Welcome our Chemist to Websleuths/Syringe in bottle and traces of chloroform #3

[Tricia]

Dear Websleuths Members,

Please welcome DogMom2JoeAndWillie our very own true to life Chemist.

DogMom2JoeAndWillie has a Bachelor of Science degree in Chemistry with excellent grades I might add. She can also kick our butts in Calculus III.

DogMom2JoeAndWillie has so graciously offered to answer questions and offer her input on this subject.

I know it's early to start a #3 thread on this topic but I wanted to introduce you to our Websleuths Chemist.

Continue your discussion of the Syringe and chloroform here and hopefully Dogmom will jump in when she gets a moment.

Tricia
PS. Disclaimer, without actually meeting someone and seeing their I.D. there is no 100 percent guarantee that people are who they say they are but if dogmom2JoeAndWillie is not telling the truth then she went to a lot of trouble to dummy up a grade sheet on a legit College website. We are safe with this one

[QueenD]

Thanks maybe I can understand this more.

Welcome DogMom

[Kimster]

Dogmom, I have learned from your posts even when they weren't about chemistry! Thank you so much for being part of our team here at WS!

[Angel Who Cares]

Thanks so much for your input dogmom!
We all look forward to your posts on this confusing subject & appreciate all of your other posts as well.

Maybe you'll be able to use this as a report in your studies if ever needed. You would have a lot info from the documents to back up a report. It would be nice to find out that you could apply our questions & the documents towards another smashing A in one of your classes. Than you wouldn't feel as gulity about time taken from your studies either. Good excuse if anything for spending time here with us all! LOL

I look forward to hearing what you think about the amount of chloroform that was found in the syringe, Gatorade bottle, & KC's trunk. It seems that local 6 is on the side of the defense that it is meaningless while all the others are calling it the "smoking gun".

[spqr]

Thank you for your knowledge and your time. Much appreciated.

[tasylshari]

Originally Posted by Angel Who Cares

I look forward to hearing what you think about the amount of chloroform that was found in the syringe, Gatorade bottle, & KC's trunk.

respectfully snipped from AWC

ditto...... and welcome and thank you in advance!!!!

[cecybeans]

Dogmom (your official sobriquet it appears) - thanks so much for your diligence in untangling the molecules but even more so for putting them into everyday language for those of us who don't breathe rarified scientific air. We are in your debt!

[doogiesgirl]

Dogmom
You are awesome. You posted about the chemical composition of some hair loss drug and when I asked you to "dumb it down" you put it in terms that even I could understand. That was so nice of you and I appreciate that. You are obviously a chemical "Poindexter" (which we need!) but you are NOT an intelligence snob. I am so glad you are here.
DG

JMHO

[3doglady]

Awesome! Thanks Dogmom

[magic-cat]

Originally Posted by Angel Who Cares

Thanks so much for your input dogmom!
We all look forward to your posts on this confusing subject & appreciate all of your other posts as well.

Maybe you'll be able to use this as a report in your studies if ever needed. You would have a lot info from the documents to back up a report. It would be nice to find out that you could apply our questions & the documents towards another smashing A in one of your classes. Than you wouldn't feel as gulity about time taken from your studies either. Good excuse if anything for spending time here with us all! LOL

I look forward to hearing what you think about the amount of chloroform that was found in the syringe, Gatorade bottle, & KC's trunk. It seems that local 6 is on the side of the defense that it is meaningless while all the others are calling it the "smoking gun".

Hi Angel!
Unfortunately on this one, the defense is right. The amount of chloroform in the syringe and in the bottle is insignifigant.

And to Dogmom? Rock on!!!

[smart blonde]

Welcome Dogmom!
Your input is so appreciated!!!

Tricia... Just for the record, anyone can kick my butt in Calculus III. And, Calculus I & II. Come to think of it the same can be said for algebra, multiplication, substraction, division, addition,.......

Welcome again, Dogmom!!!

[Nosey Parker]

Err ... What's Calculus??

Thank you so much for offering your time and knowledge, Dogmum.

[treeseeker]

Thanks, DogMom. You've already walked us through a few things. Just remember to type v e r y s l o w l y so we can keep up.

[Valhall]

*wavey wavey* Hi Dogmom!

I look forward to learning from you.

[Tricia]

Oh Dear. I hope I didn't scare her off. LOL. She hasn't been on the forum yet to check. She'll be surprised though.

Thank you all for making her feel welcomed.

[biggirl]

Welcome Dogmom!!!! We need you here! Thank you for your input on a subject that is very foreign to me.

[missyjane77]

So if we send Tricia our transcripts, we can be considered semi-experts on that area?

[QuietStorm]

Thanks Tricia and Congratulations, DogMom. Nice to have you among us. I only got up to Trig and that was a long time ago. Can I send you my grandson's math homework? JK.

[DogMom2JoeAndWillie]

Originally Posted by QuietStorm

Thanks Tricia and Congratulations, DogMom. Nice to have you among us. I only got up to Trig and that was a long time ago. Can I send you my grandson's math homework? JK.

Haha, bring it on! I'd be happy to help out in anyway I can, you guys can always PM me homework questions if you want. No promises though...I made B's in Cal 1 and 2 and BARELY made an A in cal 3.

[static]

It all sounded like Charlie Brown's teacher until you helped out !!! Thank you!!!! (us right brainers need you!!!!!!!!!)

[panama]

Why do we think the syringe was ever used to suck liquid from out of the Gatorade bottle?

Info from the last thread:

-There was a tiny bit of testosterone in the Gatorade bottle; much more in the syringe (especially compared to the rest of the syringe's contents).
-There was some overlap with respect to which chemicals were in the (yellow + not yellow) liquid from the syringe, and which were in the Gatorade bottle.

So, the important question (which we might have the answer to) is how much liquid was in the syringe? The pictures make it look like not much, but this could have been after it was emptied to produce item 240.1.1. Do we know if 240.1.1 consists of *all* the liquid from the syringe? A dilution (perhaps from rinsing) of the liquid? Some of the liquid?

Because the simplest explanation, imo, is that someone used the testosterone, put the syringe in the original bag, in a toilet paper tube, and into a Gatorade bottle with cleaner(s) in it. Over time, diffusion resulted in some of the contents of the syringe and bottle mixing, and ending up in both containers.

Why not a complete overlap? The syringe and bottle started out containing different solutions, and could have continued to accumulate different compounds**. For all we know, some of the chemicals don't like each other (think oil and water), some might react to form different chemicals entirely, some might be heavier/lighter and thus not be in as high a concentration where the needle happens to be (like I think JWG said or implied), and perhaps some that were in one but not in the other didn't have sufficient time to mix.

**[It was very warm at times, and we know that plastic bottles (especially when in contact with strong solvents, lactones, etc.) break down and release various compounds. Presumably the same goes for the plastic-syringe-bag, the printing on the plastic-syringe-bag, the toilet paper tube, the printing on the syringe, and the syringe's outer surface.

Even if fancy solvents weren't originally *in* the syringe (though once they were, breakdown would accelerate), with heat and time compounds from the inner surface of the syringe (the plastic part, the black rubber plunger part) would break down into the syringe's liquid. Thus, certain compounds are in the syringe, certain chemicals are outside the syringe.]

So, in conclusion, perhaps what was found is exactly what one would find upon leaving a nearly empty testosterone syringe in a bottle filled with cleaner(s) in the woods in the summer heat for a while. Seems like the most logical explanation to me, assuming the syringe didn't have much liquid in it.

The only question would be why someone would have cleaners in a Gatorade bottle. Well, maybe it was convenient. I know that there was a Gatorade bottle full of antifreeze/wiper-fluid (lol) in my kitchen for a while. This was because it was easier to transport in the car than the giant economy jug. It ended up in the kitchen when the car was cleaned. (It was mildly funny/ironic, and it was certain that nobody would encounter it other than those in the know. )

I can envision that a janitor or cleaning person could have used the bottle to store (industrial) cleaner for detail cleaning, thinking that nobody unsuspecting would ever come into contact with it so it wouldn't be dangerous. Then, s/he or someone else figured it'd be a good place to stick a syringe for disposal. Maybe with some fleeting thoughts about masking the contents/use of the syringe, or getting rid of prints/blood just to be safe. (I think someone else may have mentioned this last part earlier.)

Anyway, just some thoughts.

[ynotdivein]

panama, thanks for the thoughts--your post sent me off in several directions at once! But it seems that what keeps us circling around this topic of Gatorade bottle/syringe is their proximity to the remains. Given the potential links to this case (Wudge I can hear you now, I know I know), what are the odds that a steroid-using janitor would accidentally choose to toss this syringe/concoction/bottle and have it land so close to Caylee's remains, vs the odds that the bottle & contents are related to the murder?

Oh god, just realized... Zenaida may have been a steroid-using janitor nanny. The nannitor did it! (Rushes off to call JB with new lead.)

MOO and still trying to put this all together....

[panama]

<snip>

Originally Posted by ynotdivein

Oh god, just realized... Zenaida may have been a steroid-using janitor nanny. The nannitor did it!

LOL! Reminds me of Brini's "Xanex the Nanex" cracking me up a while ago.

Anyway, it's true about the proximity. Wasn't there a possibility of flooding in the area, though? There was other (seemingly) unrelated trash around the area too, and flooding could filter all the forest trash to a limited number of places... (I can't recall, but this might have been shot down a while ago.)

ETA: Ok, I keep thinking about, "...what are the odds that a steroid-using janitor would accidentally choose to toss this syringe/concoction/bottle and have it land so close to Caylee's remains?" and cracking up hysterically. Funny how my attempt to simplify may well do the opposite. It doesn't haaave to be a janitor, though. Maybe I'll crunch some numbers.

[ynotdivein]

Originally Posted by panama

LOL! Reminds me of Brini's "Xanex the Nanex" cracking me up a while ago.

Anyway, it's true about the proximity. Wasn't there a possibility of flooding in the area, though? There was other (seemingly) unrelated trash around the area too, and flooding could filter all the forest trash to a limited number of places... (I can't recall, but this might have been shot down a while ago.)

OK this has come up enough that I am going to go sleuth it out. There are topo maps of the area that Caylee was found. In a marshy, swampy area that flooded due to groundwater swell during rains, would previously dumped items end up in lower elevations when the waters receded? Beyond runoff from the graded road (which would have been mediated by the 4' grass/gravel road edge at the site plus by the vegetative barrier between road and site of remains) there would not be a strong current in such waters. Dumped items, whether placed at the same time or accidentally/purposely in the same area later than the initial body drop, could well just lift with the groundwater rising, and settle back down not very far from their initial resting point.

Topo maps, here I come!

ETA: OMG rabbit hole, help help help. Map of find site, please? Topographic info seems significant in the eventual disposition/displacement of items found near Caylee. Saw doc with same info earlier today. Cannot find same now. New sleuther learns to take notes: exhibit A.

[rbrnmw2]

I am an insulin dependent diabetic who buys syringes I have never bought one like that I am also however a daughter of a retired Nurse and she was a Hospice Nurse she would have syringes that looked like those in her trunk for patients So I wonder if the facility that CA worked at uses that brand and type of syringe and if anyone knows if that is anywhere in the discovery released thus far?