IN IN - Carmen Van Huss, 19, Indianapolis, 22 March 1993 *arrest*
- Thread starter willcarter
- Start date
Welcome to Websleuths!
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread
FBI profilers say that means it was personal. A rebuffed suitor.
bessie
Verified Insider
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2008
- Messages
- 31,771
- Reaction score
- 1,693
Yes, I know. But sadistic lust/rage killers (e.g, Carl "Coral" Watts) sometimes use similar violence (piquerism) against random victims. In this particular case -- judging solely from the few facts we know -- I can see a rebuffed suitor, but not someone with a close personal association to the victim.
JMO
----------
bessie
Verified Insider
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2008
- Messages
- 31,771
- Reaction score
- 1,693
Hello, :+:MrTT:+:! I'm glad you joined the thread. I thought you were from the area (remembered that from Lauren Spierer's case). Thank you for the information on the apartments. I had an efficiency apartment like that, myself, when I was about Carmen's age (100 years ago
). It had a free-standing bed, but otherwise was similar to what you described. That's why the laundry room scenario seems plausible to me.
bessie
Verified Insider
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2008
- Messages
- 31,771
- Reaction score
- 1,693
bessie
Verified Insider
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2008
- Messages
- 31,771
- Reaction score
- 1,693
:seeya: I'd like to formally welcome Detective Sgt. William Carter of the Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department, a/k/a member "willcarter".
Thank you for bringing Carmen's case to our attention, Detective Carter. I sincerely hope in some small way we can help to bring her murder to a resolution.
And, on that note...
Thank you for bringing Carmen's case to our attention, Detective Carter. I sincerely hope in some small way we can help to bring her murder to a resolution.
And, on that note...
OR
bessie
Verified Insider
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2008
- Messages
- 31,771
- Reaction score
- 1,693
By Carmen's stomach contents and tox screen would be my guess. As for the employees, I have an idea they were questioned, but it would be nice to know for certain that the guy at the apartment wasn't someone she ran into at Taco Bell (or wherever).
bessie
Verified Insider
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2008
- Messages
- 31,771
- Reaction score
- 1,693
This article mentions the number of stab wounds.
http://wishtv.com/2014/04/19/48-hours-to-feature-solved-indianapolis-cold-case/
Thanks Bessie, I missed that, my bad.
The neighbor heard them entering, Carmen saying "get off of me" and someone egressing, but no mention of the sound of someone starting a vehicle and pulling off.
To help round out what we're allowed to know I'll throw out a few questions...
How long had she lived there?
Is this the same apartment that she shared with the other girls that's mentioned in the article?
Did she work that Monday?
"Carmen Van Huss was killed in her apartment on Harcourt Road in 1993. She was raped and then stabbed more than 50 times. No one has been held responsible for the crime."
http://wishtv.com/2014/04/19/48-hours-to-feature-solved-indianapolis-cold-case/
LittleMissContrary
New Member
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2012
- Messages
- 612
- Reaction score
- 16
I agree. I also think that it is possible for a person to develop a one sided relationship with someone they've never met, or have only a slight acquaintance with. For example, a man who lives in close proximity to a woman, begins to exaggerate each encounter with her as having more significance than it really does. He might see this as a relationship of sorts and when she rejects his advances he loses it.
I see this perp as having abandonment issues, perhaps his mother was in and out of his life for periods of time, he appears relatively normal on the surface, has a disarming boyish charm, fairly tall and lanky, dark brown hair with a slightly tousled look, large hands with fingers on the slender side, large narrow feet, pale complexion.
LittleMissContrary
New Member
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2012
- Messages
- 612
- Reaction score
- 16
I am curious about her co-workers at Pizza Hut. Did the police interview any of the employees? An older manager maybe? I am wondering why Pizza Hut made no attempt to use the emergency contact number when Carmen didn't show up to work? What is their policy in situations where employees don't show up to work?
RainyAlaska
Member
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2013
- Messages
- 107
- Reaction score
- 3
LittleMiss, I think you're spot on. The murderer may be someone Carmen said "Hello" to in passing but maybe the murderer exaggerated the relationship to the point of obession. He may have been dealing with some mental health issues or substance abuse that gave he delusions. But he could have still been "normal" enough to live day to day. I strongly suspect that the murderer is someone who lived in the building or was a frequent visitor (grandson visiting his grandmother or a brother of a tenant who was a temporary resident).
While the 50 stab wounds were a very personal, hands-on method of murder, Carmen may have been a substitute for the real object of his anger. If she rejected his advances, he may have seen it as more rejection/neglect after a lifetime of such treatment. That might be a reason for the horrible "overkill" of 50 stab wounds. The unknown suspect probably has a police record for other crimes against women. Probably also still has mental health issues that are unresolved.:twocents:
Kell1
Verified law enforcement
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2013
- Messages
- 1,248
- Reaction score
- 4,844
Just to clear the air a bit, there is a very distinct difference between "Lust murder" and sadism
Each of these have a specific criteria to make that determination, however I haven't read anywhere where these were present at this scene.
Though both of these are a result of a paraphilia's they both have distinct behavioral differences.
Ill refrain from going into the specifics, but I don't feel this was a lust murder, and there's no evidence mentioned to support sadism (torture etc..)
Ok as always Profile the victim through a victimology analysis
(I wont post it again, because its so damn large, unless someone wants me to)
But establish why she was a victim, establish her risk criteria, establish the risk criteria for the offender.
Scrutinize, who she hung around with, look at her phone records, who did she talk to , who visited recently .
Did something happen recently?
Was she being stalked by anyone ?
It would be IMPERATIVE to establish if the murder weapon came from the residence, or if it was brought by the killer, from what I read the weapon was both brought and removed.
we can also look for POST offensive behavior, did any of her friends, all the sudden and unexplainably move ?, anyone notice any of her friends, have an sudden increase, in alcohol or drug use?, anyone change their appearance?
Though the victim was killed, we have to ask the question, is this more of a rape, gone wrong, or a planned murder with a sexual element?
Being since the sexual assault appears to be ante-mortem (before death) we can make a scientific assumption the motive for this crime was rape with murder secondary
Rape generally falls into 3 categories, (Power/Anger/Opportunity) with 4 subcategories that make up the first 2 typologies .
I use these typologies, because the offender, was organized enough to bring a weapon , or had it on his person in the first place
1) Power (most common) 2 types (Reassurance/Assertive)
2) Anger (less common) 2 types (Retaliatory/Excitation)
3) Opportunistic -Rape during the commission of another crime, (Ex burglary)
There's no mention of her being robbed, or anything taken from the victim or her apt, I also didn't read anywhere that the victim was bound or restrained, in any way , so opportunistic rape tentatively can be set aside.
Anger Retaliatory types, (as well as Sadists) usually attack strangers, id expect to see various forms of humiliation, these are individuals "haters" if you will , of something real or perceived. they feel an injustice has been laid upon them and they seek to make the victim pay (whether it be direct, indirect, or reflective) wrongs.
Often injuries targeted at sexual organs , usually severe depersonalization, humiliation, scripting (forcing the victim to say or act a certain way) are present . The victim often suffers more blunt trauma, than is needed to force victim compliance.
The problem is that this is usually not planned, and is most often a type of spontaneous response, to some triggering event. Hence the offender most often DOESNT bring a weapon. He usually relies, on his fists, or what he can access readily at the crime scene.
There's no evidence of torture, or prolonged, suffering by the victim, PLUS, Sadists (anger excitation) rapists, don't generally assault those they know, about 90% percent are strangers. Not to mention they are the least common typology (2%). Sadism usually requires time with the victim, for without the stimulation of an suffering victim, the offender, cannot begin toe arousal or gratification process. "Its always by way of pain, one arrives at pleasure "..Marquis De Sade
The Power reassurance rapist (the most common type) or "gentleman rapist" is basically someone who seeks to reaffirm their masculinity, through the process of rape. He often rapes strangers whom he tries (though it will sound odd) to connect to intimately. He will often caress the victim, kiss the victim, talk to the victim the way a significant other would. He has NO intention of physically injuring the victim, unless its what's needed to force victim compliance, which can has included violence up to and including murder in rare cases. .
He may conduct surveillance, on the victim prior , and most often uses, a surprise style of attack, though he may attempt to do so through con or ruse.
He's often apologetic following the rape, sometimes before or during, often suffers from some type of sexual dysfunction , may or may not take a trophy.
This type will often re-contact victims, through the delusion the victim actually enjoyed the assault , and may wish to pursue a relationship with the offender.
Though we can speculate that the victim resistance to the attack MAY have been the catalyst for her murder, I find that difficult to say, due to the amount of overkill (50+ stab wounds) and the fact the offender brought and removed the weapon
That leaves one type, Power Assertive rape.
The power assertive type is the second most common type of rapist .
The Power assertive, is basically your "macho" type, who feels its his right as male to take sexually that which he desires.
Date rape is not beyond his realm of behavior
Will often use enough force to force victim compliance, but will escalate along with victim resistance, (he cant let a victim, especially a female, physically or mentally dominate him)
Often meets the victim immediately prior to the attack, could be hours, or even minutes.
Demonstrates little concern for the victim, often callous indifference , will often cut (if he brought a weapon) or tear her clothes off.
Psychologically women are a means of gratification (sexual release) that's it, to him its his unwritten right as a male. Therefore he may frequent singles bars, singles events, dating sites, may frequent prostitutes, even though he may be in a relationship
If he is in a relationship, it will be one of mostly dominance by him with a somewhat submissive partner, whom he may be significantly older than.
May or may not bring a weapon, if he does its usually a weapon of choice, (knife or gun most often)
May commit multiple assaults within a small timeframe
(investigative consideration, check to see if there were any other assaults bearing this type of behavior in the hours, or days following her murder!)
he often knows his victim... which is what we all seem to identify with on this case. We know she resisted , at least verbally, which to the above type individual could trigger, an escalation of force, needed.. It may have also been a way to eliminate a witness, if he felt threatened she would call police post offense.
Though my feeling is she fought him, and he escalated, to the point he was going to "show her"
This all seems to exist in this case within a interpersonal realm with the offender and victim (She knew him)
Each of these have a specific criteria to make that determination, however I haven't read anywhere where these were present at this scene.
Though both of these are a result of a paraphilia's they both have distinct behavioral differences.
Ill refrain from going into the specifics, but I don't feel this was a lust murder, and there's no evidence mentioned to support sadism (torture etc..)
Ok as always Profile the victim through a victimology analysis
(I wont post it again, because its so damn large, unless someone wants me to)
But establish why she was a victim, establish her risk criteria, establish the risk criteria for the offender.
Scrutinize, who she hung around with, look at her phone records, who did she talk to , who visited recently .
Did something happen recently?
Was she being stalked by anyone ?
It would be IMPERATIVE to establish if the murder weapon came from the residence, or if it was brought by the killer, from what I read the weapon was both brought and removed.
we can also look for POST offensive behavior, did any of her friends, all the sudden and unexplainably move ?, anyone notice any of her friends, have an sudden increase, in alcohol or drug use?, anyone change their appearance?
Though the victim was killed, we have to ask the question, is this more of a rape, gone wrong, or a planned murder with a sexual element?
Being since the sexual assault appears to be ante-mortem (before death) we can make a scientific assumption the motive for this crime was rape with murder secondary
Rape generally falls into 3 categories, (Power/Anger/Opportunity) with 4 subcategories that make up the first 2 typologies .
I use these typologies, because the offender, was organized enough to bring a weapon , or had it on his person in the first place
1) Power (most common) 2 types (Reassurance/Assertive)
2) Anger (less common) 2 types (Retaliatory/Excitation)
3) Opportunistic -Rape during the commission of another crime, (Ex burglary)
There's no mention of her being robbed, or anything taken from the victim or her apt, I also didn't read anywhere that the victim was bound or restrained, in any way , so opportunistic rape tentatively can be set aside.
Anger Retaliatory types, (as well as Sadists) usually attack strangers, id expect to see various forms of humiliation, these are individuals "haters" if you will , of something real or perceived. they feel an injustice has been laid upon them and they seek to make the victim pay (whether it be direct, indirect, or reflective) wrongs.
Often injuries targeted at sexual organs , usually severe depersonalization, humiliation, scripting (forcing the victim to say or act a certain way) are present . The victim often suffers more blunt trauma, than is needed to force victim compliance.
The problem is that this is usually not planned, and is most often a type of spontaneous response, to some triggering event. Hence the offender most often DOESNT bring a weapon. He usually relies, on his fists, or what he can access readily at the crime scene.
There's no evidence of torture, or prolonged, suffering by the victim, PLUS, Sadists (anger excitation) rapists, don't generally assault those they know, about 90% percent are strangers. Not to mention they are the least common typology (2%). Sadism usually requires time with the victim, for without the stimulation of an suffering victim, the offender, cannot begin toe arousal or gratification process. "Its always by way of pain, one arrives at pleasure "..Marquis De Sade
The Power reassurance rapist (the most common type) or "gentleman rapist" is basically someone who seeks to reaffirm their masculinity, through the process of rape. He often rapes strangers whom he tries (though it will sound odd) to connect to intimately. He will often caress the victim, kiss the victim, talk to the victim the way a significant other would. He has NO intention of physically injuring the victim, unless its what's needed to force victim compliance, which can has included violence up to and including murder in rare cases. .
He may conduct surveillance, on the victim prior , and most often uses, a surprise style of attack, though he may attempt to do so through con or ruse.
He's often apologetic following the rape, sometimes before or during, often suffers from some type of sexual dysfunction , may or may not take a trophy.
This type will often re-contact victims, through the delusion the victim actually enjoyed the assault , and may wish to pursue a relationship with the offender.
Though we can speculate that the victim resistance to the attack MAY have been the catalyst for her murder, I find that difficult to say, due to the amount of overkill (50+ stab wounds) and the fact the offender brought and removed the weapon
That leaves one type, Power Assertive rape.
The power assertive type is the second most common type of rapist .
The Power assertive, is basically your "macho" type, who feels its his right as male to take sexually that which he desires.
Date rape is not beyond his realm of behavior
Will often use enough force to force victim compliance, but will escalate along with victim resistance, (he cant let a victim, especially a female, physically or mentally dominate him)
Often meets the victim immediately prior to the attack, could be hours, or even minutes.
Demonstrates little concern for the victim, often callous indifference , will often cut (if he brought a weapon) or tear her clothes off.
Psychologically women are a means of gratification (sexual release) that's it, to him its his unwritten right as a male. Therefore he may frequent singles bars, singles events, dating sites, may frequent prostitutes, even though he may be in a relationship
If he is in a relationship, it will be one of mostly dominance by him with a somewhat submissive partner, whom he may be significantly older than.
May or may not bring a weapon, if he does its usually a weapon of choice, (knife or gun most often)
May commit multiple assaults within a small timeframe
(investigative consideration, check to see if there were any other assaults bearing this type of behavior in the hours, or days following her murder!)
he often knows his victim... which is what we all seem to identify with on this case. We know she resisted , at least verbally, which to the above type individual could trigger, an escalation of force, needed.. It may have also been a way to eliminate a witness, if he felt threatened she would call police post offense.
Though my feeling is she fought him, and he escalated, to the point he was going to "show her"
This all seems to exist in this case within a interpersonal realm with the offender and victim (She knew him)
bessie
Verified Insider
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2008
- Messages
- 31,771
- Reaction score
- 1,693
:seeya: Please check out this link. Thanks.
*** READ ME, PLEASE *** Site Upgrade *** READ ME, PLEASE *** - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
*** READ ME, PLEASE *** Site Upgrade *** READ ME, PLEASE *** - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
bessie
Verified Insider
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2008
- Messages
- 31,771
- Reaction score
- 1,693
<rsbm>
I didn't use the term "sadistic" as a "type", but rather to describe behavior sometimes evident in murders committed by various (more than one) "types". Further, I didn't apply a "type" to this particular murder. Fifty plus stab wounds is significant, but imo it's not enough to assert whether the killer was a predator, or some guy on the edge who can't tolerate being turned down.
For reference:
http://faculty.csbsju.edu/uspp/crimpsych/CPSG-5.htm
http://www.practicalhomicide.com/Research/research.htm
http://www.practicalhomicide.com/Research/lustmurder.htm
http://www.scribd.com/doc/40094487/Psychology-of-Lust-Murder
Hejlena
Former Member
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2010
- Messages
- 1,777
- Reaction score
- 24
Rich I always appreciate your analyses, but I just want to clarify one part-we don't know for sure that this offender brought the murder weapon, do we? Maybe I missed something.
I have a couple questions, and if there are family/friends reading here, I apologize in advance.
Why was Carmen raised by her Aunt and Uncle? Did the Dad ever say why he wanted her to spend the night? Where was the 15 year old brother that night? Cousins?
Where is Carmen's mother? Did she have a step father?
At the risk of being entirely offensive, I feel it's a legitimate question: Has the DNA profile been checked for a familial link?
Finally, I'm going to bump the facebook page here because I think there are a couple of interesting comments:
https://m.facebook.com/pages/Justice-for-Carmen-Vanhuss/208612462636298?_rdr
I agree with the power reassurance label, it does seem to fit in this instance, but I don't think we rule out the guy being a sadist or at least a developing sadist. With the neighbors being in close proximity he might not have been able to fully explore his paraphillia. Piquerism is approaching the bottom on the depravity scale. There's only three steps lower according to what I've read, they are, necrophilia, vampirism (blood draining) and cannibalism.