ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #8

ILOKAL · Aug 15, 2015

Jules71 said:
Right? Crazy. During the search.

What was everyone's first thoughts when you heard this? I immediately thought it was to throw off the investigation - but then I'm suspicious like that.

The only way it would be somewhat explainable is if she was camping in the upper campground which is on the other side of the reservoir and hadn't left that area and the search and searchers were more around the creek and campground and were not yet visible from the reservoir.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Actually, the sheriff DID say the woman was on the other side (or across) of the reservoir and didn't know (couldn't see?) about the search. I read that on the forum but don't recall who posted it. IMO

rkf · Aug 15, 2015

Trident said:
Is it possible that many involved in this case share the same societal/cultural/religious beliefs? From the case of Jerold Joseph Williams in AZ I saw how closed-mouthed some people can be. In that case we didn't even get to know the names of the child's parents, did we?

My opinion only, just speculating

I don't know this for fact, but allow me to pontificate anyway...

I highly doubt Jerold's parents were otherwise gregarious and social media junkies.

If JM and DK were always private people, I can almost understand their reluctance to tell their story. But until DeOrr disappeared, they frequently updated their SM pages, including photos, stories of what they were doing, etc. DeOrr's parents' MSM shyness seem primarily driven by their fear of having their words twisted or being criticized on SM. I think a lot of people in this case may share a religion, but there are certainly varying degrees of "devoutness". IMO, religion doesn't explain the radio silence in this case.

In the other case, the parents were members of a fundamentalist sect that has not enjoyed a smooth relationship with outside law enforcement. The parents' relationship itself may be "illegal" outside their community, so it makes sense that they would not want their names released. I'm guessing everyone within their community already knew who they were and for anyone outside it, their names wouldn't make any difference. JMO

rkf · Aug 15, 2015

ILOKAL said:
Actually, the sheriff DID say the woman was on the other side (or across) of the reservoir and didn't know (couldn't see?) about the search. I read that on the forum but don't recall who posted it. IMO

I would love to see that link. I have heard virtually nothing about the woman dumping the cremains. Yesterday I saw the article that said she was a local woman thanks to another poster.

wondering25 · Aug 15, 2015

I am sure someone has posted this before.. but this says that deorr was LAST SEEN at1330 pm.. that is 130. Not the 2 pm we have been saying or close to 2 pm "naptime".

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/show/29726

Case Information

Status Missing
First name Deorr
Middle name Jay
Last name Kunz
Nickname/Alias Little Man
NCMEC number 1251277
Date last seen July 10, 2015 13:30
Date entered 07/31/2015

Besides the 130 missing time , I just noticed something else.. He went missing on July 10th ..date ENTERED July 31. What the hell? 3 weeks later? This kind of thing and the poster with the wrong eye color tell me that this system is also broken. jmo

JadeSLeuth · Aug 15, 2015

gliving said:
Lemhi County Sheriff's Office
July 20 at 9:10am ·
Press Release 7/20/15
Ref: DeOrr Kunz
The Lemhi County Sheriffs Office is officially scaling back an intensive and exhaustive search of the Timber Creek/Stone Reservoir, area, southwest of Leadore, for the missing 2 yr old boy, DeOrr Kunz. After 10 days of searching, diving, and scouring the hillsides, the Sheriffs Office has decided to redirect the investigation. The primary searchers included multiple agencies such as, Salmon Search & Rescue, The Lemhi County Sheriffs Office, The Bonneville County Sheriffs Office & Bonneville County Search & Rescue, Salmon PD, Idaho Fish & Game, multiple canine handlers, divers, and the public, especially the community of Leadore. The family of DeOrr has continued to cooperate with law enforcement and has volunteered to take polygraphs, which is common in these types of investigations. The parents are not considered suspects and this is a routine procedure. The Sheriffs Office will keep a presence in the Timber Creek area, continuing to search for clues, and has not ruled out abduction by strangers or wild animals. Numerous resources, including helicopters with FLIR, divers, side scan sonar, scent dogs, cadaver dogs, horses, atvs, and over 300 people, were used to grid and search the reservoir, the creek, and the hillsides, with absolutely no sign of the victim. We are asking the public to continue to report any information to the Idaho Fusion Center at 208 846-7676, or to the Lemhi County Sheriffs Office at 208 756-8980.
Sheriff Lynn D. Bowerman/Chief Deputy Steve Penner

https://www.facebook.com/LemhiCountySheriffsOffice/posts/884467051627459

Thank-you for this. The clear statement that BOTH scent dogs AND cadaver dogs were utilized (which I'd either missed or forgotten) is helpful (and satisfying) for me for some reason. While not perfect, I do place great value on the work of these dogs.
Where is DeOrr?

Trident · Aug 15, 2015

rkf said:
I don't know this for fact, but allow me to pontificate anyway...

I highly doubt Jerold's parents were otherwise gregarious and social media junkies.

If JM and DK were always private people, I can almost understand their reluctance to tell their story. But until DeOrr disappeared, they frequently updated their SM pages, including photos, stories of what they were doing, etc. DeOrr's parents' MSM shyness seem primarily driven by their fear of having their words twisted or being criticized on SM. I think a lot of people in this case may share a religion, but there are certainly varying degrees of "devoutness". IMO, religion doesn't explain the radio silence in this case.

In the other case, the parents were members of a fundamentalist sect that has not enjoyed a smooth relationship with outside law enforcement. The parents' relationship itself may be "illegal" outside their community, so it makes sense that they would not want their names released. I'm guessing everyone within their community already knew who they were and for anyone outside it, their names wouldn't make any difference. JMO

Now your post sounds quite reasonable. However, is it possible that being closed-mouthed is part and parcel of certain religions, fundamental or not? For me that would make some things fall into place a great deal better than they have been. Just speculating, and only my opinion.

ILOKAL · Aug 15, 2015

rkf said:
I would love to see that link. I have heard virtually nothing about the woman dumping the cremains. Yesterday I saw the article that said she was a local woman thanks to another poster.

It must be in an article someplace on the forum because this is the only place I have followed this case. It might have been in the very first article that mentioned the cremains but I'm not sure. Someone will surely find it and post it. If I can locate it I will post it for sure.

starfire · Aug 15, 2015

kammiemc said:
There's something else I would add. IF it's true that there was some familiarity between anyone in LE and the family, there could have been preconceptions that might have led LE to rule out certain avenues at first.

This is human nature! My neighbor is a doctor. In an emergency I walked to her house (she's just two doors down) and she got me into an ambulance. Later, I told her that I thought it could have to do with a prescription painkiller I had taken too much of post surgery. She said, because I'm a good friend, she hadn't even gone through the normal questioning--what drugs are you on, etc., because she assumed she would have known. (And also probably thought that I would be too smart to take too much!) And she said that's exactly why it's protocol for doctors not to treat friends and family. I imagine the same could be said for any kind of investigating.

Yes, and the PI also indicated that he knew Deorr Sr prior to this and then went on to say things like he wouldn't do something to him, the boy was his life, and so on...so I wonder how much that affects his judgment about the parents in this case.

Also, according to his web page, the PI's own children were kidnapped and missing for 2 years, and he located them, apparently alive, in Mexico. I am not sure if this was a parental abduction or a stranger abduction, but that experience probably also colors his views about the possibility of Deorr Jr. being abducted and still being alive.

He is presently completing a book about his years as a Deputy U. S. Marshal that involved the stopping a hijacking at the Los Angeles International Airport, making many high profile arrests and locating his two kidnapped children that were missing in Mexico for over two years. http://frankvilt.com/about/

giagreen · Aug 15, 2015

SeriouslySearching said:
Sorry, but it isn't. After this amount of time, chances are this little boy is gone and his eye color doesn't matter. His DNA and dental records matter.

So sad because your right

Suthrnqt · Aug 15, 2015

Marking my spot.....

starfire · Aug 15, 2015

rkf said:
Also, there are rules about where cremains can be dumped in National Park land. It is illegal to put them in the reservoir. I'd think someone would look into where they are allowed to spread their loved ones' ashes before doing it. I'd also think if you came upon an area where there were close to 200 people crawling over the ground, searching for something, you would turn around and come back another time, unless you were from out of town. What are the chances that someone from out of town dumped the ashes and LE was able to track them down so quickly?

I'm not so sure that the majority of people research the laws on where they can illegally dump cremains before they do it. I think many decide where they want to scatter them based on the deceased person's wishes or based on where they think is a good spot -- and then just do it on the down-low. Right or wrong, that's what I would do.

That reminds me -- there is a Facebook page called "Scattering CJ" that a grieving mother set up to honor her son who committed suicide. She sends out small packets of her sons cremains with a picture of him to strangers all over the country, who then scatter the ashes somewhere they think the guy might've liked to visit, some sort of scenic spot, etc...... and take a picture or video of themselves scattering it. Then a brief synopsis of the scattering with the photo is posted on the page. Literally hundreds of people have done this for her, scattering his ashes all over the world. It's fascinating to me how people have responded, some going to great lengths to take his ashes places and have little ceremonies for him. In the first month the page was up (November of 2013) 150 people had scattered his remains, a year later his ashes had been spread all over the U.S. and in 100 countries. It is still going on. Not sure if she has run out of ashes yet.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/24/us/maine-mother-scatters-sons-ashes/
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-30045623

wondering25 · Aug 15, 2015

GGP and the oxygen thing makes no sense to me. Here is why. AT SOME POINT you need electricity. Let me see if i can explain.. There is a large compressor for home use. This is plugged in and a 50 ft tubing with nasal "prongs" is attached. This allows you to move about your home. You get continuous oxygen from this compressor and no need to use a tank. On top of the compressor is another piece.. this is where you refill your portable tanks to take when you are going out. These tanks would last about 3 hours for continuous use give or take depending on how many liters per minute you have the gauge set for. Ok, with me so far? Insurance companies typically give you 2-3 refillable tanks. In order to refill them you need to have the compressor plugged in and then it takes several hours to refill the tanks. For around $3000 , you can purchase a small portable compressor that pulls the O2 out of the atmosphere and eliminates the need for the heavier portable tanks. This runs on a battery. The BATTERY needs to be recharged ~ every 24 hours... SO, you need electricity to recharge the battery. in either scenario.. you cannot be away from a source of power for longer than 9-24 hours depending on what you use as your oxygen delivery system. This is why when there is a power outage the people you see in the "shelters" first are those who are on oxygen. The shelters have a generator for electricity. So, 2+ hours from home.. using O2 on the trip to the campsite, no electricity.. how long can one go without refilling tanks( which have to be done at home) or recharging the battery? 9-24 hours. Unless he just takes a "whiff" now and then. This continuous O2 rumor is not valid. JMO

CatsInTheCradle · Aug 15, 2015

katydid23 said:
BBM

It seems like this is kind of what happened. Miscommunication between caretakers.

RBBM

I'm on my way out of town this morning but wanted to respond to this. I believe this is what happened. Assumptions...and then something like this happened. Why we cannot make sense of anything. JMO

http://www.wbir.com/story/news/local/2014/05/22/dennis-martin-missing-45-years/9405607/

THIS SUMMER MARKS 45 YEARS SINCE SIX-YEAR-OLD DENNIS MARTIN VANISHED DURING A FAMILY CAMPING TRIP IN THE SMOKIES. HE WAS NEVER FOUND. THE FAILURES OF THE LARGEST SEARCH IN THE HISTORY OF THE GREAT SMOKY MOUNTAINS TAUGHT RESCUE CREWS ACROSS THE NATION SEVERAL LIFE-SAVING LESSONS.

ETA - the search information is very interesting.

starfire · Aug 15, 2015

wondering25 said:
GGP and the oxygen thing makes no sense to me. Here is why. AT SOME POINT you need electricity. Let me see if i can explain.. There is a large compressor for home use. This is plugged in and a 50 ft tubing with nasal "prongs" is attached. This allows you to move about your home. You get continuous oxygen from this compressor and no need to use a tank. On top of the compressor is another piece.. this is where you refill your portable tanks to take when you are going out. These tanks would last about 3 hours for continuous use give or take depending on how many liters per minute you have the gauge set for. Ok, with me so far? Insurance companies typically give you 2-3 refillable tanks. In order to refill them you need to have the compressor plugged in and then it takes several hours to refill the tanks. For around $3000 , you can purchase a small portable compressor that pulls the O2 out of the atmosphere and eliminates the need for the heavier portable tanks. This runs on a battery. The BATTERY needs to be recharged ~ every 24 hours... SO, you need electricity to recharge the battery. in either scenario.. you cannot be away from a source of power for longer than 9-24 hours depending on what you use as your oxygen delivery system. This is why when there is a power outage the people you see in the "shelters" first are those who are on oxygen. The shelters have a generator for electricity. So, 2+ hours from home.. using O2 on the trip to the campsite, no electricity.. how long can one go without refilling tanks( which have to be done at home) or recharging the battery? 9-24 hours. Unless he just takes a "whiff" now and then. This continuous O2 rumor is not valid. JMO

Maybe they did have electricity. I personally think a camper was involved in the trip. Also, some regular vehicles have electrical outlets in them --mine does. Maybe gramps has a portable generator. And it's also possible he had multiple portable tanks and/or he used pulse-flow oxygen which uses much less O2 than continuous flow or, like you said, he doesn't always have it on. It's hard to know.

kammiemc · Aug 15, 2015

rkf said:
IR said he was with DeOrr and ggp when DeOrr disappeared.

NE: "So he was just with you and the grandfather when he wandered away?"
IR: "Um hmm."
NE: "And then you guys thought he was with the parents."
IR: "Yeah."
NE: "The parents came back and he was gone?"
IR: Pause. "Um hmm."
NE: "Okay."

[video=youtube;01DB2lqpWcs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01DB2lqpWcs[/video]

OMG, I had not seen this before. What is he ON? After seeing this, I wouldn't let any child within a mile of IR. This is very troubling. It's hard to take anything that he said seriously since his eyes were basically closed and he didn't seem to have much awareness of what he was saying, BUT he did agree that he was there when DeOrr wandered away. Which would make it seem like he was not fishing, but instead at the campground.

ETA: So, if the parents came back to the campground and asked ggp where little DeOrr was, does that mean that IR was no longer at the campground. Did IR and DeOrr both leave the campground while the parents were exploring? (Is that where this fishing story is coming into play?)

ILOKAL · Aug 15, 2015

CatsInTheCradle said:
RBBM

I'm on my way out of town this morning but wanted to respond to this. I believe this is what happened. Assumptions...and then something like this happened. Why we cannot make sense of anything. JMO

http://www.wbir.com/story/news/local/2014/05/22/dennis-martin-missing-45-years/9405607/

THIS SUMMER MARKS 45 YEARS SINCE SIX-YEAR-OLD DENNIS MARTIN VANISHED DURING A FAMILY CAMPING TRIP IN THE SMOKIES. HE WAS NEVER FOUND. THE FAILURES OF THE LARGEST SEARCH IN THE HISTORY OF THE GREAT SMOKY MOUNTAINS TAUGHT RESCUE CREWS ACROSS THE NATION SEVERAL LIFE-SAVING LESSONS.

ETA - the search information is very interesting.

Yes, I read about the Dennis Martin disappearance last month. Quite a compelling story. A must read for anyone following little Deorr's disappearance.

Dee10 · Aug 15, 2015

[FONT=&amp]Kevin Miller interviewing Nate (reporter) - Aug 12 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB1jNvgY-uk&feature=youtu.be

- Confirms they did take polygraph tests, but LE not giving results

- FBI searched their homes & vehicles & have their vehicles & homes returned to normal circumstances at this time (according to family)

- LE detectives talk to them everyday bringing them any updates or new conditions (according to family)

- No criminal records on the parents that they could find.

- Grandfather is elderly, on oxygen and has a few health issues, never been a suspect or anyone they are focusing on.

- Friend does have a few things in his criminal past, but police say he is co-operating as well.
[/FONT]

eileenhawkeye · Aug 15, 2015

TeaTime said:
Wow! Just listened to the interview of the PI at post 933 and learned some interesting things. The bolded parts are his words, albeit summarized and not direct quotes. Everything else is mine.

Eighth - national media needs to bring this case to the attention of the country. There may be someone who noticed that some people now have a little boy that didn't have one before this baby boy disappeared.

(snipped)

I would be interested in knowing what the parents have done to generate national media interest in Deorr's case. Have they contacted media outlets and offered to be interviewed? Considering that they have only spoken to local media once, it is hard for me to think they are open to talking to the national media. I think the PI agreeing to be interviewed, providing new information, could also help the case to get back in the news. Has he offered to be interviewed? I would like to know about their attempts to get the media interested. If they have contacted the national media, but are not willing to talk, then why should Deorr's case get airtime when there are probably thousands of people out there who want airtime for their child's case (and not just missing child cases) and would talk? And if they haven't gotten much response, one thing they could do is try to make the case go viral on social media. Many stories have been picked up by the media because of the huge interest in social media.

I just feel like the comment was in response to all of us who keep asking why the parents aren't in front of the media. It is like we are suppose to either assume that the parents are desperate to get on national TV and have done everything they can or we are suppose to think it's the media's responsibility to talk about this case, even if neither the parents or PI reach out.

Personally, I think it is highly unlikely that someone traveled to the middle of nowhere Idaho to abduct a child, and then brought them back to say, New England, to raise them. I would rather the PI say that they decided to focus on the immediate area, instead of acting like they want national coverage.

ClaireNC · Aug 15, 2015

kammiemc said:
OMG, I had not seen this before. What is he ON? After seeing this, I wouldn't let any child within a mile of IR. This is very troubling. It's hard to take anything that he said seriously since his eyes were basically closed and he didn't seem to have much awareness of what he was saying, BUT he did agree that he was there when DeOrr wandered away. Which would make it seem like he was not fishing, but instead at the campground.

ETA: So, if the parents came back to the campground and asked ggp where little DeOrr was, does that mean that IR was no longer at the campground. Did IR and DeOrr both leave the campground while the parents were exploring? (Is that where this fishing story is coming into play?)

Definitely something creepy about that guy. I certainly wouldn't want him around my children. Anyway to answer your question, yes that is where the fishing story comes into play. The rumor mill reports that he was fishing when DeOrr disappeared.

ClaireNC · Aug 15, 2015

Dee10 said:
[FONT=&]Kevin Miller interviewing Nate (reporter) - Aug 12 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB1jNvgY-uk&feature=youtu.be
- Confirms they did take polygraph tests, but LE not giving results

- FBI searched their homes & vehicles & have their vehicles & homes returned to normal circumstances at this time (according to family)

- LE detectives talk to them everyday bringing them any updates or new conditions (according to family)

- No criminal records on the parents that they could find.

- Grandfather is elderly, on oxygen and has a few health issues, never been a suspect or anyone they are focusing on.

- Friend does have a few things in his criminal past, but police say he is co-operating as well.
[/FONT]

Thanks Dee10, I copied your summary over to the Media Links thread for DeOrr.

Status	Missing
First name	Deorr
Middle name	Jay
Last name	Kunz
Nickname/Alias	Little Man
NCMEC number	1251277
Date last seen	July 10, 2015 13:30
Date entered	07/31/2015

ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #8

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