Sheila and Katherine Lyon-sisters missing since 1975 - #2

Agreed...people involved in this case are close to releasing crucial info that I think the investigators speculate about but need corroboration

mrssunshine said:

No DNA or remains have been announced as found. I think this press conference was sending a message to those who are still involved and holding back secrets or have lied. That these police are not letting up.

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Assuming the reason no DNA or remains has been announced is because none has been found, Lloyd, if guilty, is one lucky idiot.

If the bodies were burned at a very high temperature, as when cremated, that would have destroyed any evidence.

It's also possible that a fire did not totally destroy the body, leaving major bones, and Lloyed disposed of these some other way since even an idiot would not leave human bones laying around the yard.

In any case, burning the bodies does seem like a very good plan for someone as dumb as Lloyd, making me think he had advice from someone else on how to dispose of evidence. The part about getting help from his cousin, now a potential witness to burn the duffel bags and asking his aunt to clean bloody cloths is the level of stupidity I would expect from Lloyd.

siriunsun said:

Virginia has the death penalty and actually uses it.

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Yeah, they have the quickest turnaround when it comes to moving on from conviction to execution. I think it only took a little over 5 years for John Allen Muhammad (DC Sniper case) to go from sentencing to exhausting his appeals to execution.

steveP120 said:

Assuming the reason no DNA or remains has been announced is because none has been found, Lloyd, if guilty, is one lucky idiot.

If the bodies were burned at a very high temperature, as when cremated, that would have destroyed any evidence.

It's also possible that a fire did not totally destroy the body, leaving major bones, and Lloyed disposed of these some other way since even an idiot would not leave human bones laying around the yard.

In any case, burning the bodies does seem like a very good plan for someone as dumb as Lloyd, making me think he had advice from someone else on how to dispose of evidence. The part about getting help from his cousin, now a potential witness to burn the duffel bags and asking his aunt to clean bloody cloths is the level of stupidity I would expect from Lloyd.

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All investigators need to do is find the site of the campfire, and viola! They will have all the evidence they need. Archeologists have gleaned all kinds of information about all kinds of things concerning civilizations that have been extinct for thousands of years by sifting through campfire sites!

From the Washington Post article:

quote:

Should the case go to trial, prosecutors face a difficult task. Exactly where the girls were killed remains unclear — underscoring the challenges of building a case after 40 years. Crime scenes disappear. Memories fade. Records can’t be found.

Such “no-body” homicide cases are relatively rare — and the Lyon sisters case is unusual even in that group. Indeed, if jurors hear the case, it would represent the longest-known duration between someone’s disappearance and a “no-body” trial in U.S. history, according to statistics kept by Tad DiBiase, a former assistant U.S. attorney in the District who has written a book on the subject.

unquote.

News analysts and lawyers have made a point of saying that this will be a difficult case to try for a number of reasons.

My impression is that Prosecutors are going to follow up this indictment with another suspect or suspects soon, perhaps hoping to play one against the other in plea bargains.

It is certainly hoped that in the end some true answers can be found and the girls bodies can be returned home to Maryland.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...a2e68c-2a2f-11e5-a250-42bd812efc09_story.html

Richard, you are good at finding the records on people. Who is this Henry Parker, who helped Lloyd burn some duffel bags?

From the Washington Post.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...a2e68c-2a2f-11e5-a250-42bd812efc09_story.html

The account of the fire and duffel bags, unloaded in a rugged area of Bedford known as Taylors Mountain, came from a detectives’ interview with Welch’s cousin, Henry Parker, in December, according to a search warrant application.

“He stated, under oath, that he met Lloyd Welch at the property of 3417 and 3409 Taylors Mountain Road,” detectives wrote in the affidavit. “He stated it was in 1975. Lloyd arrived at the residence in a vehicle. He helped Lloyd get out two army-style duffel bags from the trunk of the vehicle.”

The bags, Parker said, smelled like “death,” according to the affidavit.

Reached by phone Wednesday, Henry Parker confirmed the substance of the account in the court papers. “I threw some bags in the fire,” he said, “but I didn’t know what was in the bags.”

Parker said his mother, Elizabeth Parker, who is now deceased, told him to help Welch. He said he didn’t see the Lyon sisters.

http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/ric...ient-amid-lyon-sisters-investigation/34207690

According to police, Lloyd Welch told investigators the Lyon sisters were taken to be "sexually exploited." The younger Welch also said that he saw his uncle sexually assault one of the girls.

"He's making it up. He's lying about it," exclaimed Carter Garrett, a Bedford-based attorney for Richard Welch.

Garrett says his client is maintaining his innocence and thinks investigators are looking at the wrong Welch.

"I think police would be better suited to look at some of the deceased members of the family," Garrett said.

I think the most common way by far is just to bury a body.

But if someone has some statistics, please share.

I am guessing its 1 in a 100 bodies disposed by burning.

But for murderers with access to a furnace or farm property where waste is often burned, it might be a higher percent.

Police investigate murder suspect's UNCLE in case of sisters who vanished from a Maryland mall in 1975 after claims he sexually abused the girls

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-mall-1975-claims-sexually-abused-girls.html

Carter Garrett, Richard Welch's attorney said to WDBJ ""I think police would be better suited to look at some of the deceased members of the family," and ""How do you cooperate when you don't know anything?" Garrett asked. "They're just maintaining their innocence, he and Patricia both. They really know nothing about the disappearance of these little girls."

Remember, CG is a well paid wordsmith for hire. He'll deflect questions, divert attention, and deny everything on behalf of his client. And throughout the course of this sad saga he'll suck RAW's finances dry. I doubt RAW has deep pockets, so we'll see how long that business relationship lasts.

LE has looked at deceased members of the clan, however they can't charge a dead person with a crime. I've said it before, there are likely members of the family who participated to some extent or at least had knowledge of what happened. Statistically, many of them would be dead by now. It's true that LLW has many deceased uncles, as well as several close-in-age male cousins who lived hard and died young. Two of these dead cousins grew up at 3417 Taylor Mountain Rd. and were age 21 and 20 at the time that 18 year old LLW2 came to their parents house with bloody duffel bags in 1975. We know that Mom Lizzie Welch Parker directed youngest son Henry to help LLW burn the duffel bags, and daughter Connie was asked to wash LLW's bloody clothes. Even some neighbors noticed the smell of flesh burning in a fire over two days. So, it would be dubious to assert that other family members were ignorant to all of this going on. Sure, RAW can point fingers at dead guys, but that does not get him off the hook.

As for Richard and Patricia knowing "nothing", be assured that Patricia Welch did not perjure herself for a dead person or LLW2. However, she would lie to save her own skin and that of her husband. As far as "maintaining their innocence" that's a bunch of lawyer-speak crap. Get both of them down to the police station for polygraphs, maybe then you can proclaim their innocence. Until then, put up or STFU.

Where does it say neighbors smelled burning flesh?

scriptgirl said:

Where does it say neighbors smelled burning flesh?

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http://www.wset.com/story/29537350/update-search-warrants-reveal-new-information-in-lyon-sisters-case

Witness testimony in the warrants say they noted the memory of a fire, because it burned for several days and smelled like burning flesh.

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http://www.newsadvance.com/news/local/documents-reveal-grisly-details-of-murders-of-lyon-sisters-in/article_9ece6dec-2b0d-11e5-ad30-ab8c83fd1727.html

Neighbors told investigators they remember a fire burning on the property for several days around the same time as the girls’ disappearance. One neighbor was quoted in the affidavit saying he remembered the fire smelled like “burning flesh.”

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RichardLewis said:

As for Richard and Patricia knowing "nothing", be assured that Patricia Welch did not perjure herself for a dead person or LLW2. However, she would lie to save her own skin and that of her husband.

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Like everyone without access to the grand jury testimony, I have no idea why PW may have lied.

But I am pretty sure it was not to save her skin or her husband's skin, since one can't be compelled to testify against one's self or one's husband in most situations. The would simply take the fifth, as any lawyer would advise if their skin were at risk.

They could be protecting some other relative's skin, hiding some very embarrassing, maybe even criminal thing they did in the past where they can't be charged with because of the statute of limitations or immunity, or the charges could be trumped up to apply pressure.

steveP120 said:

Like everyone without access to the grand jury testimony, I have no idea why PW may have lied.

But I am pretty sure it was not to save her skin or her husband's skin, since one can't be compelled to testify against one's self or one's husband in most situations. The would simply take the fifth, as any lawyer would advise if their skin were at risk.

They could be protecting some other relative's skin, hiding some very embarrassing, maybe even criminal thing they did in the past where they can't be charged with because of the statute of limitations or immunity, or the charges could be trumped up to apply pressure.

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It will be interesting to see what the perjury charge is based on. In Virginia, Grand Jury testimony is not open to the public. The only people present are the jury members, the Commonwealth's Attorney and the person testifying. Witnesses are not allowed to have legal counsel present.

This is pure speculation on my part...but this charge could be something like "on such and such day, were you and your husband present at such and such location or on said day did you contact a certain family member and inquire about law enforcement digging on property in Taylor's Mountain. If she answered in the negative and they have witnesses that can contradict her, that could be the basis for the charge. Also, once it became known that Lloyd was talking to LE, she could have contacted other family members and made inquiries if LE had contacted them and asked what they disclosed. Something of this nature may have been the question by the Commonwealth's Attorney and rather than take the 5th, she may have denied it, which could be contrary to what other witnesses are saying.

Hopefully, the Indictment against her will be made public soon and we will know for sure. If not, everything should come to light in her actual trial.

TedMac said:

It will be interesting to see what the perjury charge is based on. In Virginia, Grand Jury testimony is not open to the public. The only people present are the jury members, the Commonwealth's Attorney and the person testifying. Witnesses are not allowed to have legal counsel present.

This is pure speculation on my part...but this charge could be something like "on such and such day, were you and your husband present at such and such location or on said day did you contact a certain family member and inquire about law enforcement digging on property in Taylor's Mountain. If she answered in the negative and they have witnesses that can contradict her, that could be the basis for the charge. Also, once it became known that Lloyd was talking to LE, she could have contacted other family members and made inquiries if LE had contacted them and asked what they disclosed. Something of this nature may have been the question by the Commonwealth's Attorney and rather than take the 5th, she may have denied it, which could be contrary to what other witnesses are saying.

Hopefully, the Indictment against her will be made public soon and we will know for sure. If not, everything should come to light in her actual trial.

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Hopefully they will be able to prove beyond any doubt that she allegedly lied and they can throw the book at her and anyone else who is lying or covering up this terrible crime.

To knowingly sit back withholding information and live your life for 40 years knowing full well the Lyon family are suffering not knowing what happened to their daughters and sisters is unforgiveable and disgraceful.

JusticeWillBeServed said:

http://www.wset.com/story/29537350/update-search-warrants-reveal-new-information-in-lyon-sisters-case



http://www.newsadvance.com/news/local/documents-reveal-grisly-details-of-murders-of-lyon-sisters-in/article_9ece6dec-2b0d-11e5-ad30-ab8c83fd1727.html

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I just wish we could go back 40 years and a neighbour called the cops then the Lyon family would have been spared 40 years of misery not knowing what happened to their daughters and they could have given them a funeral.

gregjrichards said:

I just wish we could go back 40 years and a neighbour called the cops then the Lyon family would have been spared 40 years of misery not knowing what happened to their daughters and they could have given them a funeral.

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Sad, but true. We can actually go one step further than that. This is not to cast aspersions, as it is a fair and reasonable question to ask, and I'm certain it is one that the grand jury asked Henry Parker. Where was his father AWP1 when all this was going on? As the property owner of 3417 Taylor Mountain Rd. and man of the house, AWP1 would have had the right and responsibility to ask LLW2 what the hell he was doing just showing up unannounced at his home with bloody clothing and two bloody 60 lb. duffel bags. He could have investigated a two day fire on his property that smelled like burning flesh.

Regarding the neighbors; when you look at the maps, property records, and family trees, you then have a better understanding.

A little O/T maybe, but did John and Mary Lyon have any other children? Anybody know?

Yes, John and Mary Lyon had two other children, two sons, one older than the girls, and one younger than the girls. In fact, the last family member to see Katherine and Shiela Lyon on 03/25/75, was their older brother who saw them at Wheaton Plaza.

Historydetective63 said:

Yes, John and Mary Lyon had two other children, two sons, one older than the girls, and one younger than the girls. In fact, the last family member to see Katherine and Shiela Lyon on 03/25/75, was their older brother who saw them at Wheaton Plaza.

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BBM I'm sure that last vision of them has haunted him everyday since. You can't help but wonder how many times he has asked himself, "What if I had just stayed with them and walked them home? They would probably still be alive today!" I'm sure that has really eaten away at him.