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  #1  
Old 11-09-2009, 01:21 PM
LaWanda LaWanda is offline
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VA - Farmville Murders - Four People Murdered in VA College Town #4

Let's start a new thread.. we were at 59 pages on the last one.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...=90795&page=59 #3


Thanks!

Last edited by LaWanda; 11-09-2009 at 01:40 PM.
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Old 11-09-2009, 01:23 PM
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You are correct, I had a bad source on the dates but I still contend they toned it down in order to take the next step and become more mainstream and I think if you look closely you can see that evolution. I do agree that the whole story is rather interesting and it certainly can even be enlightening if understood properly but I am not sure they started with the master plan to end up with GOD and that idea came with the desire to become more mainstream which meant less voilence and a more positive message.

I am admittedly not a big fan and only started reading about them recently but that is what I see so far.
They hit mainstream 1998 .. There stuff may contain more meaning now ,but I believe that is due to the devolopment of maturity ,it is not less violent then it has been and they havent changed the tone of their music. they may have more messages in their new stuff but they are what that always have been. http://www.paoracle.com/?archive=77 Good read gives background
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Old 11-09-2009, 01:25 PM
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I'm the one who (for the time being) thinks Sam is a failed serial killer, mainly because of his signature behavior (bashing heads in). IMO, it is something he had fantasized about doing for quite some time. Clearly, he did not plan the aftermath of the murders out well, but I do believe that once he began his spree he was enjoying himself. Maybe he ultimately realized that he didn't have the head for planning that would be required to continue along this career path.

From the same Wiki link:

Disorganized/asocial offenders
Disorganized asocial offenders are often of low intelligence, have a below average IQ (<90), and commit their crimes impulsively. Whereas the organized killer will specifically set out to hunt a victim, the disorganized will murder someone when the opportunity arises, rarely bothering to dispose of the body but instead just leaving it at the same place where they found the victim. They usually carry out blitz-style attacks, leaping out and attacking their victims without warning, and will typically perform whatever rituals they feel compelled to carry out (e.g., necrophilia, mutilation, cannibalism, etc.) once the victim is dead. They rarely bother to cover their tracks but may still evade capture for extended periods of time due to the anonymous nature of the crime. They are often introverted, socially inadequate with few friends, and they may have a history of mental problems. Richard Chase is an example of a disorganized serial killer.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer
My argument against calling Sam a serial killer is that " Serial Killer" is a classification term, and Sam does not belong in this class. Sam is allegedly a mass murderer (based on the fact pattern that we know, though I personally don't put much weight in the "he might have killed before" hypothesis).

In order to be a serial killer, he would have had to have killed them all separately (or, more separately) over a period of significant time to allow cooling off periods. In this instance, Sam killed everyone in the span of 2-3 days.

Responding directly to the disorganized/ asocial serial killer, this classification is distinguishable as well. These type kill randomly and rarely know their victims.
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Old 11-09-2009, 02:00 PM
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My argument against calling Sam a serial killer is that " Serial Killer" is a classification term, and Sam does not belong in this class. Sam is allegedly a mass murderer (based on the fact pattern that we know, though I personally don't put much weight in the "he might have killed before" hypothesis).

In order to be a serial killer, he would have had to have killed them all separately (or, more separately) over a period of significant time to allow cooling off periods. In this instance, Sam killed everyone in the span of 2-3 days.

Responding directly to the disorganized/ asocial serial killer, this classification is distinguishable as well. These type kill randomly and rarely know their victims.
I understand your point which is why I have referred to him as a failed or wannabe serial killer. If not caught, I believe Sam would have kept on killing and, given the chance, he might have even become competent enough for his spree(s) to last more than 30 days.

One of the reasons that I'm so drawn to this case is that Sam is a bizarre combination of serial/spree/thrill killer. He's quite the unique perp.
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Old 11-09-2009, 01:35 PM
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sorry for the multiple postings, The wifi goes nuts at Lunch in my office because everyones on their computers.

Last edited by AndresEscobar; 11-09-2009 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 11-09-2009, 01:44 PM
AndresEscobar AndresEscobar is offline
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calling him a "serial killer" is like calling the guy at Ft. Hood last week a serial killer. They're not. It's a different animal.
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Old 11-09-2009, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by AndresEscobar View Post
calling him a "serial killer" is like calling the guy at Ft. Hood last week a serial killer. They're not. It's a different animal.
I posted this on the last thread:

I understand your point which is why I have referred to him as a failed or wannabe serial killer. If not caught, I believe Sam would have kept on killing and, given the chance, he might have even become competent enough for his spree(s) to last more than 30 days.

One of the reasons that I'm so drawn to this case is that Sam is a bizarre combination of serial/spree/thrill killer. He's quite the unique perp.

ETA: I would put the Ft. Hood killings in the "going postal" category. Although that's an opinion formed by headlines. I really haven't followed the case closely.
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Last edited by gxm; 11-09-2009 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 11-09-2009, 02:48 PM
AndresEscobar AndresEscobar is offline
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Originally Posted by gxm View Post
I posted this on the last thread:

I understand your point which is why I have referred to him as a failed or wannabe serial killer. If not caught, I believe Sam would have kept on killing and, given the chance, he might have even become competent enough for his spree(s) to last more than 30 days.

One of the reasons that I'm so drawn to this case is that Sam is a bizarre combination of serial/spree/thrill killer. He's quite the unique perp.

ETA: I would put the Ft. Hood killings in the "going postal" category. Although that's an opinion formed by headlines. I really haven't followed the case closely.
Yeah, it's definitely a unique hybrid. Though, I think you're theory will be substantiated if we determine he planned to kill the police officer.
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Old 11-09-2009, 02:07 PM
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calling him a "serial killer" is like calling the guy at Ft. Hood last week a serial killer. They're not. It's a different animal.
But it does appear he may be a necromutilomaniac...

I think this entire area of human behavior is not very well understood actually.
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Old 11-09-2009, 02:32 PM
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But it does appear he may be a necromutilomaniac...

I think this entire area of human behavior is not very well understood actually.


Oh Boy!, huh?
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  #11  
Old 11-09-2009, 01:48 PM
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(respectfully snipped)

BTW: Someone needs to tell the SKR gang that the whole taking on a serial killers name for shock value is a ship that sailed a long time ago. Marilyn Manson anyone?
And at least Marilyn Manson was making a point (coupling "sex" icons with serial killer names). These SKR folks have zero talent and the only point as far as I can tell is to befriend troubled kids and then use them to make money.
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Old 11-09-2009, 02:02 PM
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The use of these two different weapons on each victim doesn't bode well for Sam's argument against premeditation.
IMHO (and IANAL), the best bets for Sam are either to plea out for LWOP or go for an insanity defense. I think his attorneys should only argue against premeditation if they are forced to.
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Old 11-09-2009, 02:17 PM
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Emma had the front bedroom, left side of the house. I believe the girls were killed in their sleep. Premediated. I think the preacher was killed in the living room. I think Mom was killed in the study. Just a guess.
Oh, and by the way,
The only way to get to the basement is thru the kitchen. Kitchen is in the very back of the house where you see the patio area
If the police came to the front door the bodies were sealed off in the other part of the house. The smaller house, other side of the breezeway. The part where Emma's bedroom was.
When you walk in to the front door you are in the living room. You walk to the right are the dining room, breakfast nook and then the kitchen.
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Old 11-09-2009, 02:32 PM
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As far as the popularization of Nazism thing, I think you can blame some of this on Marylin Manson: http://www.nachtkabarett.com/Degener...fac384a3a0e829
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Old 11-09-2009, 02:47 PM
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I DON'T smoke weed often at all.

+I don't mind drugs, I'm a fan of pills also. ^.^

Taken from Mels page on http://www.imgoth.com/users/59839


Last edited by NativeGirl; 11-09-2009 at 02:49 PM.
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Old 11-09-2009, 03:03 PM
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Ragd0ll

Another interesting thing I came across Raz has all the Apostle’s on her page… only one thing is missing and that’s Mel’s Apostle Photo.. We know she has one, why is it no longer on Raz page?? RagDoll is there.. Maybe Pixy could make things clear.. Things are just not adding up…

Another note….Thought it was funny that Emma,Mel or even Sam did not write on Raz’s or Sick’s page about seeing them at the concert and how great it was.. I think something had to go down at the concert….

------->Link to UNHOLY APOSTLES
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/inde...1542959&page=8
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Old 11-09-2009, 03:16 PM
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Cross posted from other thread for reference:

I recall one detective saying that the room the females were found in was a seperate area from the main house seperated by what he called in his words, "a sort of BREEZEWAY" this would imply to me that it may have been a small GUEST HOUSE and that was likely where Emma lived. When the cops came in to the main house they immediately went upstairs to check bedrooms, then after realized there was a guest house and thats where the females were. IMO and from what I have read.


This also suggests that Emma and Mel were possibly killed first in their little seperated guest house and when mom came back the next morning maybe to check on them Sam blindsided her. This is also why the cops didnt smell anything when they came to the mainhouse and checked the basement.

When Dad came over he saw Debs van in the driveway went in and called out and she didnt answer so he went upstairs to what was probably moms bedroom to see if she was in there, Sam sneaked up behind him up there and whacked him.
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Old 11-09-2009, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by PAXIMUS View Post
Cross posted from other thread for reference:

I recall one detective saying that the room the females were found in was a seperate area from the main house seperated by what he called in his words, "a sort of BREEZEWAY" this would imply to me that it may have been a small GUEST HOUSE and that was likely where Emma lived. When the cops came in to the main house they immediately went upstairs to check bedrooms, then after realized there was a guest house and thats where the females were. IMO and from what I have read.


This also suggests that Emma and Mel were possibly killed first in their little seperated guest house and when mom came back the next morning maybe to check on them Sam blindsided her. This is also why the cops didnt smell anything when they came to the mainhouse and checked the basement.

When Dad came over he saw Debs van in the driveway went in and called out and she didnt answer so he went upstairs to what was probably moms bedroom to see if she was in there, Sam sneaked up behind him up there and whacked him.
That's a good scenario IMO. I've always thought the girls were killed first. One thing though, I had asked a local if the "guest house" is accessible via the main house and FWIW she replied that, yes, not only is it accessible from the main house but that's the only way to get into those upper bedrooms (they don't have an outside entrance) over what looks to be a converted garage.
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Old 11-09-2009, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by PAXIMUS View Post
Cross posted from other thread for reference:

I recall one detective saying that the room the females were found in was a seperate area from the main house seperated by what he called in his words, "a sort of BREEZEWAY" this would imply to me that it may have been a small GUEST HOUSE and that was likely where Emma lived. When the cops came in to the main house they immediately went upstairs to check bedrooms, then after realized there was a guest house and thats where the females were. IMO and from what I have read.


This also suggests that Emma and Mel were possibly killed first in their little seperated guest house and when mom came back the next morning maybe to check on them Sam blindsided her. This is also why the cops didnt smell anything when they came to the mainhouse and checked the basement.

When Dad came over he saw Debs van in the driveway went in and called out and she didnt answer so he went upstairs to what was probably moms bedroom to see if she was in there, Sam sneaked up behind him up there and whacked him.
Things get a little hard to follow when the forum jumps. Not to pick on you Pax, but this seemed like you pulled together a few things that have to do with what I've been thinking.

All the early reports had the police finding the 3 females first when they smelled something that indicated there may be dead bodies and then then obtaining a search warrant which led to the finding of the 4th body, the father's.

I've long suspected that either Sam as the guest or Emma as the teenager wanting her own space occupied the "guest house." It could actually be both, if Emma usually had it as a hang out and it was then used as a guest room for Sam while she and Mel were in her bedroom in the main house. The only thing I've had a hard time with is figuring out where a bedroom would be in the little house. I mentioned in an earlier post that the upstairs would have to be very small. If it were built with 16' joists, which is about what it looks like, it would have 15' +- of usable floor space. The roof pitch looks like it's pretty close to 12/12 or 45 degrees. That doesn't leave much room for standing. My numbers probably aren't 100% right on, but they can't be too far off. The breezeway is in line with the entry door at the driveway. That and the chimney severely limits the possible placement of the stairs to whatever upper floor. They also have to be placed so there is head clearance going up, which further cuts into floor space upstairs. I'm an architect/builder by the way, so I have had to deal with just how difficult it can be to fit all of that together. Someone local, (peace_gurl? maybe) said the girls and Ms. Kelley were upstairs in the little house. I'm trying to visualize that and how he might have gotten them there and why. If anyone can provide a scan of a floor plan sketch, even rough, that would be great.


My thought on the killing, is that a hammer was used for that, and then the maul was used to mutilate/rage on the bodies. A maul is just to heavy in my opinion to use on a quick killing spree. Despite reports of Sam running, I don't see any signs of fitness in any of his photos of footage of him in motion. I've worked with a lot of actors and dancers, and I see a stream of joggers past my house virtually every day. I've spent a lot of time looking at how they all move and paying attention to little body language details. I'm not a professional, but I just don't see signs of fitness or bodily control in any of the images of Sam, whether motion or still.

It's actually a little weird (but is there a detail here that isn't?) that Mr. Neiderbrock was hit first with a chunk of wood. If it was something Sam was waiting to do, I'd think his trust weapon form the others would have been the thing he's use. Mr. Neiderbrock probably did call to try to reach Kelley, but if he was already suspicious of Sam, and knew he had a troubled daughter, I can't see him calling to warn them he was coming if he thought they were up to something. I can see that he might use a cellphone from the porch or the driveway, since he would have seen the van in the driveway. It would make sense that he would try to knock at the front door too before trying to enter if he did have a key. I think Sam was caught relatively off guard and had to act. I've also been thinking that Sam's reason for calling the police might have been to try to throw them off by letting them into the house in a controlled fashion to sort of say "hey look, there's nothing going on here."
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Old 11-09-2009, 04:59 PM
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Let's see if we can put this together with some of the locals. There is no guest house. It's all one structure. I originally thought the left side used to be a garage, but look at the aerial view and the home and that section are built back toward the back yard.
Peacegurl: Is that section that looks like an add on from the back the kitchen? When you enter from the rear of the house, is the entry into the breezeway or kitchen?
When you enter through the main front door, Is the living room to the immediate right? Then where is the den and where are the stairs to the second floor? Is there a hallway that just goes straight back from the front entry to the kitchen? When you enter, what is to the left?
Is there a separate door from the main part of the house into the breezeway or is it all open? God I have a lot of questions!!!



[IMG][/IMG]



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Old 11-09-2009, 08:04 PM
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Let's see if we can put this together with some of the locals. There is no guest house. It's all one structure. I originally thought the left side used to be a garage, but look at the aerial view and the home and that section are built back toward the back yard.
Peacegurl: Is that section that looks like an add on from the back the kitchen? When you enter from the rear of the house, is the entry into the breezeway or kitchen?
When you enter through the main front door, Is the living room to the immediate right? Then where is the den and where are the stairs to the second floor? Is there a hallway that just goes straight back from the front entry to the kitchen? When you enter, what is to the left?
Is there a separate door from the main part of the house into the breezeway or is it all open? God I have a lot of questions!!!



[IMG][/IMG]



Emma's room according to a previous owner was downstairs in the front bedroom. You enter that part of the house from the breezeway. It is just one house. Never a mother in law area. The owners before used the breezeway as the main door. Only guest would go to the door with the sidewalk. When you enter that door you enter the living room. You would have to go right to go to the dining room, breakfast nook and then kitchen. There is a backdoor in the kitchen. The only door to the basement is located in the kitchen. It has been years since I have been in there. The breezeway was kind of a den area years ago. I have no idea how they arranged things.
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Old 11-09-2009, 09:32 PM
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WOW All of this must of been a smack in Sam's face I see a couple of his Wicked Intent Buddies...
















WOW I wonder where the boy in the middle parents are..I feel so sorry for that kid!
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Old 11-09-2009, 09:40 PM
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WOW All of this must of been a smack in Sam's face I see a couple of his Wicked Intent Buddies...
















WOW I wonder where the boy in the middle parents are..I feel so sorry for that kid!
As the son of an alcoholic, who used to take his boy bar hopping and keep him entertained with a bag of quarters to feed the Pac-Man machine, I really feel for the kid too.
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Old 11-09-2009, 09:40 PM
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WOW I wonder where the boy in the middle parents are..I feel so sorry for that kid!
If they're like Sam's they're probably in their garage drunk and/or stoned trying to make it big with their own little band.
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Old 11-09-2009, 09:42 PM
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WOW I wonder where the boy in the middle parents are..I feel so sorry for that kid!
omg, he looks the same age as my little boy! :sad:
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