MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #17

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Actually, there are a couple more: McKnight, who said he stumbled toward the officer but didn't rush him, and Walker, who said he saw MB "walking at a steady pace" toward the officer.

So on the "surrendering" side we have DJ, PC, & TM.

On the "advancing toward OW" side we have the overheard-guy on the Black Canseco recording, the 2 construction workers, Brady, and the anonymous Twitter person, plus Josie (if you care to give her story any credibility), plus the evidence cones further out beyond MB's body.

So, I would say that most of the witnesses seem to say the latter (i.e., advancing). Maybe advancing with hands up, maybe advancing with hands out, maybe advancing with hands wrapped around stomach, but advancing. On the surrendering side, I'm sorry, but those witnesses have not proven themselves to be particularly trustworthy or credible. DJ is a known liar, and there's no way that PC could have seen everything she claims to have seen, what with all the going from window to window and gathering her things for work and so forth. And TM, from her vantage point, it's not likely that she could have seen everything as clearly as she claims to.

You are, of course, completely free to believe that it's up in the air which way it actually happened, just as I'm free to believe that at least the preponderance of the evidence strongly suggests a very justified shoot. Way more than reasonable doubt, which is what it would take to actually convict OW.

I think the point is that those statements have to be flushed out. Were TM and DJ and PC influenced by outside sources. The workers also said MB didn't rush OW, so exactly what does that mean? How do all of those statements fit the physical facts at the scene?

Regarding your last paragraph, you're absolutely right. Everyone is entitled to draw their own conclusions. I just happen to also be of the opinion that it is telling if one can draw a conclusion either way when they don't know even a fraction of the facts yet. And that holds true for those wanting OW convicted and thrown in jail or even charges brought without a GJ as much as it does for people who already opine that the shooting was justified.

Look, I get it. Trying to get to answers is what we do here. We form opinions early on in cases as to what we think happened or how things played out. My only point is that we have to make sure we don't dig ourselves so far into a position that that position can't later be changed as more evidence comes to light.
 
https://twitter.com/frenchiiewendia/status/510084439917858816

No idea how to post this image/flyer?? here, but it looks like now they're planning to boycott Ferguson businesses until Mayor Knowles and Chief Jackson resign. Sure injuring your local economy is bound to help, although if these are the same people who think it's ok to strong arm and threaten, the businesses may be A-ok with them staying away.

BxOc6hNCQAE6qhR.jpg

ETA: Was this the flyer you wanted to post?

I just tried it out to see if it would work. There is a button "Insert Image" (you see it when you go with your cursor on the top bar of your post), click on it, then choose if "From URL", copy and past "Link of Location" (you see it if you right-click on the photo), they insert it to the bar of "From URL" and confirm. Hope that helps. :)
 
I was a liberal once, would have laid my life on the line for civil rights - once.

What's ironic is someone the other day called me a conservative. Call me bipolar. Honestly, I don't know if I subscribe to any one label. Not going to drag a lot of political issues into this thread, but suffice it to say I actually have many very conservative views as well.
 
What I'm left with is, after the assault at the car, and the gunshot there, it's certain that MB fled. OW may or may not have fired at least once while MB was fleeing. It's remotely possible (IMO) that a shot from behind may have grazed the inside of MB's arm, but I don't think so. At some point, MB realized he was being chased (and possibly shot at), and that he wasn't going to get away. MB turned around and began advancing toward OW. When MB turned around, he may have had his arms up or out, or down around his abdomen, or somewhere else altogether. As MB advanced toward OW, OW probably backed up, and he continued to fire until MB fell dead -- probably within just a few feet of OW.

That's enough for me. OW was legitimately in fear for his life at the time he fired the fatal shots. They can stop rioting and threatening now, and go on home.

Wow, sonjay, this post is EPIC and your analysis so thorough. I've saved the URL to it so I have it for reference. Thank you.

The three main things that have jumped out to me about their testimony is:
- that they said 3 officers, which doesn't appear to match the data we have to date;
- Michael saying ok repeatedly doesn't make sense or match anything we've heard thus far. I believe that Darren said, "Freeze". It seems like that'd be a gut level spontaneous exclamation;
- That Darren was backing up, just as he's said according to multiple accounts, and witnesses corroborate. That is HUGE. An officer would never back up while firing at a subject unless said subject is advancing on them and close enough to pose a threat, so you back up to provide safe distance while firing to neutralize the threat. He would not back up if Michael was stationary. That's my take on it.

Respectfully snipped for space and focus, and BBM.

Thank you, sonjay, for this carefully researched post!

I agree that MB advancing back toward OW, after a period of flight, AFTER the assault and struggle over OW's gun in his patrol vehicle, is really a key moment in the whole scenario. That we now have several indications that OW was actually backing up is also, IMO, a very critical piece of information with which to evaluate the justification for shooting.

OW had already been physically assaulted by MB, and engaged in a "close combat" struggle over OW's weapon, and the weapon was actually discharged. We know that from the Chief's initial statement. So, in my mind, OW, as a sworn peace officer on duty, had no duty to allow MB to assault him AGAIN, or try to take his weapon AGAIN. He absolutely had a duty no NOT allow MB to get close enough to him AGAIN to try to take his weapon from him. This isn't ONLY about self defense for the officer, or the officer fearing for his life. The officer KNEW that this suspect had been willing to impulsively assault him, simply because the officer talked to him and asked him to get out of the road. He hadn't even written MB a ticket or anything, at that point-- and presumably had not yet even made the connection to MB as the robbery & assault suspect.

For me, what it boils down to is that the officer, in addition to fearing for his life and safety (he had just been assaulted and this suspect had tried to take his gun), OW had a very specific duty to prevent MB from a second attempt at taking his weapon away from him. This was a dangerously impulsive, and violent suspect, at that critical point in time. OW, IMO, did exactly the right thing. He prevented an advancing suspect from a second attempt to assault, or possibly kill him, and a second attempt to take his gun away from him, which would have made this suspect even MORE dangerous to anyone in the immediate area. It simply doesn't matter at all where his hands were, at the point he was advancing again at OW.

For clarity on this point, lets revisit a police shooting video linked on these threads previously. Remember the video linked by Linda7NJ, with a suspect bending toward an officer as if to surrender his semi automatic rifle and lay it on the sidewalk, while simultaneously reaching into his back waistband and pulling out a handgun? He was instantly shot dead by the officer, and as the suspect lay dead on the sidewalk, the handgun is clearly visible, still gripped in his right hand. THIS is the unpredictable danger that officers face every day. Until a violent suspect is handcuffed and in custody, they are not to be trusted, nor are they presumed to be unarmed. The fact that MB was eventually determined to be unarmed is not even relevant to whether the shooting by OW was justified!

ETA: here is the video again. And a warning that it's graphic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSQRMGmDzkM

It just drives me bananas that only one side of this story, the Brown family inflammatory adjective- laced version, is being told in the media, story after story, as if it is true. Had MB been accurately described as the impulsive and violent suspect he was, tensions may have been reduced much sooner. There has been almost zero attempts at balance in reporting, which, IMO, is deeply unethical, and even immoral, since I believe the media reporting has increased the damage and violence by validating and inflaming the rioters. I wish the media could be held accountable for their unethical reporting.

I hope the time is soon for the real truth to be told about the assault inside OW's vehicle, and what the duty of a sworn officer is in that situation. The public needs to hear that this was not just about self defense! OW was not a civilian!

I'm looking forward to the press conference that I hope the police chief, investigators, and district attorney team will give as soon as the GJ hands down a "no true bill". And yes, there will be riots again, but hopefully sensible people will get out of town, and this time the police will take control of the situation before half the town is burned or looted again. IMO.
 
To cover her hiney when it was revealed Brown went forward, but still toe the party line for the narrative?

Plus using the word "centimeter" sounds so educated, I am surprised she didn't say millimeter. :rolleyes:
 
Respectfully snipped for space and focus, and BBM.

Thank you, sonjay, for this carefully researched post!

I agree that MB advancing back toward OW, after a period of flight, AFTER the assault and struggle over OW's gun in his patrol vehicle, is really a key moment in the whole scenario. That we now have several indications that OW was actually backing up is also, IMO, a very critical piece of information with which to evaluate the justification for shooting.

OW had already been physically assaulted by MB, and engaged in a "close combat" struggle over OW's weapon, and the weapon was actually discharged. We know that from the Chief's initial statement. So, in my mind, OW, as a sworn peace officer on duty, had no duty to allow MB to assault him AGAIN, or try to take his weapon AGAIN. He absolutely had a duty no NOT allow MB to get close enough to him AGAIN to try to take his weapon from him. This isn't ONLY about self defense for the officer, or the officer fearing for his life. The officer KNEW that this suspect had been willing to impulsively assault him, simply because the officer talked to him and asked him to get out of the road. He hadn't even written MB a ticket or anything, at that point-- and presumably had not yet even made the connection to MB as the robbery & assault suspect.

For me, what it boils down to is that the officer, in addition to fearing for his life and safety (he had just been assaulted and this suspect had tried to take his gun), OW had a very specific duty to prevent MB from a second attempt at taking his weapon away from him. This was a dangerously impulsive, and violent suspect, at that critical point in time. OW, IMO, did exactly the right thing. He prevented an advancing suspect from a second attempt to assault, or possibly kill him, and a second attempt to take his gun away from him, which would have made this suspect even MORE dangerous to anyone in the immediate area. It simply doesn't matter at all where his hands were, at the point he was advancing again at OW.

For clarity on this point, lets revisit a police shooting video linked on these threads previously. Remember the video linked by Linda7NJ, with a suspect bending toward an officer as if to surrender his semi automatic rifle and lay it on the sidewalk, while simultaneously reaching into his back waistband and pulling out a handgun? He was instantly shot dead by the officer, and as the suspect lay dead on the sidewalk, the handgun is clearly visible, still gripped in his right hand. THIS is the unpredictable danger that officers face every day. Until a violent suspect is handcuffed and in custody, they are not to be trusted, nor are they presumed to be unarmed. The fact that MB was eventually determined to be unarmed is not even relevant to whether the shooting by OW was justified!

It just drives me bananas that only one side of this story, the Brown family inflammatory adjective- laced version, is being told in the media, story after story, as if it is true. Had MB been accurately described as the impulsive and violent suspect he was, tensions may have been reduced much sooner. There has been almost zero attempts at balance in reporting, which, IMO, is deeply unethical, and even immoral, since I believe the media reporting has increased the damage and violence by validating and inflaming the rioters. I wish the media could be held accountable for their unethical reporting.

I hope the time is soon for the real truth to be told about the assault inside OW's vehicle, and what the duty of a sworn officer is in that situation. The public needs to hear that this was not just about self defense! OW was not a civilian!

I'm looking forward to the press conference that I hope the police chief, investigators, and district attorney team will give as soon as the GJ hands down a "no true bill". And yes, there will be riots again, but hopefully sensible people will get out of town, and this time the police will take control of the situation before half the town is burned or looted again. IMO.

Completely agree with the bolded.

As for only the Brown side being discussed, I am would bet that Crump along with others would love to hear the officer's side. Understandably though, DW isn't giving his side and law enforcement investigating the case isn't releasing their findings for the most part.
 
Was this a twitter by Atiya Shahid 11 hours ago? Do you know by chance who she is? His wife possibly? Maybe she is just hopeful and assuming that he would be released at 5 p.m. today.

On the other hand, I'm hoping he will be held much longer and thoroughly interrogated by the FBI. JMO.

IDK for sure, of course, but I suspect Shahid has been arrested MANY times over the years for his protest behaviors. (I was actually surprised to read he is only 59 years old-- I thought he was late 60s to early 70s.) So I'm sure he and his family know how the arrest, bail, and charging process works. However, the charges on the mug shot say 2nd degree assault of an officer, which is relatively serious in light of the demonstrations and riots. It's possible he could be held "no bail" a while longer.
 
ETA: Was this the flyer you wanted to post?

I just tried it out to see if it would work. There is a button "Insert Image" (you see it when you go with your cursor on the top bar of your post), click on it, then choose if "From URL", copy and past "Link of Location" (you see it if you right-click on the photo), they insert it to the bar of "From URL" and confirm. Hope that helps. :)

Thank you for posting and the instructions. I'll have to save those! I'm not on Twitter either, just dig around. :)
 
Were TM and DJ and PC influenced by outside sources.
Possibly. But regardless of whether they were influenced by others, none of the 3 is particularly credible.
The workers also said MB didn't rush OW, so exactly what does that mean?
As far as I can tell, they both said he was walking back or "stumbling" toward the officer. So, both of them describe MB moving toward OW, regardless of where his hands were or what he was saying.
I just happen to also be of the opinion that it is telling if one can draw a conclusion either way when they don't know even a fraction of the facts yet.
Honest question here.... Are you actually truly 100% undecided whether MB was advancing toward OW? Truly undecided whether the shooting was justified? You could just as easily come down on one side as the other? You don't, at this point, have any opinion about how it played out?
Look, I get it. Trying to get to answers is what we do here. We form opinions early on in cases as to what we think happened or how things played out. My only point is that we have to make sure we don't dig ourselves so far into a position that that position can't later be changed as more evidence comes to light.
I've not hesitated to make my position known, based on the evidence that's currently available. But I will likewise not hesitate to change that position if new, opposing evidence comes to light that outweighs the currently known evidence. All important decisions are made on the basis of insufficient evidence. Most jury decisions are made without all the evidence. Sometimes it simply doesn't exist, sometimes it's ruled inadmissible, sometimes it's lost or destroyed, sometimes witnesses die or move away or "can't remember." We never truly know 100% of the facts of any case. But juries still draw conclusions and make decisions, every single day. Benefit of the doubt goes to the defendant -- who, in this case, is OW.
 
Actually, there are a couple more: McKnight, who said he stumbled toward the officer but didn't rush him, and Walker, who said he saw MB "walking at a steady pace" toward the officer.

So on the "surrendering" side we have DJ, PC, & TM.

On the "advancing toward OW" side we have the overheard-guy on the Black Canseco recording, the 2 construction workers, Brady, and the anonymous Twitter person, plus Josie (if you care to give her story any credibility), plus the evidence cones further out beyond MB's body.

So, I would say that most of the witnesses seem to say the latter (i.e., advancing). Maybe advancing with hands up, maybe advancing with hands out, maybe advancing with hands wrapped around stomach, but advancing. On the surrendering side, I'm sorry, but those witnesses have not proven themselves to be particularly trustworthy or credible. DJ is a known liar, and there's no way that PC could have seen everything she claims to have seen, what with all the going from window to window and gathering her things for work and so forth. And TM, from her vantage point, it's not likely that she could have seen everything as clearly as she claims to.

You are, of course, completely free to believe that it's up in the air which way it actually happened, just as I'm free to believe that at least the preponderance of the evidence strongly suggests a very justified shoot. Way more than reasonable doubt, which is what it would take to actually convict OW.

Who is Walker? I can't remember that witness?
 
Who is Walker? I can't remember that witness?
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_14a3e5f8-6c6a-5deb-92fe-87fcee622c29.html "Phillip Walker, 40, another Canfield Green resident, told the Post-Dispatch on Tuesday that Brown was walking at a steady pace toward Wilson, with his hands up. “Not quickly,” Walker said. “He did not rush the officer.” Walker, who is distantly related to a Post-Dispatch reporter not involved in this report, said the last shot, into the top of Brown’s head, was from about 4 feet away."
 
What's ironic is someone the other day called me a conservative. Call me bipolar. Honestly, I don't know if I subscribe to any one label. Not going to drag a lot of political issues into this thread, but suffice it to say I actually have many very conservative views as well.

That is ironic. Further, I believe this case has solidified a lot of peoples' thinking, for the better or the worse, depending.

I believe in fairness, facts, and truth, not mob violence, chants, and demands. If we are living in a country with laws, everyone should abide by those laws. It pains me, badly, to see the Ferguson mess and I hurt for the good people living there. It really frightens and worries me to see the mind-set of those at the "meeting" the other night, and the lawlessness that goes on under cover of legitimate protest. I believe Ferguson opened the eyes of many people.

My only consolation is the fact that I'm old and won't be around to see America devolve any further.

:cow:
 
Respectfully snipped for space and focus, and BBM.

Thank you, sonjay, for this carefully researched post!

I agree that MB advancing back toward OW, after a period of flight, AFTER the assault and struggle over OW's gun in his patrol vehicle, is really a key moment in the whole scenario. That we now have several indications that OW was actually backing up is also, IMO, a very critical piece of information with which to evaluate the justification for shooting.

OW had already been physically assaulted by MB, and engaged in a "close combat" struggle over OW's weapon, and the weapon was actually discharged. We know that from the Chief's initial statement. So, in my mind, OW, as a sworn peace officer on duty, had no duty to allow MB to assault him AGAIN, or try to take his weapon AGAIN. He absolutely had a duty no NOT allow MB to get close enough to him AGAIN to try to take his weapon from him. This isn't ONLY about self defense for the officer, or the officer fearing for his life. The officer KNEW that this suspect had been willing to impulsively assault him, simply because the officer talked to him and asked him to get out of the road. He hadn't even written MB a ticket or anything, at that point-- and presumably had not yet even made the connection to MB as the robbery & assault suspect.

For me, what it boils down to is that the officer, in addition to fearing for his life and safety (he had just been assaulted and this suspect had tried to take his gun), OW had a very specific duty to prevent MB from a second attempt at taking his weapon away from him. This was a dangerously impulsive, and violent suspect, at that critical point in time. OW, IMO, did exactly the right thing. He prevented an advancing suspect from a second attempt to assault, or possibly kill him, and a second attempt to take his gun away from him, which would have made this suspect even MORE dangerous to anyone in the immediate area. It simply doesn't matter at all where his hands were, at the point he was advancing again at OW.

For clarity on this point, lets revisit a police shooting video linked on these threads previously. Remember the video linked by Linda7NJ, with a suspect bending toward an officer as if to surrender his semi automatic rifle and lay it on the sidewalk, while simultaneously reaching into his back waistband and pulling out a handgun? He was instantly shot dead by the officer, and as the suspect lay dead on the sidewalk, the handgun is clearly visible, still gripped in his right hand. THIS is the unpredictable danger that officers face every day. Until a violent suspect is handcuffed and in custody, they are not to be trusted, nor are they presumed to be unarmed. The fact that MB was eventually determined to be unarmed is not even relevant to whether the shooting by OW was justified!

It just drives me bananas that only one side of this story, the Brown family inflammatory adjective- laced version, is being told in the media, story after story, as if it is true. Had MB been accurately described as the impulsive and violent suspect he was, tensions may have been reduced much sooner. There has been almost zero attempts at balance in reporting, which, IMO, is deeply unethical, and even immoral, since I believe the media reporting has increased the damage and violence by validating and inflaming the rioters. I wish the media could be held accountable for their unethical reporting.

I hope the time is soon for the real truth to be told about the assault inside OW's vehicle, and what the duty of a sworn officer is in that situation. The public needs to hear that this was not just about self defense! OW was not a civilian!

I'm looking forward to the press conference that I hope the police chief, investigators, and district attorney team will give as soon as the GJ hands down a "no true bill". And yes, there will be riots again, but hopefully sensible people will get out of town, and this time the police will take control of the situation before half the town is burned or looted again. IMO.

:yourock: Excellent points! Saved this post too for reference. Your posts are always thorough. Post more please. :D
 
If you hate the mayor, vote in a new one. It saddens me that the people of Ferguson are not aware of how elected officials become ELECTED OFFICIALS.
 
Most witnesses say he was advancing. The "new" ones add Wilson was retreating while firing. As K_Z so aptly pointed out, those two elements were not happening in a vacuum. Per my previous post regarding Wilson and corroborating witnesses, the officer did hear the BOLO before getting attacked by Michael, then Michael knocks him back into the SUV, pummeling him, struggling for the gun, does not stop his attack despite two warnings the officer will shoot, only stops once the officer fires, and then advances on the officer again, ignoring an order to freeze just like he ignored the lawful order to get off the street. Nothing about this looks unjustified to me.
 
If you hate the mayor, vote in a new one. It saddens me that the people of Ferguson are not aware of how elected officials become ELECTED OFFICIALS.

They know. They don't want rules, policies, laws, and authority to apply to them, from what we've seen and heard. I do think there's some ignorance regarding some things, but it also appears they want things done their way, only, immediately.

ETA: And what, then? The rioters get to self appoint a new mayor??
 
IMO

I think its reasonable to assume people are going to fall on either side of the fence, with very few if any truly sitting on the fence.

I'd love to say "I'm of the wait and see variety." but I'll be honest, I am waiting for more info, but at this time I lean more toward the LE being justified. To many people seem to have ulterior motives for it to be otherwise, to mark one of my favorite Sherlock Holmes quotes "In any crime, determine who has the most to gain." In this case the only thing the LE had to gain was some twisted power trip, which I don't see the evidence of that in Darren Wilson. As far as Michael Brown however I can see what he had to gain by assaulting and escaping the officer.

I do find it terribly vexing however how witnesses are unreliable at best, but then again aren't eyewitnesses the most unreliable testimony you can ever get?

Also there are the gunshots something I have some background with and so that is what I've been focusing on ...and what we know about them...
1. They were fired in rapid succession (based on the "Yer so purty" recording)
2. The shot that killed Michael Brown was the one at the top of his head (based on the autopsy report)
3. The shots we at a range beyond point blank (based on the autopsy report lack of residue and lack of penetration)

So a few unknowns (by known I mean we do not have concrete facts)
1. Where did the FIRST shot hit MB? If we know this we can get a notion of Michael Browns position at the time OW opened fire, we can also get a notion of WHERE OW was aiming.
2. How far was MB when he was fired upon? If we know this we could determine a better picture of HOW things occurred, we could also determine if OW was being advanced upon and how much pressure he was under, we could also determine if MB was taking flight at the time.

So now its time for me to put on my hunting cap.....
So we know MB was HIT by 7 bullets...again based on the autopsy..so lets start there...
We know that of those 7, there were 10 to 11 shots fired in rapid succession (within a frame of approx 6 seconds)

Time to put in some theory. If OW was using a Sig .357 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_SIG which is common among LE (its either that or the Glock IME)

So we will give him the lowest powder load....that puts his bullets moving at 1,210ft/sec

6 seconds, 10 bullets, each shot easily closing the distance in under a second...so the first bullet HAD to have hit him within 2 seconds (this is assuming the first shots missed or were an attempt at suppression, I'm going to assume this was not a attempt at suppression and that OW was a lousy shot due to getting messed up prior)

MB was close to the height as Darren Wilson I'd say appox 6ft1 to 6ft2. All I did was open ms paint....cut out OW and rotate him sideways and place him beside MB...he came up shorter, but I gave him a bit more head to toe height due to the fact he was about 3 feet from MB's body in the image.

So now we look again at the gunshots...
Two scenarios....
#1 MB with hands "up in surrender", OW aims Center of Mass. In this case if MB was not moving then we assume the first bullet hits MB and he keeps his hands raised whilst he is repeatedly shot, MB remains standing after the FIRST bullet hits him in the chest area, OW's following shots move upward toward MB's raised arm each shot approx 3 to 4 inches apart. While this seems possible that would mean ignoring the shot to MB's head and face, which would have brought his arms down, ruining the wound pattern's progression from his chest up the arm. Unless MB ignored being shot in the face and head, or OW hit with all of his first salvo and his second salvo hit MB in the face and then the head. However in this case that means MB barely flinched after being shot 4 times, which makes me doubt this.

#2 MB with hands "up in a advancing tackle" again OW aims Center of Mass assuming that his aim is still crap and his target is moving toward him, his first volley grazes MB's arms and his second salvo hits the chest, causing his target to go down, the remainder of the shots moving up (well tis MB's body falling down) leading to the last 2 rounds migrating up to MB's face and chest. In this 6 second scenario the first salvo injures MB, and since his arms are already close to the body, the shot migration seems more realistic but there is one issue I have with this theory as well. I find it unusual that aiming Center of Mass for such a large person as Mb that Ow managed to miss his torso until the second volley, where it is assumed he aimed (the pause in the recording) this raises to big questions in my mind...

1. The pause was OW aiming, which means he had time to think for a moment while he aimed and resumed firing, this would be the most likely time that MB would have surrendered (OK OK OK OK) OW riding on adrenalin and MB possibly still advancing on him, OW fires the fatal shots.

2. Blood spatter analysis, IF MB was advancing in a tackle, the investigation will reveal it, as there would be a distinct spatter pattern on his chest from the gunshots that grazed his arm but missed his chest, as the blood would have spewed across his torso, not phased through his arm. IF MB's hands were up however why is there not blood spatter on the pavement behind where he was standing as at least 2 of the gunshots were more tearing then piercing shots, which would have made a splatter onto the pavement, the spatter atop his head from having his arms raising would be impossible to distinguish however due to the head and facial trauma.

This is of course all IMO based on my own experience as an army medic.
 
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