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George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin General Discussion threads All closed discussion threads about George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin.Not open for posting- but there is plenty of reading.


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Old 04-18-2012, 01:32 PM
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17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #27

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Old 04-18-2012, 01:41 PM
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Protesters want fire captain punished...

MIAMI (WSVN) -- Demonstrators want a South Florida fire captain punished after he ranted about the Trayvon Martin case on his Facebook page.
Protesters gathered at the Stephen P. Clark Center in Downtown Miami, Wednesday afternoon, holding up signs that read: "I am a parent not pathetic."


Read more: http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/lo...#ixzz1sPmsyv7D
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Old 04-18-2012, 01:48 PM
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Protesters want fire captain punished...

MIAMI (WSVN) -- Demonstrators want a South Florida fire captain punished after he ranted about the Trayvon Martin case on his Facebook page.
Protesters gathered at the Stephen P. Clark Center in Downtown Miami, Wednesday afternoon, holding up signs that read: "I am a parent not pathetic."


Read more: http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/lo...#ixzz1sPmsyv7D
Hasn't FB been around long enough where people know not to do any sort of ranting on FB, especially if you have an upper position of say, a fire captain?
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Old 04-18-2012, 01:53 PM
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Hasn't FB been around long enough where people know not to do any sort of ranting on FB, especially if you have an upper position of say, a fire captain?
I guess not. I don't have a "real" one myself, but have read a bunch from the cases here I have followed. Unbelievable what people put out there.
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Old 04-18-2012, 01:58 PM
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Hasn't FB been around long enough where people know not to do any sort of ranting on FB, especially if you have an upper position of say, a fire captain?
Apparently not. I recently fired an employee for posting about a political argument she got into with a patron in my place of business (which never should have happened to begin with). She was ranting about what a jerk this customer was on FB. Nope! Not happening in my place of business!

MOO

Last edited by suzihawk; 04-18-2012 at 03:17 PM. Reason: to fix horrible sentence structure. LOL
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Old 04-18-2012, 01:48 PM
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Brought over from other thread, got caught in the door.
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I'm so sorry.
-------------------------------------------------
Thanks Suzihawk! I never post personal information but couldn't let this one go, based on personal experience.

I knew from the moment I saw the sheriff video, GZ was not a victim of a beating. He wouldn't have been able to walk in the manner in which he did, both physically and emotionally. He was as calm as a cucumber. One that is beaten does not act like he did on that evening. Furthermore, he would struggle to walk due to injuries all over his body, he would feel like a truck just ran him over, especially over the next few days. He would have bruises all over his body, in the areas I mentioned, as well as others. He would have bruises on bruises. He certainly wouldn't be able to move his belongings. If he had any type of cut on the head or a nose injury, there would be blood all over, and it would not have stopped bleeding in a 1/2 hour. No way.

JMO and thank you again.
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Old 04-18-2012, 01:49 PM
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Brought over from other thread, got caught in the door.
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I'm so sorry.
-------------------------------------------------
Thanks Suzihawk! I never post personal information but couldn't let this one go, based on personal experience.

I knew from the moment I saw the sheriff video, GZ was not a victim of a beating. He wouldn't have been able to walk in the manner in which he did, both physically and emotionally. He was as calm as a cucumber. One that is beaten does not act like he did on that evening. Furthermore, he would struggle to walk due to injuries all over his body, he would feel like a truck just ran him over, especially over the next few days. He would have bruises all over his body, in the areas I mentioned, as well as others. He would have bruises on bruises. He certainly wouldn't be able to move his belongings. If he had any type of cut on the head or a nose injury, there would be blood all over, and it would not have stopped bleeding in a 1/2 hour. No way.

JMO and thank you again.
I think the point of the SYG law (which GZ will be trying to claim) is you don't have to actually get hurt to claim self defense, just be in fear of getting hurt.
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:03 PM
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I think the point of the SYG law (which GZ will be trying to claim) is you don't have to actually get hurt to claim self defense, just be in fear of getting hurt.
I understand that, but his family is claiming his head was beaten on the concrete , and some people are claiming GZ was straddled and beaten. I wasn't talking about the SYG law. Since you mentioned it though, if he did not have injuries, I doubt this will go his way. JMO
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:04 PM
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I think the point of the SYG law (which GZ will be trying to claim) is you don't have to actually get hurt to claim self defense, just be in fear of getting hurt.
But, if you have already claimed to have been beaten and suffered severe injuries, but have been discredited, do you then get to claim that you were oops, uninjured but in mortal fear?
I feel that is what is happening here, the statute may state that you only have to be in fear for your life, but if you choose to go whole hog and claim a terrible beating was administered, then, when that beating doesn't seem to be supported by the evidence available, I am not going to find your claims of mortal fear credible either. Moo

With every new piece of evidence that has cast doubt about Zimmerman's terrible injuries, his family has come forward with a slightly tweaked version of the story to account (as best they can) for it. I don't believe any of it now. Moo
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:36 PM
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But, if you have already claimed to have been beaten and suffered severe injuries, but have been discredited, do you then get to claim that you were oops, uninjured but in mortal fear?
I feel that is what is happening here, the statute may state that you only have to be in fear for your life, but if you choose to go whole hog and claim a terrible beating was administered, then, when that beating doesn't seem to be supported by the evidence available, I am not going to find your claims of mortal fear credible either. Moo

With every new piece of evidence that has cast doubt about Zimmerman's terrible injuries, his family has come forward with a slightly tweaked version of the story to account (as best they can) for it. I don't believe any of it now. Moo
Has GZ himself claimed he suffered these 'life threatening' injuries?
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:42 PM
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Has GZ himself claimed he suffered these 'life threatening' injuries?
we haven't heard anything from him have we? I am not going by what his family says though, I'd like to see some reports please!!!
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:13 PM
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I think the point of the SYG law (which GZ will be trying to claim) is you don't have to actually get hurt to claim self defense, just be in fear of getting hurt.
As I understand it, you are correct. However, the problem for his defense is possibly going to center around documented evidence as to the body's location. Remember, only 18 seconds lapsed during the 911 call between GZ getting out of his vehicle and the 911 dispatcher's admonition not to follow TM. That doesn't allow for much more than 100 feet of travel on GZ's part.

Any altercation that happened beyound that point would, to me, seem to be as a result of "Pursuing Your Ground" as opposed to "Standing Your Ground".

I'm aware of several different locations having been given for the body, but if the SPD report and the SFD's dispatch recordings are correct, TM's body was 200 feet +/- from where GZ got out of his truck.

IMO, if that's the case, he's got a huge problem in proving a SYG defense against an unarmed 17 year old kid who was breaking no laws.
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Old 04-18-2012, 03:34 PM
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As I understand it, you are correct. However, the problem for his defense is possibly going to center around documented evidence as to the body's location. Remember, only 18 seconds lapsed during the 911 call between GZ getting out of his vehicle and the 911 dispatcher's admonition not to follow TM. That doesn't allow for much more than 100 feet of travel on GZ's part.

Any altercation that happened beyound that point would, to me, seem to be as a result of "Pursuing Your Ground" as opposed to "Standing Your Ground".

I'm aware of several different locations having been given for the body, but if the SPD report and the SFD's dispatch recordings are correct, TM's body was 200 feet +/- from where GZ got out of his truck.

IMO, if that's the case, he's got a huge problem in proving a SYG defense against an unarmed 17 year old kid who was breaking no laws.
Is the SPD report the same report that said GZ was wearing a 'red' jacket? (I know there were conversations on the accuracy of that).

I guess what I'm asking is, how much accuracy are we putting in the SPD report?
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Old 04-18-2012, 04:40 PM
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Is the SPD report the same report that said GZ was wearing a 'red' jacket? (I know there were conversations on the accuracy of that).

I guess what I'm asking is, how much accuracy are we putting in the SPD report?
I really don't know. Until the SPD report came out and was largely confirmed by SFD Fire and Rescue, I was going on what Tracy Martin said. With this info, it seems to me to be the safest bet.

I just know it would be a pretty sorry state of affairs if the police department AND the fire department were both telling us wrong.
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:16 PM
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I think the point of the SYG law (which GZ will be trying to claim) is you don't have to actually get hurt to claim self defense, just be in fear of getting hurt.
If I were on GZ's jury, I would be incredibly skeptical of this SYG claim, given GZ's apparent lack of serious injuries. I don't think someone can reasonably fear great bodily harm or death from an unarmed teenager unless it could be proven that that teen was beating him mercilessly (head on concrete seems about the right breaking point to reach for the gun - though I don't believe for one minute that TM was beating GZ's head on the concrete). Anything less severe than that wouldn't fly with me for SYG.

That said, I believe GZ initiated the confrontation, so I think SYG is a moot point.

JMO.
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Old 04-18-2012, 03:33 PM
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I think the point of the SYG law (which GZ will be trying to claim) is you don't have to actually get hurt to claim self defense, just be in fear of getting hurt.
That is true, but the judge has to believe your story. If he doesn't believe some of it he can/may disregard all of it. That is what I hope happens when the judge hears his SYG claims.
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Old 04-18-2012, 03:36 PM
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That is true, but the judge has to believe your story. If he doesn't believe some of it he can/may disregard all of it. That is what I hope happens when the judge hears his SYG claims.
True and that's going to be the issue. I mentioned in the previous thread that without someone else or some crucial piece of evidence (TM prints on the gun handle?) that points to TM having an upper hand in the struggle, it's only going to be GZ's word and there is no way he's going to be able to get by with just that.
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Old 04-18-2012, 04:00 PM
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I think the point of the SYG law (which GZ will be trying to claim) is you don't have to actually get hurt to claim self defense, just be in fear of getting hurt.
Actually, I think you really DO have to get hurt to claim self defense, at least when you are holding a gun and the other person is unarmed.
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Old 04-18-2012, 05:33 PM
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Actually, I think you really DO have to get hurt to claim self defense, at least when you are holding a gun and the other person is unarmed.
Do you mean as a matter of law or just in practical terms?

Because in the self-defense case where I was a juror, the defendant merely testified that he heard the victim make a threat "to put a cap in somebody's ass" and therefore reasonably believed the victim was armed with a gun.

This was enough to get the affirmative defense instruction. (But not enough to sway the jury: it didn't seem credible that the defendant took out his knife and ran some distance toward the imaginary gun.)
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Old 04-18-2012, 05:43 PM
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Do you mean as a matter of law or just in practical terms?

Because in the self-defense case where I was a juror, the defendant merely testified that he heard the victim make a threat "to put a cap in somebody's ass" and therefore reasonably believed the victim was armed with a gun.

This was enough to get the affirmative defense instruction. (But not enough to sway the jury: it didn't seem credible that the defendant took out his knife and ran some distance toward the imaginary gun.)
Yeah, I was being a tiny bit facetious. Of course the "thought he had a gun" scenario would change things. But in none of the accounts about this incident do we find Zimmerman believing Trayvon was going to use a weapon on him at the time he shot him. Yes, he mentioned the "waistband" thing at the beginning but his reasoning for shooting Trayvon was because he was being assaulted, not because someone threatened to put a cap in him.

Thus, if he had no reason to believe Trayvon was going to use a weapon, he would really need to show some evidence of real injuries to have shot at self defense since he was the only one with the weapon.

Otherwise, what do we have? A scenario where an armed man is standing there, not being injured, but has "reasonable" fear of imminent danger of bodily harm or death? That's not gonna' fly. He could not get an affirmative defense instruction, IMO, without injuries or a reasonable belief that Trayvon was armed and was going to use that weapon on him.
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Old 04-18-2012, 06:10 PM
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Actually, I think you really DO have to get hurt to claim self defense, at least when you are holding a gun and the other person is unarmed.
What in the statute requires injury to claim self defense per SYG?
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:22 PM
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Brought over from other thread, got caught in the door.
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I'm so sorry.
-------------------------------------------------
Thanks Suzihawk! I never post personal information but couldn't let this one go, based on personal experience.

I knew from the moment I saw the sheriff video, GZ was not a victim of a beating. He wouldn't have been able to walk in the manner in which he did, both physically and emotionally. He was as calm as a cucumber. One that is beaten does not act like he did on that evening. Furthermore, he would struggle to walk due to injuries all over his body, he would feel like a truck just ran him over, especially over the next few days. He would have bruises all over his body, in the areas I mentioned, as well as others. He would have bruises on bruises. He certainly wouldn't be able to move his belongings. If he had any type of cut on the head or a nose injury, there would be blood all over, and it would not have stopped bleeding in a 1/2 hour. No way.

JMO and thank you again.
First my condolence for your injuries and attack. I hope you are recovered and well.

I went through a similar attack to the one GZ describes and I did not bleed all over the place. My attacker focused on my head and face, surprising me from behind, throwing a punch as I turned, sending me to my knees and repeatedly punching me in the face and once I was laid out, slamming the back of my head into the floor again and again. I did not bleed profusely. I do not recall injuries or bruising to anywhere other than my head and face. The painful lumps on my scalp were not visible as I had long hair. The bruising and swelling on my face was severe, the bruising lasted for what seemed like forever and my left eye socket was sensitive for years. I was able to walk and, although I was an emotional wreck, I became very quiet and withdrawn which may have been perceived as "calm as a cucumber" but I was nothing near calm on the inside.

IMO, I would like to know what GZ looked like the morning after as I believe that's when the bruising would really start to show. We've heard some statements from neighbors that he was wearing bandages and his nose appeared swollen, but I wonder how good a look they got of him. IOW, I don't feel that the statements, as they stand, tell us a whole lot.

I've found GZ's account to be believable and I think his demeanor can be attributed to shock. However, I doubt he was beaten as badly as you or I. Still, I understand the overwhelming fear that your skull won't be able to withstand another blow which IMO makes a "reasonable" self defense claim. I put the word reasonable in scare quotes because I don't personally find it reasonable but I can understand why other people, and the law, would.

ETA: I feel you on the personal experience. Whether or not GZ is to be believed, this case has really brought back some bad memories that I've had to revisit and rethink. And it's added a level of emotional connection I can't shake. Totally OT but I just wanted to say I'm with you on that!

JMO, OMO, and
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:31 PM
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First my condolence for your injuries and attack. I hope you are recovered and well.

I went through a similar attack to the one GZ describes and I did not bleed all over the place. My attacker focused on my head and face, surprising me from behind, throwing a punch as I turned, sending me to my knees and repeatedly punching me in the face and once I was laid out, slamming the back of my head into the floor again and again. I did not bleed profusely. I do not recall injuries or bruising to anywhere other than my head and face. The painful lumps on my scalp were not visible as I had long hair. The bruising and swelling on my face was severe, the bruising lasted for what seemed like forever and my left eye socket was sensitive for years. I was able to walk and, although I was an emotional wreck, I became very quiet and withdrawn which may have been perceived as "calm as a cucumber" but I was nothing near calm on the inside.

IMO, I would like to know what GZ looked like the morning after as I believe that's when the bruising would really start to show. We've heard some statements from neighbors that he was wearing bandages and his nose appeared swollen, but I wonder how good a look they got of him. IOW, I don't feel that the statements, as they stand, tell us a whole lot.

I've found GZ's account to be believable and I think his demeanor can be attributed to shock. However, I doubt he was beaten as badly as you or I. Still, I understand the overwhelming fear that your skull won't be able to withstand another blow which IMO makes a "reasonable" self defense claim. I put the word reasonable in scare quotes because I don't personally find it reasonable but I can understand why other people, and the law, would.

ETA: I feel you on the personal experience. Whether or not GZ is to be believed, this case has really brought back some bad memories that I've had to revisit and rethink. And it's added a level of emotional connection I can't shake. Totally OT but I just wanted to say I'm with you on that!

JMO, OMO, and
Thats an aweful thing that happened to you. How were you able to get away?
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:40 PM
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Thats an aweful thing that happened to you. How were you able to get away?
One person, out of a crowd of people, finally pulled my attacker off of me. They had to shout at me to run because I was in such a state of shock. I am a petite woman, was probably a little over 100 lbs at the time, not physically strong, but I was a darn good runner.
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:50 PM
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First my condolence for your injuries and attack. I hope you are recovered and well.

I went through a similar attack to the one GZ describes and I did not bleed all over the place. My attacker focused on my head and face, surprising me from behind, throwing a punch as I turned, sending me to my knees and repeatedly punching me in the face and once I was laid out, slamming the back of my head into the floor again and again. I did not bleed profusely. I do not recall injuries or bruising to anywhere other than my head and face. The painful lumps on my scalp were not visible as I had long hair. The bruising and swelling on my face was severe, the bruising lasted for what seemed like forever and my left eye socket was sensitive for years. I was able to walk and, although I was an emotional wreck, I became very quiet and withdrawn which may have been perceived as "calm as a cucumber" but I was nothing near calm on the inside.

IMO, I would like to know what GZ looked like the morning after as I believe that's when the bruising would really start to show. We've heard some statements from neighbors that he was wearing bandages and his nose appeared swollen, but I wonder how good a look they got of him. IOW, I don't feel that the statements, as they stand, tell us a whole lot.

I've found GZ's account to be believable and I think his demeanor can be attributed to shock. However, I doubt he was beaten as badly as you or I. Still, I understand the overwhelming fear that your skull won't be able to withstand another blow which IMO makes a "reasonable" self defense claim. I put the word reasonable in scare quotes because I don't personally find it reasonable but I can understand why other people, and the law, would.

ETA: I feel you on the personal experience. Whether or not GZ is to be believed, this case has really brought back some bad memories that I've had to revisit and rethink. And it's added a level of emotional connection I can't shake. Totally OT but I just wanted to say I'm with you on that!

JMO, OMO, and
Thank you very much. I am so sorry this happened to you. You never shake that feeling, unfortunately. My head was repeatedly beat on the ground as someone was straddled on top of me. I commented because some posting thought the same thing happened to GZ and he had to fight for his life. In my case, I had bruises all over my back, elbows and buttocks from trying to get away and get him off of me. Furthermore, my head was beaten into the ground and there were lumps on lumps, clearly seen if you saw my scalp (like GZ). I said, IF there was a head cut, the bleeding would not stop in a 1/2 hour. Head wounds are very tough to get them to stop bleeding. Nose bleeds too. I firmly believe if he had a cut or nose bleed, he would have blood all over his shirt.

During my attack, I never thought about the next blow, didn't have time to "think", it was pure fight for my life to get away. No thinking. My opinions about the tape are that he was not a mess, in fact not a wrinkle in his clothes, no blood, no obvious bruising, nothing..I find it hard to believe he was beaten. I believe he was the aggressor and Trayvon was his victim. I was calm after the attack, but my clothes were a mess, you could tell by how I looked, something horrible had happened, both physically and emotionally.

Again, I am only speaking of this because someone claimed GZ was straddled and beaten, I do not believe it based on my own experience.

I hope you continue to heal!

All is JMO.
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