Possible Victim: Fire Island Jane Doe, UP9098, found Davis Park Apr 1996 & Ocean Parkway Apr 2011 - Karen Vergata

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It has been suggested that these remains may have found their way to fire Island due to the Noreaster conditions during January 1996...the only problem with this thought is the legs were contained in plastic bags...mmm..and found at easter...still with enough flesh and detail (nail polish).......could the legs at Fire Island be this serial killers first mistake??????
 
Some time ago I was able to nail down what I believe to be the precise location of where the skull of this victim was located. I used some of the footage from the news chopper flying overhead showing LE scouring a site close to the road with LE vehicles parked nearby and investigators milling around. I think it might have been from one of the documentaries.
I cross referenced marks on the road, trees nearby and some type of utility box across the road as reference, you can also clearly see in 2012 imagery what I think is the cleared out area they were searching.

zoomed out
9098-2.jpg

2012 imagery zoomed in
9098.jpg

what it looks like presently
9098-3.jpg

street view
https://goo.gl/maps/Vp2OH
 
Some time ago I was able to nail down what I believe to be the precise location of where the skull of this victim was located. I used some of the footage from the news chopper flying overhead showing LE scouring a site close to the road with LE vehicles parked nearby and investigators milling around. I think it might have been from one of the documentaries.
I cross referenced marks on the road, trees nearby and some type of utility box across the road as reference, you can also clearly see in 2012 imagery what I think is the cleared out area they were searching.

zoomed out
View attachment 76718

2012 imagery zoomed in
View attachment 76719

what it looks like presently
View attachment 76720

street view
https://goo.gl/maps/Vp2OH
 

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LR1 said:
Some time ago I was able to nail down what I believe to be the precise location of where the skull of this victim was located. I used some of the footage from the news chopper flying overhead showing LE scouring a site close to the road with LE vehicles parked nearby and investigators milling around. I think it might have been from one of the documentaries.
I cross referenced marks on the road, trees nearby and some type of utility box across the road as reference, you can also clearly see in 2012 imagery what I think is the cleared out area they were searching.

zoomed out
View attachment 76718

2012 imagery zoomed in
View attachment 76719

what it looks like presently
View attachment 76720

street view
https://goo.gl/maps/Vp2OH
Click to expand...

If that's the location -- and I think you're right -- then it is entirely possible that the remains in the plastic bags washed away in the storms of January 1996 and were washed along the coast. Besides heavy snow, the storm brought severe flooding. The Gilgo Beach area was very hard hit.

"Along the south shore of Long Island, a 50-year old Casino bar and restaurant in Davis Park was swept into the Atlantic while Gilgo Beach lost 50 to 75 feet of sand." http://m.weatherbug.com/weather-news/weather-reports/14453
 
If that's the location -- and I think you're right -- then it is entirely possible that the remains in the plastic bags washed away in the storms of January 1996 and were washed along the coast. Besides heavy snow, the storm brought severe flooding. The Gilgo Beach area was very hard hit.

"Along the south shore of Long Island, a 50-year old Casino bar and restaurant in Davis Park was swept into the Atlantic while Gilgo Beach lost 50 to 75 feet of sand." http://m.weatherbug.com/weather-news/weather-reports/14453
 
carbuff said:
If that's the location -- and I think you're right -- then it is entirely possible that the remains in the plastic bags washed away in the storms of January 1996 and were washed along the coast. Besides heavy snow, the storm brought severe flooding. The Gilgo Beach area was very hard hit.

"Along the south shore of Long Island, a 50-year old Casino bar and restaurant in Davis Park was swept into the Atlantic while Gilgo Beach lost 50 to 75 feet of sand." http://m.weatherbug.com/weather-news/weather-reports/14453
Click to expand...

Completely plausible....

but my doubt stems from the fact: If we assume the bag containing the legs, floated away during those storms and found their way to fire Island.......wouldn't it be reasonable to assume the skull, which going by the murderers dump pattern..... would have been very close if not along side them... and similarly been dislodged, floated to another location... yet the skull doesn't appeared to have moved from it's original (sticking with the pattern) site some meters from the brush along the roadway.

Also thanks to Bessie posting up Shadowraiths map....I had completely forgotten about the jaw bone found @ Ho Hum Beach - It would be great if we knew if these remains matched any of the victims found on ocean parkway.

LR1 your photos are great and I think you are right about the location of the find.... If correct that would put the remains only metres from a drain off ditch - which feeds back into the ocean side...that is another reason I am suspicious that the legs didn't float their way to fire Island. I have tried to find a topographical map for that particular area...but as yet no luck.
 
Danse_Macabre said:
I'm reposting here:

Hi Rachel & Josh here, some of you may have read we are partnering with Tricia & Websleuths on a docu-series covering 5 unsolved serial killer cases. LISK is one of them and we would like to work with websleuthers in helping to identify the Jane, John, and Toddler Does connected to the case. We definitely understand there's been a lot of time and energy put into this already by websleuthers and the community, we're hoping to inject new energy into identifying. We will have a access to wide television audience who in additional can hopefully help


I'll be posting to the threads for the other identified, please don't be shy... contact us. We are looking for some lead websleuthers to work with us as well, please reach out. Already we've heard from a lot of you on LISK and other cases. It takes a village!

Best,
Rachel & Josh
Click to expand...

I haven't been here on the LISK case as long as some other's... but do recall reading a thread where many missing person's names were put forward in relation to the Jane Does. I'm sorry I don't recall the exact thread...but quite a few names were mentioned...maybe if a member who has been on this particular case can recall they can direct you....

Also I'm not 100% sure but I think there is another section on Websleuths that members work solely on trying to identify Jane/John Does...
 
Puggle said:
Completely plausible....

but my doubt stems from the fact: If we assume the bag containing the legs, floated away during those storms and found their way to fire Island.......wouldn't it be reasonable to assume the skull, which going by the murderers dump pattern..... would have been very close if not along side them... and similarly been dislodged, floated to another location... yet the skull doesn't appeared to have moved from it's original (sticking with the pattern) site some meters from the brush along the roadway.

Also thanks to Bessie posting up Shadowraiths map....I had completely forgotten about the jaw bone found @ Ho Hum Beach - It would be great if we knew if these remains matched any of the victims found on ocean parkway.

LR1 your photos are great and I think you are right about the location of the find.... If correct that would put the remains only metres from a drain off ditch - which feeds back into the ocean side...that is another reason I am suspicious that the legs didn't float their way to fire Island. I have tried to find a topographical map for that particular area...but as yet no luck.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. The skull is heavier, and the bag could have served as a sort of water-sail to lift the legs.

I agree it doesn't seem that likely, and while the killer's main pattern seems to have been to leave everything close together, others were widely separated. Manorville Jane Doe, for instance. So I suspect that's just where he left them.
 
carbuff said:
Not necessarily. The skull is heavier, and the bag could have served as a sort of water-sail to lift the legs.

I agree it doesn't seem that likely, and while the killer's main pattern seems to have been to leave everything close together, others were widely separated. Manorville Jane Doe, for instance. So I suspect that's just where he left them.
Click to expand...

ITA carbuff. I think the bags would have provided the legs additional buoyancy, and therefore I find it highly unlikely that both legs would have travelled in unison in order to have both been found in Davis Park on the same day.
 
sillybilly said:
ITA carbuff. I think the bags would have provided the legs additional buoyancy, and therefore I find it highly unlikely that both legs would have travelled in unison in order to have both been found in Davis Park on the same day.
Click to expand...

Both legs were contained in the one bag.
 
red nail polish is a very good detail-----I wonder at the condition of the pedi and her feet/toes-----I ask b/c I am thinking of a professional job versus an at home pedi---and further question as to any wear on her toenails----thinking of foot wear----sandals/flipflops versus closed toed shoes----may help narrow down the time of year she went missing.

Fire Island is a pretty small community------would someone look to dump a body there? I lean toward our lady being a victim of foul play and storms causing her remains to be moved.
 
I'm sure that the authorities have looked at missing women from all over the Northeastern U.S., but I wonder if they have spent much time considering Canadian missing women, particularly those missing from the eastern provinces.

Here is a woman missing from Saint Jerome Quebec, who might be worthy of consideration in comparison to Fire Island Jane Doe:

Chantal Picotte

833b47e6-a157-4d2f-9196-89f3ae6a8fa5.jpg
0c0f9d46-a09c-459d-9b8f-0c7d755a2d80.jpg


http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1451dfqc.html

She was last seen about 5 months before the discovery of her legs.

We don't have a direct straight-on photo of her to overlay with the facial reconstruction, but just from eyeballing the comparison, their facial shapes are very similar.

We don't have a height estimate for Fire Island Jane Doe. Chantal was quite short at about 4 feet 10 inches

DoeNetwork doesn't provide much on the circumstances of her disappearance, but the Canadian MP site provides the following:

On November 24th 1995, Chantal PICOTTE’s mother reports to the police station to inform them of the disappearance of her daughter. She states that Wednesday, November 22nd in the evening, her daughter called asking her to come see her. The next day, Mrs. Picotte mother went to her daughter’s residence, but her daughter wasn’t there. She called her several times but in vain. Chantal PICOTTE was seen for the last time in the evening of Wednesday, November 22nd 1995 at a Saint-Jérôme’s bar.
Click to expand...

https://secure.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/missi...7W2mj2!2053861365?case=2012020117&id=&lang=en

Nothing in that narrative that would seem inconsistent with the possibility that she might have taken a trip to the New York area with someone whom she met at the bar.
 
There was one article about the legs being found in the Long Island Advocate in 1996. Between that time and the time the skull was linked to the them, has anyone found another article talking just about the legs?

Thanks,
Rachel
 
I created this animated GIF to show how the recon aligns to Chantal Picotte's face.

Chantal's face is turned slightly to her right, so the overlay isn't perfectly compatible with the recon, but it gives a pretty good look at how similar her facial shape is to the recon.

Fire%20Island%20JD%20and%20Chantal%20Picotte%202a.gif



CarlK90245 said:
I'm sure that the authorities have looked at missing women from all over the Northeastern U.S., but I wonder if they have spent much time considering Canadian missing women, particularly those missing from the eastern provinces.

Here is a woman missing from Saint Jerome Quebec, who might be worthy of consideration in comparison to Fire Island Jane Doe:

Chantal Picotte

833b47e6-a157-4d2f-9196-89f3ae6a8fa5.jpg
0c0f9d46-a09c-459d-9b8f-0c7d755a2d80.jpg


http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1451dfqc.html

She was last seen about 5 months before the discovery of her legs.

We don't have a direct straight-on photo of her to overlay with the facial reconstruction, but just from eyeballing the comparison, their facial shapes are very similar.

We don't have a height estimate for Fire Island Jane Doe. Chantal was quite short at about 4 feet 10 inches

DoeNetwork doesn't provide much on the circumstances of her disappearance, but the Canadian MP site provides the following:



https://secure.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/missi...7W2mj2!2053861365?case=2012020117&id=&lang=en

Nothing in that narrative that would seem inconsistent with the possibility that she might have taken a trip to the New York area with someone whom she met at the bar.
Click to expand...
 
Just a thought and please forgive the morbidity..............is it possible that body parts were held (for what ever reason.....sick purposes.....trophies....unable to dispose of at time) and then discarded ??????
 
CarlK90245 said:
I created this animated GIF to show how the recon aligns to Chantal Picotte's face.

Chantal's face is turned slightly to her right, so the overlay isn't perfectly compatible with the recon, but it gives a pretty good look at how similar her facial shape is to the recon.
Click to expand...

They do look similar to me, it would be nice if we could find out if Chantal had any surgery to her left ankle, that's our best clue with this one. I know its almost impossible to tell the age from a recon, I've thought she looked mid twenties at best.

Another long shot that I had found some time ago, and its strictly on looks, the circumstances and time frame most likely rules her out but the Markovich girl from Blairsville, Pennsylvania, missing since 1987 to me has a similar look in some of her photos.
 
I am not sure where I should post this comment. It really could apply to all the LISK victims. However I figured to start where the victims seem to start. She is the earliest known victim. As her legs were found in 1996 and her skull showing up along the long island beaches in 2011.

I just want to mention the name John Bittrolff. Has anyone heard of this Carpenter from Manorville, NY? He was arrested in July 2014 for the 20 year old murders of two maybe three prostitutes, found near Manorville, NY in 1993-94.

I find it interesting that he has been ruled out so quickly as the LISK. DNA links him to two of the 93-94 murders. One in Nov 93 and the other in Jan 94. If the third is linked to him, She was killed in Dec 93. That's one victim a month. Do you really think he would just stop? That's hard to believe, especially since he got away with those for so long?

He was arrested in 90 for assault. So maybe that's when he graduated to killing. To avoid further arrest. Then the first murder victims were able to be identified, so he graduated to mutilating the bodies making it harder for the police. As a carpenter I would imagine he has a wide variety of tools that he could use to help him dismember some of the bodies. A box cutter razor blade would have been a handy mans tool. Thinking of the mutilated tattoo of Jessica Taylor. Whose Torso was found in 2003 in Manorville, NY.

Below is an article that makes some links between one of the victims Rita Tangredi of John Bittrolff and a victim of the LISK. Tangredi's Daughter was a close friend to Melissa Barthelemy who was the first victim found along Ocean Parkway. Remember Melissa's sister was the one who received those taunting calls from who is believed to be the murderer. This article also finds a connection between one of the 4 Atlantic City Golden Key Motel murders of 2006. Molly Jean Dilts Found in NJ was Facebook friends with Amber Lynn Costello, another of the LISK victims.
http://pix11.com/2015/03/17/from-gilgo-beach-to-atlantic-city-a-serial-killer-by-the-sea/

You think LE was to quick to rule him out? I think that would need a lot more investigating and maybe interrogating?
 
MysticJynx said:
I am not sure where I should post this comment. It really could apply to all the LISK victims. However I figured to start where the victims seem to start. She is the earliest known victim. As her legs were found in 1996 and her skull showing up along the long island beaches in 2011.

I just want to mention the name John Bittrolff. Has anyone heard of this Carpenter from Manorville, NY? He was arrested in July 2014 for the 20 year old murders of two maybe three prostitutes, found near Manorville, NY in 1993-94.

I find it interesting that he has been ruled out so quickly as the LISK. DNA links him to two of the 93-94 murders. One in Nov 93 and the other in Jan 94. If the third is linked to him, She was killed in Dec 93. That's one victim a month. Do you really think he would just stop? That's hard to believe, especially since he got away with those for so long?

He was arrested in 90 for assault. So maybe that's when he graduated to killing. To avoid further arrest. Then the first murder victims were able to be identified, so he graduated to mutilating the bodies making it harder for the police. As a carpenter I would imagine he has a wide variety of tools that he could use to help him dismember some of the bodies. A box cutter razor blade would have been a handy mans tool. Thinking of the mutilated tattoo of Jessica Taylor. Whose Torso was found in 2003 in Manorville, NY.

Below is an article that makes some links between one of the victims Rita Tangredi of John Bittrolff and a victim of the LISK. Tangredi's Daughter was a close friend to Melissa Barthelemy who was the first victim found along Ocean Parkway. Remember Melissa's sister was the one who received those taunting calls from who is believed to be the murderer. This article also finds a connection between one of the 4 Atlantic City Golden Key Motel murders of 2006. Molly Jean Dilts Found in NJ was Facebook friends with Amber Lynn Costello, another of the LISK victims.
http://pix11.com/2015/03/17/from-gilgo-beach-to-atlantic-city-a-serial-killer-by-the-sea/

You think LE was to quick to rule him out? I think that would need a lot more investigating and maybe interrogating?
Click to expand...

Not sure what to say.....but something weird is definitely going on....can't even find a quick link here to all the many posts made by members over the years..???? why is it so hard to find our forum posts on LISK??? or is it just me?....I used to be able to go to the parking lot and click and simply find multiple posts and threads on LISK...but now they all seem to have vanished....lucky to have found this thread it seems...???....what's going on??.....Bittrollff is a big question mark for me also....along with some deleted aerial pics of his brother's of ocean parkway from his (his brothers) facebook account soon after John was arrested ...why was his brother taking aerial shots specifically of the ocean beach parkway from a seaplane - that's all he uploaded and posted on FB....only to delete them once his brother was arrested???
 
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