiousasacat said:
I think the cricket match is too soon now.
It is so close to the house(literally) and people are still in "shock".
I don't think it would be good for the girls to be there?
:moo:
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I don't think they will be there, but this is just my feeling on the matter. I am assumng the girls are staying with the Dickies, who live on the Gold Coast. Not sure what will be happening in the near future with residence, school etc, but I've been past the house in Brookfield at night a couple of times, and it has been in darkness. It's a rented property anyway, so it will be interesting to see what happens to it.

Very sad situation, from all accounts the girls loved their school but I can't see how they can continue going there, or return to live in that area. It is a 50/50 situation to my mind, on the one hand good for them because they are supported at school, it's familiar, they have their friends etc, and it's one thing that hasn't changed and been ruined or taken away from them (if they were somehow able to still go there). On the other hand, maybe there are too many bad memories associated with the district now, and they are better to be in a new environment with no physical reminders of all that has occurred. How could they stay living in the house where the murder took place?

Although it's an initial wrench maybe starting afresh at a local school, in the new location with their grandparents, lots of visits from Allisons sister and brother, and maybe their favourite friends from Brookfield now and then would be best. I guess these are some of the many decisions that the various child support services and professionals the Dickies may have access to can help them with.

I am going to the cricket day, and I'll be wearing a sunflower, contriuting to funds raised, and sending up prayers for Allison and girls! Hope it's a beautiful sunny day and they raise more than $20,000 :)
 
UnfoldingTruth said:
That part is unbelievable isnt it..(not that the rest is easy to swallow). before she was identified?
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Other than being a highly inappropriate and insensitive behaviour in the circumstances, I suspect the DPP will argue that GBC didn't have to wait for the identification to make the claim because he already knew it was her body. How? Because he placed it there. IMO
 
About chargers. At home or in a car, iPhones are charged via USB ports, so device identification numbers used for connection are recorded. It is pretty much straight forward to identify where the phone has been charged.
 
Don't have time to read back ATM. Went to bridge today and tidied some flowers. The cross looked so fresh and it was really well anchored. I wore my best sensible shoes and went right down. I couldn't find the geocache. I spent about 20 minutes in the spot where she was found.
 
I have said this before. Carbon monoxide poisoning. He gassed her in the car - IMO.
grannie said:
I doubt Allison could go too far away from the girls that night. They must have been asleep but not quite, at 8.45pm. She could have agreed to get outside and sit in a car, if GBC wanted to discuss their situation. Or he could have lured her out of the house in to the car, so that he could strangle her and leave the body there for a while. Just speculating.
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Solaris said:
Other than being a highly inappropriate and insensitive behaviour in the circumstances, I suspect the DPP will argue that GBC didn't have to wait for the identification to make the claim because he already knew it was her body. How? Because he placed it there. IMO
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That's right. My guess is that the body was placed there to look like a suicide (bridge jump, comments about depression in the media to support the notion). For (quick payout, which is what he needed) insurance purposes, the body would need to be found...
 
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