NY - 8 Die in Crash on Taconic State Parkway #3

RedHeadLouLou said:

This case has always made me obsessed. I've read everything. This thread, other articles. Just haunts me all the time.

I think Diane Schuler killed herself and those kids. It's so hard to say that, but I really believe it. She went past the crash site, turned around, got on the wrong way, which was a very difficult to get on (it wasn't a straight right up the exit ramp) and then she crashed.

I guess what haunts me the most is those poor kids. They must have been terrified. Screaming. Crying. Oh it just makes me sick.

ETA: We don't know that the bottle was up front from the beginning. She could have gotten it at any point in time while the car was stopped. I think it was her liquid courage. And the weed was her relaxation let's do this.

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Redhead, have you seen the video taken from a dashboard of a car entering the highway on the off-ramp (i.e., as DS did)? The curve of opposing traffic (i.e., traffic going back the way DS wanted to go) makes it look quite easy to make a mistake. And there was no barrier, such as traffic spikes, to impede a car getting on at the exit ramp.

Of course, DS would have had to miss the signs saying "WRONG WAY", but several witnesses said she seemed to be driving with so intense and rigid a focus, she would have had a sort of "tunnel vision".

You may not agree, of course. But after seeing that video, I wasn't at all surprised that a drunk driver would confuse the exit for the on-ramp. It's interesting that she stuck to the (ongoing, righthand) fast lane, which would have been correct if she were on a 2-way road.

Nova said:

Redhead, have you seen the video taken from a dashboard of a car entering the highway on the off-ramp (i.e., as DS did)? The curve of opposing traffic (i.e., traffic going back the way DS wanted to go) makes it look quite easy to make a mistake. And there was no barrier, such as traffic spikes, to impede a car getting on at the exit ramp.

Of course, DS would have had to miss the signs saying "WRONG WAY", but several witnesses said she seemed to be driving with so intense and rigid a focus, she would have had a sort of "tunnel vision".

You may not agree, of course. But after seeing that video, I wasn't at all surprised that a drunk driver would confuse the exit for the on-ramp. It's interesting that she stuck to the (ongoing, righthand) fast lane, which would have been correct if she were on a 2-way road.

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I've never seen traffic spikes on an exit ramp to keep wrong way drivers from going very far on them. Is this common elsewhere?

If she was as drunk as they say she was, I do in fact think it would be very hard for her to drive a stick straight path and that curve.

RedHeadLouLou said:

If she was as drunk as they say she was, I do in fact think it would be very hard for her to drive a stick straight path and that curve.

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That's where her tolerance level may indicate a history of drinking. At her blood alcohol level, most people wouldn't have been able to drive without significant impairment. That she was may indicate she was used to a fairly high level of alcohol in her blood.

Nova said:

Redhead, have you seen the video taken from a dashboard of a car entering the highway on the off-ramp (i.e., as DS did)? The curve of opposing traffic (i.e., traffic going back the way DS wanted to go) makes it look quite easy to make a mistake. And there was no barrier, such as traffic spikes, to impede a car getting on at the exit ramp.

Of course, DS would have had to miss the signs saying "WRONG WAY", but several witnesses said she seemed to be driving with so intense and rigid a focus, she would have had a sort of "tunnel vision".

You may not agree, of course. But after seeing that video, I wasn't at all surprised that a drunk driver would confuse the exit for the on-ramp. It's interesting that she stuck to the (ongoing, righthand) fast lane, which would have been correct if she were on a 2-way road.

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Re BBM

There are a few roads where I live that are just like this and scare me. I always have to do a double-take when I get on this certain highway to be sure I am going the right way.

The road near me is a busy interesection that runs under a highway and when you turn onto the road the exit ramp is right there and if you are not thinking about it you could easily turn onto it thinking you are on an entrance ramp rather than exit ramp. They have the WRONGWAY signs which does help but I think more should be there because if you miss that sign you have nothing to tell you you are going the totally wrong way.

Trying to think what more they could do. The spikes is a good idea. Maybe some sort of spikes that would only come up if you are going wrong way.
Or blinking red light that only drivers going wrong way would see.

OT
This reminds of a long time ago story that made the news of an elderly person that was going the wrong way on a road and killed someone. I dont have link but I think I remember it. I may not have all the facts quite right but went something like this.

The witnesses said she was driving in wrong direction and was like on a mission.
People were honking at her and trying to get her to stop and she was oblivious.
She hit someone head on with just quarter edge of her car and killed them but she was fine.

When they interviewed her she said she loves to drive and doesnt want her license taken away. Yet her relatives were all telling LE to take her license as she has wrecked numerous times due to age.

It made me want to maybe have a new driver law to make certain people over a certain age to have to take driving test every 3 years or so. I would be willing to do that for safety reasons.

But what age would we start at? Getting senile is such a random age thing. That would be the tough part to decide on what age to start requireing tests.

Anyway. Sorry OT but kind of related.
This story here on this thread is so sad. I remember it well in the news.

Hatfield-----I love your idea----always hope that drug stores and doctors will alert both DMV and LE to what meds a person is on-----you cant rely on someone to make a good decision about themselves--thinking of my inlaws with dementia and drug abuse and physical limits----they refused . My Dad with Parkinsons had one scary event on the highway--delayed reaction to braking b/c of the Parkinsons and told Mom Cawfee that he was done driving.

MzOpinion-----your post at # 37---they never did ( I would love to know the content of the convo). I read the book---it was ok, readable. Jacki spoke alot of her mental health issues and gave an interesting tidbit about Danny---wont spoil it just in case you want to read the book.

I love that this is still being discussed-----always hoping that a followup doc will come b/c I thought the first was very good. Hoping more people will speak out now like her co-workers and more from her childhood friends.

And wondered as well if her mother would come forward as well and talk.

hot cawfee said:

Hatfield-----I love your idea----always hope that drug stores and doctors will alert both DMV and LE to what meds a person is on-----you cant rely on someone to make a good decision about themselves--thinking of my inlaws with dementia and drug abuse and physical limits----they refused . My Dad with Parkinsons had one scary event on the highway--delayed reaction to braking b/c of the Parkinsons and told Mom Cawfee that he was done driving.

MzOpinion-----your post at # 37---they never did ( I would love to know the content of the convo). I read the book---it was ok, readable. Jacki spoke alot of her mental health issues and gave an interesting tidbit about Danny---wont spoil it just in case you want to read the book.

I love that this is still being discussed-----always hoping that a followup doc will come b/c I thought the first was very good. Hoping more people will speak out now like her co-workers and more from her childhood friends.

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Thanks Hot Cawfee.

Kudos to your Dad for doing the right thing for his own safety as well as others. My Dad did the same thing and had a similar incident which made him stop driving. My Mom does all the driving now.

Nova said:

Redhead, have you seen the video taken from a dashboard of a car entering the highway on the off-ramp (i.e., as DS did)? The curve of opposing traffic (i.e., traffic going back the way DS wanted to go) makes it look quite easy to make a mistake. And there was no barrier, such as traffic spikes, to impede a car getting on at the exit ramp.

Of course, DS would have had to miss the signs saying "WRONG WAY", but several witnesses said she seemed to be driving with so intense and rigid a focus, she would have had a sort of "tunnel vision".

You may not agree, of course. But after seeing that video, I wasn't at all surprised that a drunk driver would confuse the exit for the on-ramp. It's interesting that she stuck to the (ongoing, righthand) fast lane, which would have been correct if she were on a 2-way road.

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Getting on the highway from the wrong way happens on occasion in Milwaukee, WI. I hear about it on the news sometimes. Every time I have ever heard of, the driver is always legally drunk, and most of the time far beyond legal.
I think a sober person would figure out really quickly that there is something wrong when they start to enter the highway from the left. Other than major interchanges, in big cities, you enter from the right and don't have to cross traffic lanes to get to the right/slower lane. Plus, it's not like the interchanges occur as a surprise. If you are merging into traffic from the left in an interchange, you have already been on the highway going in the right direction for some time... in my experience anyway.

hot cawfee said:

Hatfield-----I love your idea----always hope that drug stores and doctors will alert both DMV and LE to what meds a person is on-----you cant rely on someone to make a good decision about themselves--thinking of my inlaws with dementia and drug abuse and physical limits----they refused . My Dad with Parkinsons had one scary event on the highway--delayed reaction to braking b/c of the Parkinsons and told Mom Cawfee that he was done driving...

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sbm bbm

BBM, wonderful if & when it revokes licenses of unsafe drivers and keeps them from being on the road. Some state laws address this. Using info from Missouri law, as example (not NY law, as I've had some interface w MO, advice from elder law atty; phone calls & letters w MO DMV employees, re older driver w AD).
__________________________________________________________________________
Mo Rev Stat, Section 302.291.1: (A.L. 2013 S.B. 282) "Incompetent or unqualified operators, director may require examination, when--report permitted, when, by whom, contents, immunity from liability--confidentiality, penalty--rules--appeal--reinstatement."

"302.291. 1. The director, having good cause to believe that an operator is incompetent or unqualified to retain his or her license, after giving ten days' notice in writing by certified mail directed to such person's present known address, may require the person to submit to an examination as prescribed by the director. Upon conclusion of the examination, the director may allow the person to retain his or her license, may suspend, deny or revoke the person's license, or may issue the person a license subject to restrictions as provided in section 302.301. If an examination indicates a condition that potentially impairs safe driving, the director, in addition to action with respect to the license, may require the person to submit to further periodic examinations. The refusal or neglect of the person to submit to an examination within thirty days after the date of such notice shall be grounds for suspension, denial or revocation of the person's license by the director, an associate circuit or circuit court. Notice of any suspension, denial, revocation or other restriction shall be provided by certified mail. As used in this section, the term "denial" means the act of not licensing a person who is currently suspended, revoked or otherwise not licensed to operate a motor vehicle. Denial may also include the act of withdrawing a previously issued license.
2. The examination provided for in subsection 1 of this section may include, but is not limited to, a written test and tests of driving skills, vision, highway sign recognition and, if appropriate, a physical and/or mental examination as provided in section 302.173.
3. The director shall have good cause to believe that an operator is incompetent or unqualified to retain such person's license on the basis of, but not limited to, a report by:
(1) Any certified peace officer;
(2) Any physician, physical therapist or occupational therapist licensed pursuant to chapter 334; any chiropractic physician licensed pursuant to chapter 331; any registered nurse licensed pursuant to chapter 335; any psychologist, social worker or professional counselor licensed pursuant to chapter 337; any optometrist licensed pursuant to chapter 336; any emergency medical technician licensed pursuant to chapter 190; or
(3) Any member of the operator's family within three degrees of consanguinity, or the operator's spouse, who has reached the age of eighteen, except that no person may report the same family member pursuant to this section more than one time during a twelve-month period. The report must state that the person reasonably and in good faith believes the driver cannot safely operate a motor vehicle and must be based upon personal observation or physical evidence which shall be described in the report, or the report shall be based upon an investigation by a law enforcement officer. The report shall be a written declaration in the form prescribed by the department of revenue and shall contain the name, address, telephone number, and signature of the person making the report.
4. Any physician, physical therapist or occupational therapist licensed pursuant to chapter 334, any chiropractor licensed pursuant to chapter 331, any registered nurse licensed pursuant to chapter 335, any psychologist, social worker or professional counselor licensed pursuant to chapter 337, or any optometrist licensed pursuant to chapter 336, or any emergency medical technician licensed pursuant to chapter 190 may report to the department any patient diagnosed or assessed as having a disorder or condition that may prevent such person from safely operating a motor vehicle. Such report shall state the diagnosis or assessment and whether the condition is permanent or temporary. The existence of a physician-patient relationship shall not prevent the making of a report by such medical professionals.
(5. -11 I'm omitting)

MO. H/C providers use "Physicians Statement (form 1528) to report unsafe drivers. http://dor.mo.gov/faq/drivers/doctor.php#10
The Physician's Statement (Form 1528) is available on the Department of Revenue website.
BTW -re ^ MO law, I can see why pharmacist is not on list. A pharmacist knows Patient X is on Rx's A, B, C, & D at these dosages, and what these drugs are normally prescribed for, but lack other info re Pt. e.g., does Patient hold a driver's license? If so, ever drives? If so, taking meds as prescribed?

MO. non-H/C providers reporting to DMV use Driver Condition Report form: http://dor.mo.gov/faq/drivers/unsafe.php#1
Driver Condition Report (Form 4319). http://dor.mo.gov/faq/drivers/unsafe.php

________________________________________________________
I wonder what wd have happened if a fam member had approached Diane's doctor w concerns, and doctor submitted report to DMV (assuming law was similar to MO.) Wd DMV had ordered her to re-test, to take pen & paper test re st driving laws? Repeat road tests? IDK. Would she have passed? Failed? IDK.

Tragic result. Wish something, anything could have prevented.

HIPAA issues? Someone familiar w HIPAA may enlighten us re other aspects of this. Anyone?

Interesting article, including background, ethical considerations for dr's.
"Reporting by Physicians of Impaired Drivers and Potentially Impaired Drivers"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1495589/#b35 from 2000.

From National Highway Transportation Safety Administration:
Physician's Guide to Assessing and Counseling Older ...
www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/olddrive/olderdriversbook/pages/...... specific guidelines and forms that can be obtained through the DMV. Physician Reporting Laws: Other states require physicians to report ‘unsafe’ drivers to ...

NY state form for physician & specified H/C provider use.
[PDF] PHYSICIAN’S REPORTING FORM - New York State DMVdmv.ny.gov/forms/ds6.pdf

Wonder if ^it^ would have made a diff in Diane's case. IDK.

That is interesting !! My late mil's doctor would ask her "Who drove you/came with you today?" whever she had an appointment. Either Mr C or I were with her most times, but there were times she went alone to appointments we knew nothing of. Miraculously she did not kill anyone.

I always wondered what the phone call to her brother said. I always wondered if she had told him she was done, couldn't handle life anymore, wanted to die, etc. And why it took him so long to call the police.

I've always been intrigued by that call, too. Sure wish we knew what was said as I bet ithat conversation would explain a lot.

I agree.......would love to know what Diane said to her brother and what his daughter said as well along with all the background noise in the car.

I understand the thinking that more laws or more use of laws to revoke licenses is an answer and in some cases it is. I live in a town of about 16,000 with a 6 day a week newspaper. We get all the news to fill the paper that often. So we see how often people are arrested driving a vehicle when their license has been revoked 2,5, 10 or more years. The people around the person have to know and not hand over keys or leave keys out where anyone can grab them.

wendybtn said:

I understand the thinking that more laws or more use of laws to revoke licenses is an answer and in some cases it is. I live in a town of about 16,000 with a 6 day a week newspaper. We get all the news to fill the paper that often. So we see how often people are arrested driving a vehicle when their license has been revoked 2,5, 10 or more years. The people around the person have to know and not hand over keys or leave keys out where anyone can grab them.

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Absolutely right, DMV's revocation of a driver's license does not necessarily keep that person from driving w/out license.

Back to Diane, IDT I ever heard/read whether she had previous traffic offenses, DUI/DWI crim chg, or MV accidents.
Re statute, unlikely imo that her husband ('Denial is my middle name') would ever have reported her to DMV as unsafe driver, or to her doc, to prompt him to send report to DMV.
Did Diane's other relatives - blood or in-law - or friends, coworkers, et al, know or suspect her to DWI. IDK.
^That^ all relates to Diane's behavior over time.

On that morning - one occasion - could someone who saw her after departing campground have seen something and done something which definitely would have changed outcome? Very diff for me to conclude that. IDK.

In speculating on what might have prevented this tragedy, IDK what could have.
JM2cts, could be all wrong.

RedHeadLouLou said:

I always wondered what the phone call to her brother said. I always wondered if she had told him she was done, couldn't handle life anymore, wanted to die, etc. And why it took him so long to call the police.

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In Jackie Hance's book, she talks about the moment her daughter called her and said "there's something wrong with Aunt Diane." She was crying. Jackie asked to speak with Diane. According to this account, Diane wasn't making any sense. Then Diane hung up on Jackie. At this moment, her husband (Diane's brother) walked in the door. She told him, "your sister just called. She sounds drunk." Warren responded "Impossible." He immediately called Diane. After she told him she was having vision problems and didn't feel well, he told her to stay put. He then asked to speak with his daughter and got her to tell him where she thought they were based on the signs she could see. When he hung up, he told his wife to call the police while he drove to find his sister and the children. She immediately called the police. There was confusion about which jurisdiction was responsible since they didn't know exactly where Diane was parked. Friends of Jackie also rallied and at least one or more of them also tried to get LE involved.

I don't know why everyone always believes there was a lag in calling police. Jackie Hance's three daughters were in that van and at that moment I believe her concern for her daughters was her first priority. Since she now believed something was medically wrong with Diane as opposed to substance abuse, her calls to LE were made first and foremost with her daughters' safety in mind, and secondly, to get her sister in law the medical intervention she believed she needed.

I just watched the documentary and I was wondering if anyone had ever looked in to methanol poisoning? This case sounds like textbook alcohol poisoning, but I'm not sure it was ethanol. Methanol has the effect of, among other things, causing vision disruption or loss, as well as abdominal pain and etc. Here is a bit of information: http://cjasn.asnjournals.org/content/3/1/208.full
People who get in to late stage methanol poisoning are reported as being very disoriented. People here may be familiar with the tragic Rodney Marks case.

If the Medical Examiner wasn't looking for methanol specifically, they could have run one of a few simple tests that would have returned general measurements (anion gap, etc) that may have been interpreted as a positive signal for alcohol in general, or ethanol when it was actually methanol. I am not sure which tests are run or whether they consider the possibility of significant concentrations of non-ethanol alcohols. This would account for the motorists' reports that she seemed to be focusing hard and was potentially sick at a rest stop, the son's explanation that his mommy couldn't see, and her general behavior that points to a lack of clear vision or orientation (leaving her phone, driving in such a way that others noticed her distress including the children, entering the off ramp). I think it would be important to establish that the ethanol measurements were in fact ethanol specifically.

Edited to add: Methanol poisoning isn't that uncommon. Accidentally drinking something contaminated with cleaning solution, drinking small batch beers or other liquors (especially from abroad) or drinking moonshine/home brew can result in methanol poisoning. This might also account for the incredibly high supposed ethanol concentration?