PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #5

[christine2448]

Please continue here.

[SeekingJana]

Thanks, Christine.

JJ, I didn't realize he was with his first wife when there was an incident about him just going to a ballgame. Like I said, someone had him under their thumb at that point, at least.

I have never seen a photo of his ex wife to know what she looks like, but I have seen photos of Patti. For her age, an attractive lady, from what I could tell. She seemed petite, dark haired, that's about all I remember.

Regarding the car, the Mini is a stand out model of car in most of the USA. I notice Minis in Dallas. That's what I meant more than " expensive and flashy". It's really neither. A former boyfriend of mine bought a red Corvette with a personalized license plate that said Bbbbad ( from the song Bad To The Bone)- he was a cop having a mid-life crisis. That's an example of flash.
The Mini Cooper is merely standout because of its size and shape among other cars and because there were so few of them on the road at that time, especially.

Maria

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally Posted by SeekingJana

Thanks, Christine.

JJ, I didn't realize he was with his first wife when there was an incident about him just going to a ballgame. Like I said, someone had him under their thumb at that point, at least.

It was his second wife, I'll abbreviate her as EG, because she hasn't been identified in most of the press stories. His first wife was Barbara Gray, who lives in State College and is Lara's mother.

I have never seen a photo of his ex wife to know what she looks like, but I have seen photos of Patti. For her age, an attractive lady, from what I could tell. She seemed petite, dark haired, that's about all I remember.

I have not either, but I've heard some descriptions.

Ms. Fornicola is by no means ugly, but she isn't a tall blond supermodel type either. She's maybe 5'6" with short black hair. She's not fat, but not skinny, either. And, while she does not look old, she didn't look like she was in early 20's either. I wouldn't describe her as a trophy wife/girlfriend type. Attractive, but not stunning. When I finally found her photo, I must admit to being surprised.

That's what I meant more than " expensive and flashy". It's really neither.

I know what you mean, but it's hard to characterize. It wasn't an economy car, but it was not a Corvette either. If you didn't know him, and I didn't, you'd kind of ask me what kind of a car I'd expect a 59 year old Republican DA would drive, a Mini Cooper would not come to mind.

Those people who actually know him didn't find anything odd in him buying the Mini and didn't think it was a midlife crisis.

And my thanks to Christine as well.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl
This is incredibly shocking! Unfortunately, the link isn't working for me to be able to read it!

I don't find it too shocking, just interesting...

Mr. Gricar expressed an interest in making the drive unreadable a long time before he was planning to retire; the accounts make it look like a about a year prior to retirement. What is interesting is that he expressed this interest and the drive ended up unreadable and that he expressed this interest well before he disappeared.

This is exactly what I meant when I said that this is incredibly shocking to me. Wanting to know how to erase a hard drive is not mysterious. In conjunction with all of the other things we now know, it becomes very mysterious, IMO.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Originally Posted by seekingjana

i also believe that many people live lives of quiet desperation because they lack the courage to walk away from a life that is lacking and pursue their passions, whatever and whoever those passions may be.

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!

[Airplane]

The most commonly accepted reasons for Ray Gricar's disapparence are:

1) He was abducted and murdered.
2) He left of his own accord to start a new life.
3) He committed suicide.

I think all of those are possible as I just do not know what happened to him.

However, there is also the remote possibility that he simply went for a walk in the woods and keeled over with a stroke, heart attack, or something of the like. It does happen to even otherwise healthy people. After all, FloJo died in her sleep and she was not too many years removed from being an Olympic champion. I know it's highly unlikely, but I think it is a possibility.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally Posted by Airplane

The most commonly accepted reasons for Ray Gricar's disapparence are:

1) He was abducted and murdered.
2) He left of his own accord to start a new life.
3) He committed suicide.

I think all of those are possible as I just do not know what happened to him.

However, there is also the remote possibility that he simply went for a walk in the woods and keeled over with a stroke, heart attack, or something of the like. It does happen to even otherwise healthy people. After all, FloJo died in her sleep and she was not too many years removed from being an Olympic champion. I know it's highly unlikely, but I think it is a possibility.

If it was the woods (and there are some wooded areas in a park around where the Mini was found) the body would been found long ago.

It is possible that he had a health problem or accident and fell into the river, but why hasn't the body been found.

[Airplane]

Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila

If it was the woods (and there are some wooded areas in a park around where the Mini was found) the body would been found long ago.

It is possible that he had a health problem or accident and fell into the river, but why hasn't the body been found.

The body might not have been found. Look at how long it took them to find Chandra Levy and she was in a park. It would have been possible for him to walk a couple of miles or more in any direction, cross the road, or any number of things that could keep him well hidden for a very long time. I realize that's it's highly unlikely, but I think it is a possibility.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally Posted by Airplane

The body might not have been found. Look at how long it took them to find Chandra Levy and she was in a park. It would have been possible for him to walk a couple of miles or more in any direction, cross the road, or any number of things that could keep him well hidden for a very long time. I realize that's it's highly unlikely, but I think it is a possibility.

They did use both blood hounds and a cadaver dog, with little luck. The dogs discovered Mr. Gricar's scent in the parking lot, but that's about it.

[Airplane]

Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila

They did use both blood hounds and a cadaver dog, with little luck. The dogs discovered Mr. Gricar's scent in the parking lot, but that's about it.

I think it's about as likely that he went for a walk and keeled over as it is that he committed suicide. Possible, yes. Probable, no. The suicide theory is about as probable as the went for walk and keeled over theory. They're both remotely possible, but simply not very likely.

[Lili]

[quote=J. J. in Phila;2820951]If it was the woods (and there are some wooded areas in a park around where the Mini was found) the body would been found long ago.

It is possible that he had a health problem or accident and fell into the river, but why hasn't the body been found.[/quote]


IMO If he fell into the river on the day he disappeared he may never be found because, IIRC, the river was running high and rapid due to the recent heavy rains. Although a river search was done, a body could have been snagged or hung up on underwater obstacles. We had a local incident last spring when a fisherman disappeared. Because of the rains the creek was running a little high and fast. His body was passed several times by searchers until someone just happened to catch a glance between rocks. He was almost 7 miles from where he went in. But, unfortunately, I don't think that is what happened.

[J. J. in Phila]

[quote=Lili;2837070]

Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila

If it was the woods (and there are some wooded areas in a park around where the Mini was found) the body would been found long ago.

It is possible that he had a health problem or accident and fell into the river, but why hasn't the body been found.[/quote]


IMO If he fell into the river on the day he disappeared he may never be found because, IIRC, the river was running high and rapid due to the recent heavy rains.

There are some problems with that.

1. Most bodies are recovered from the Susquehanna. While there had been flooding in late March and early April, the waters were receding by mid April. It was still higher, but receding.

2. There are multiple dams on the Susquehanna, down river, where a body might be spotted.

3. The river runs through populated areas and is heavily used for recreation. Someone might have discovered the remains (case in point, the laptop was discovered though it wasn't necessarily tossed in on the weekend of 4/15/05).

4. The searching was phenomenal. The initial search was from the air, followed up by boats with a cadaver dog.

Is it possibly that Mr. Gricar fell, jumped (or walked) into the river, or that his murdered body was dumped into the river? Yes. Is it likely, probably not.

[SeekingJana]

I used to live on the banks of a major, fast moving, extremely deep US river. Bodies were ALWAYS found.

I have also lived on the Gulf of Mexico. Bodies were not always found there, but for reasons related to tides, predatory animals such as sharks and so forth.

I have read that the Sus. River was VERY shallow where Ray's laptop and hard drive was found, close to where his car was parked near the bridge over the river. I read on the CTV forum, when it was up and running well, that if he jumped, he probably wouldn't die, it was like jumping into a swimming pool. Maybe the description wasn't accurate, I don't know.

With the Benjaman Kyle case, I have been more aware of the reasons people leave their lives or disappear.
There are a couple of " What ifs" I want to throw out for discussion in this case, but I know that most people, like me, do have a lot of respect for Mr. Gricar, and for what they know about his life as stated in the media.

If it's OK, I will start a generalized thread about " Why and how do people disappear" in the JR. I don't want to disrespect Mr. Gricar and the question and hypotheses related to the question are not specific to his case, since we have a missing person only here.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila

1. Most bodies are recovered from the Susquehanna. While there had been flooding in late March and early April, the waters were receding by mid April. It was still higher, but receding.

I have some more information on the level of the Susquehanna, sent to me by an area resident that was strolling along. It was based on personal observations (his) and gauge data.

The water was about 16 inches lower when the divers first searched it that it was on 4/15/05. It was very murky. This would have been the week of 4/17/05.

When the laptop was found, the water had dropped another 23 inches. This was July 30, 2005.

The water dropped another 3 inches when the hard drive was found. This was early October 2005.

In late September 2005, IIRC, there were heavy rains and the river went up a bit, but no flooding.

[reb]

why is this thread in the located section if he has not been located?

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Originally Posted by reb

why is this thread in the located section if he has not been located?

The forum contains both missing & located threads, (title = Missing/Located Forum Discussion). I've never really understood why missing & located are combined in this way.

[J. J. in Phila]

On the prior thread, I said:

I'm guessing that the second witness contacted the PSP or BPD. I'm told that he was not from the Wilkes-Barre area (and not from Centre County) and that he would be the type to have MEGA-credibility. I've heard, second hand of the account, and it would fit with someone trying to somewhat disguise his identity. They talked for about 5 minutes, so it wasn't just walking past the guy on a street.

Now, we have two witnesses that put Mr. Gricar in the same place, a bar in Wilkes-Barre, at the same time, the evening of 4/18/05. Both are sure and both got more than a fleeting glimpse of him. Both may have identified his voice. While the bartender is probably credible, the second witness has major credibility, on a number of levels. This is what would move my numbers.

This report was it.

[Bobbisangel]

It does sound like he just walked away from his old life. I don't think he would commit suicide because of his brother and the pain that he saw his nephews go through much less what it did to Ray. I think he just decided to start a new life and left everything behind including his car. Someone must have picked him up in the parking lot and that is why the dogs couldn't find his scent outside of the parking lot. I would also imagine that he had been socking money away for awhile maybe under someone elses name in some other city.

If he did just walk away I would bet that he has contacted his daughter sometime since and has sworn her to secrecy. He must have had his reasons for leaving but I don't think he would just disappear and leave his daughter never knowing where he is. That would be as bad as his brother committing suicide and his nephews having to cope with it.

This might be a case like Nick F. and we may never know what really happened to Ray.

[J. J. in Phila]

In September of 2005, Mr. Gricar's daughter passed a polygraph.

I still need to be convinced that this walkaway, though the more that comes out, the more likely it becomes.

Basically, the question is, if Mr. Gricar left Lewisburg, how did he get out? The Wilkes-Barre location is just over 70 miles from where the car was found. He didn't grow wings and fly there.

[J. J. in Phila]

Another tragedy associated with the Gricar case. The daughter of Robert Buehner, the Montour County District Attorney who called for the attorney general's office to take over the case, died Monday evening.

http://www.dailyitem.com/0700_the_da...yword=topstory

Very sad.

[txsleuth]

A new forum for discussion on the Ray Gricar case

http://tinyurl.com/cwq2vq

[J. J. in Phila]

A complaint had been filed against him on the same day that he disappeared.

http://www.standard-journal.com/arti...d278014735.txt

An editorial about it:

http://www.dailyitem.com/0110_editor...148231534.html

[J. J. in Phila]

Pastor Rosa has now been charged criminally, which provides a very strong motive for him not being there.

http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/a...ntassault.html

[J. J. in Phila]

There is an excellent blog on the Sporadic Comments blog on the Gricar case. I did not write it. It is a guest blog by a blogger called Slamdunk. I recommend it, especially if you don't like my blogging style.

It can be found here: http://www.centredaily.com/opinion/blogs/

[J. J. in Phila]

For some unknown reason, "Sporadic Comments on the Gricar Case" is down.

I received a message from TXSlueth last night indicating that one of her comments was deleted. An approved comment from "TXslueth" and two from "Erasernut," along with two of my responses were lost (a third post from Erasernut was off topic and not approved). As indicated "TXslueth" contacted me and was invited to re-post.

I noticed that both the blog titles would not appear; my photo was also missing.

I have e-mailed the editor and technical support person at the CDT earlier on 9/1/09. I have had no explanation, but it could be a technical problem. I know that, as of this morning, at least some people could read it.

I indicated that I would be doing this series, titled "The Investigation," and would cover both the conduct of the police and the District Attorney, in late July of 2009. What I had planned to write about was not unknown.

To date, I have had no complaints from the editor. I have not received any "suggestion" from him not to write about any topic. Had I had any complaints from the editor, I would have been more than willing to either pull a particular entry or reword things. (I write a lot in real live and do deal with editors. I do get re-written and am use to it.)

At the time it went down, it was the highest rated blog on the CDT site; I am unaware of any complaints.

While I can read the blog, if you go to it you will see: "This community member's page is currently being reviewed by the editors." I asked for a review and I don't know if this is it or not.

In short, I don't know what happened either. Please, before we jump to any conclusions, let's wait until we see what happened.