Hannah Graham: Body Recovered, 18 Oct, 2014 Awaiting Forensic Confirmation #4

Heroine · Oct 21, 2014

http://wtvr.com/2014/10/21/property-where-human-remains-found-in-hannah-graham-search-called-teardrop-hill/

McDaniel said his grandmother called a portion of the property “Tear Drop Hill” after one of her sons was killed there during a wood chopping accident. The nickname is “very fitting” considering the current circumstances, McDaniel said.

Nothing of importance really, but people need to stop dying over there.

bestill · Oct 21, 2014

SteveP said:
This is slightly off-topic, but while we are pondering many things while awaiting confirmation of some of the most important things, now seems as good a time as any to say how much I appreciate everyone here, who takes time out of their own lives and problems to come together and advocate for the many missing and murdered on these threads. To the very many locals from the Charlottesville area who have joined, in hopes that even in some small way, they can help bring justice for Hannah and the others missing from the area, I say thank you. If they could, these missing and murdered would say 'thank you'. I know most of you will see this through to the end, and it is my hope that when that time finally comes, I hope that you will stay for all the many others that are here, and sadly, will be here. I feel like you will, because WS kinda becomes a part of you once you have your eyes opened. Again, thank you for being here. I am proud to be part of this 'family'. JMO

Oh my gosh, you're speaking for me. While my guy watches tv with crime shows - I sit here and read and "sleuth" real life crime. This is all consuming and the pain the families are feeling is unimaginable! I pray we are making some small impact for the innocent victims. It totally becomes personal.

Foxfire · Oct 21, 2014

SteveP said:
I may be completely wrong, but JLM doesn't strike me as the type to commit suicide. I sense that if he loves no one else, he loves himself. He may pretend to be suicidal if he thinks he can get better treatment by doing so. And I also don't see him confessing to any murders. He seems to be the type, imo, who would go to his grave swearing he was set up. JMO

<BBM for Focus>

Respectfully disagree, SteveP.. JM, imo, is a psychopathic sexual predator/serial killer.. Psychopaths, do not think like we do. Nor do they reveal their other selves to anyone but their innocent victims.. Their family, friends, and coworkers only see the image of them that they want to portray; good Jesse..
In his deviant mind, imo, JM's victims are his only remaining assets. With each new asset revealed/discovered, his other self; evil Jesse, moves closer and closer to personal bankruptcy.. There is only one way for JM to prevent this final judgement..
There is precedent for prior serial killers committing suicide to prevent giving up their perceived assets/victims;

http://www.adn.com/article/20140715/untold-story-behind-israel-keyes-jailhouse-suicide
The untold story behind Israel Keyes' jailhouse suicide
Michelle Theriault Boots - July 15, 2014

A correctional officer fired for “negligent inattention” by the AK APD Department of Corrections because he allegedly read a novel while sexual predator/Serial killer Israel Keyes committed a “ritualistic” suicide in a cell 25 feet away was a scapegoat for widespread lax practices

At the time of his death, Keyes was in federal custody but housed at the Anchorage jail on charges of killing Samantha Koenig, an 18-year-old who was kidnapped from the coffee stand where she worked.

In jail, Keyes told FBI agents he’d killed the teenager and seven other people, including victims in Vermont, New York and Washington state.

At the time of his death, FBI agents were interviewing him in hopes of identifying his other victims, an investigation abruptly halted by the suicide.

<sniped - read more>

themom · Oct 21, 2014

Ralph said:
A DNA profile is simply a series of numbers. Typically, there are 13 regions of the DNA tested (called loci). At each of these regions, there is one or two numbers. All of these number make up a DNA profile for a sample. Most cases involve a direct comparison - you develop a DNA profile from evidence, you develop a DNA profile from known standards from victims, suspects, etc. These profiles are compared and you see if they match.

Matching can also occur in the CODIS system, a nationwide system composed of millions of profiles from convicted felons, arrestees as well as evidence profiles from all 50 states, plus a few other labs (Army, FBI,...) Unknown profiles (profiles that do not match a suspect) are entered into CODIS and searched weekly. If one of the these unknown profiles matches up with a felon or arrestee or other case (solved or unsolved), the people who entered the profiles are notified and there is a process that is followed to get the information to the appropriate LE agencies.

Each state also as its own data bank (these feed into the National Data Bank). Because these cases are all in Virginia, any matches were probably made in the state data bank. The exception might be Alexis Murphy. Based on what I remember from Taylor's trial, the FBI did the DNA analysis in that case so any unknown profiles wouldn't be in the Virginia Data Bank but they should be at the National Data Bank. However, CODIS has very strict rules about what can be entered. There must be a solid reason to believe the profile belongs to the perpetrator of the crime - those are only forensic profiles allowed in CODIS. So who knows which profiles in these cases actually ended up in CODIS.

Thanks, Ralph!!!

QueenD · Oct 21, 2014

tlcya said:
WDBJ 7s Nadine Maeser ventured out Tuesday afternoon in search of Matthew's mother to get her side of the story.

She wasnt at her Nelson County home, but neighbors said she hasn't been there for a few days.

After speaking with some of them, we're learning Matthew's run in with the law is affecting those that live across the county line.

Tucked away off Route 29 in Nelson County is a small and peaceful community.

"Ugh my name is Andrew Wells, said neighbor Andrew Wells. They call me AD."

Its a paved road where everyone knows everyone called Wells Lane.

http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/nei...-investigations/29263116#.VEbvuTqSvkI.twitter

This is so OT but some things stand out to me that may not to others,

Wonder why whoever put those outside lights up hung them upside down? Wonder if they even know they are upside down?

I feel sorry for JM Mom.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

otto · Oct 21, 2014

teeandcee said:
BBM. Yes, I speculated about this earlier today. If Morgan was ID'd using dental records I can see JM removing HG's teeth. I honestly think that's a stretch but who can really say. He's such a mixed bag of deceit and carelessness I'm having a tough time getting a handle on what I think he'd do or not do.

I'm still not sure if her teeth would fall out on their own by now...?

I don't know what to think either, but the last thing I would think is that Hannah did not have regular dental care from early childhood onward.

It's possible that she has been identified based on dental records, and that information is being withheld/delayed for some reason. It's possible that her teeth were not intact. I could see Jesse thinking that since Morgan was identified through dental records, he should destroy her teeth. I think he felt very lucky in terms of getting away with rape and murder, and I suspect that he attributed some of that luck to hiding the body until little could be learned from the remains.

One reason I'm confident that Hannah had regular dental care is because she was born in England (moving to the US when she was five) where dental care is free for children. That is, it would have been common practice for her parents to ensure that Hannah had the same care as other children, regardless of where she lived. What I'm saying is that her parents would have thought it was normal for Hannah to have lifelong dental care. That's just an opinion ...

"The NHS provides, among other things, primary care, in-patient care, long-term healthcare, psychiatric care and treatments, ophthalmology, and dentistry. All treatment is free with the exception of certain charges for prescriptions, dentistry and ophthalmology (which themselves are free to children, certain students in full-time education, the elderly, the unemployed and those on low incomes). "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_coverage_by_country

luckyme · Oct 21, 2014

CvilleMother said:
Wells Lane isn't all that close to anchorage farm and is even further from old Lynchburg road. Maybe 20 minutes from Anchorage?

But its in nelson county where Alexis Murphy went missing! moo!

Skigirl · Oct 21, 2014

teeandcee said:
BBM. Yes, I speculated about this earlier today. If Morgan was ID'd using dental records I can see JM removing HG's teeth. I honestly think that's a stretch but who can really say. He's such a mixed bag of deceit and carelessness I'm having a tough time getting a handle on what I think he'd do or not do.

I'm still not sure if her teeth would fall out on their own by now...?

I haven't had a molar (or anything else) pulled since I was a teenager (right before I got braces), but my recollection of it was that even one was a very physical activity for the dentist. It required a lot of strength and tools. Teeth are anchored in there pretty hard unless there is some kind of problem. It would take hours and hours to get all the teeth out of a recently-deceased person's mouth, IMHO.

Soulmagent · Oct 21, 2014

Broadway26 said:
I once read that DNA testing in a criminal case can take around 60 hours. Assuming also that this case was bumped up in priority. If they had any doubt at all, I don't believe they would have called off the search. IMO, LE gathered enough evidence at the scene and are now awaiting DNA results so they can add murder to the existing charges.

They called off the hike for Hannah search.

They are still searching . No one know for sure why.

cthink · Oct 21, 2014

Some folks were asking about the gate so I tried to capture some screenshots from Google Earth (as my first post)... :thinking:

row1:Image1: General aerial view - yellow circle is appox. where that gate is. Image2: shows that gate off the road (red dot is appox. where the driveway into the cottage is, and the white patch on grass, mid way on the left side of the image is driveway into neighbor's property across the street - where that red container is located) . Image3: Better view of the gate.

row2:Image4: driveway into the cottage (main house,31x3, is in the center of the picture). Image5:aerial view from 2002 (better view to see the the dry creek behind the property). image6: another view from 2009.

imo, he probably did not use the gate (too much work) but he probably used the driveway of the cottage, row2 image4 (because the main driveway is in the open), jmo

notes: Google Earth automatically prints image properties (bottom right), and slaps the address (top right). Dates of aerial images are present on images, if apply. All images are property of their respective holders as stated on images. images are on free image host postimg.org * not sure if they serve ads). Black/grey pixels on some images are there because I have a misbehaving video card...

SteveP · Oct 21, 2014

Skigirl said:
I haven't had a molar (or anything else) pulled since I was a teenager (right before I got braces), but my recollection of it was that even one was a very physical activity for the dentist. It required a lot of strength and tools. Teeth are anchored in there pretty hard unless there is some kind of problem. It would take hours and hours to get all the teeth out of a recently-deceased person's mouth, IMHO.

I shudder to even suggest this, but knowing how badly the Fairfax rape victim was beaten, is it far fetched to think he may have beaten Hannah so badly that x-rays alone could no longer be compared to the skull remains?

carbuff · Oct 21, 2014

QueenD said:
This is so OT but some things stand out to me that may not to others,

Wonder why whoever put those outside lights up hung them upside down? Wonder if they even know they are upside down?

I feel sorry for JM Mom.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

There's no room for them right side up under the rafter. Probably bought them on sale without measuring and then had to get creative with ways to make it fit the space.

Who, me, personal experience? Not at all. Why do you ask? :whistle:

Samdonite · Oct 21, 2014

MomnVA said:
http://wtvr.com/2014/10/21/property...in-hannah-graham-search-called-teardrop-hill/

"..McDaniel said his grandmother called a portion of the property Tear Drop Hill after one of her sons was killed there during a wood chopping accident. The nickname is very fitting considering the current circumstances, McDaniel said."

Was someone else killed about there in a car accident too

otto · Oct 21, 2014

Skigirl said:
I haven't had a molar (or anything else) pulled since I was a teenager (right before I got braces), but my recollection of it was that even one was a very physical activity for the dentist. It required a lot of strength and tools. Teeth are anchored in there pretty hard unless there is some kind of problem. It would take hours and hours to get all the teeth out of a recently-deceased person's mouth, IMHO.

It's not that unusual:

"Police said Ryan Alexander Jenkins removed the teeth and fingers of Jasmine Fiore, presumably to impede authorities in their efforts to identify the naked body after it was found stuffed in a suitcase in a California trash bin over the weekend."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/20/cops-reality-tv-contestan_n_263968.html

SolVol · Oct 21, 2014

QueenD said:
This is so OT but some things stand out to me that may not to others,

Wonder why whoever put those outside lights up hung them upside down? Wonder if they even know they are upside down?

I feel sorry for JM Mom.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Perhaps the lights were hung upside down because they are too tall to fit in the space they were mounted right side up.

teeandcee · Oct 21, 2014

Skigirl said:
I haven't had a molar (or anything else) pulled since I was a teenager (right before I got braces), but my recollection of it was that even one was a very physical activity for the dentist. It required a lot of strength and tools. Teeth are anchored in there pretty hard unless there is some kind of problem. It would take hours and hours to get all the teeth out of a recently-deceased person's mouth, IMHO.

I feel awful saying this, but not if he used a hammer or a file to damage them. :sick: The officer said there appeared to be no damage to the bones though so I'm sure I'm wildly off base, especially with the hammer suggestion.

otto · Oct 21, 2014

cthink said:
Some folks were asking about the gate so I tried to capture some screenshots from Google Earth (as my first post)... :thinking:

row1:Image1: General aerial view - yellow circle is appox. where that gate is. Image2: shows that gate off the road (red dot is appox. where the driveway into the cottage is, and the white patch on grass, mid way on the left side of the image is driveway into neighbor's property across the street - where that red container is located) . Image3: Better view of the gate.

row2:Image4: driveway into the cottage (main house,31x3, is in the center of the picture). Image5:aerial view from 2002 (better view to see the the dry creek behind the property). image6: another view from 2009.

imo, he probably did not use the gate (too much work) but he probably used the driveway of the cottage, row2 image4 (because the main driveway is in the open), jmo

notes: Google Earth automatically prints image properties (bottom right), and slaps the address (top right). Dates of aerial images are present on images, if apply. All images are property of their respective holders as stated on images. images are on free image host postimg.org * not sure if they serve ads). Black/grey pixels on some images are there because I have a misbehaving video card...

Great shot of the creek area. It's easy to see that it winds away from the property in the back, and that it doesn't run parallel to the back of the property. In fact, it looks like a trail along the perimeter of the tree line.

TheBunk · Oct 21, 2014

teeandcee said:
I feel awful saying this, but not if he used a hammer or a file to damage them. :sick: The officer said there appeared to be no damage to the bones though so I'm sure I'm wildly off base, especially with the hammer suggestion.

I seriously doubt the SAR LEO got close enough to see as much detail as some people think. Someone with more knowledge can correct me but I'd think protocol would dictate calling in the discovery immediately and then staying a decent distance away from the body to keep from contaminating the crime scene. I'd read more into the LEO's account if he was a forensic guy.

Skigirl · Oct 21, 2014

otto said:
It's not that unusual:

"Police said Ryan Alexander Jenkins removed the teeth and fingers of Jasmine Fiore, presumably to impede authorities in their efforts to identify the naked body after it was found stuffed in a suitcase in a California trash bin over the weekend."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/20/cops-reality-tv-contestan_n_263968.html

Ugh, well, I would still argue that it's unusual, but I concede that it's not without precedent. Still, it seems like it would take a while. I hope they weren't removed, in any case.

Phoebeb · Oct 21, 2014

trixandhoney said:
For some reason when I try to quote posts it keeps quoting a mod about not posting personal info re: family members.

But anyway, to the poster who said they were going into JM's house on Fox News - what did it look like?

It was JM's apartment he lived in at Hellion (?lol, can't remember complex name?)- It was nearly empty, average looking apartment, new tenant was there but not on camera.

Hannah Graham: Body Recovered, 18 Oct, 2014 **Awaiting Forensic Confirmation** #4

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Hannah Graham: Body Recovered, 18 Oct, 2014 Awaiting Forensic Confirmation #4