Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #5

elastic · May 21, 2016

papertrail said:
I supplied the court transcripts which detailed Donald Victor Morey was given a sentence WITH NO PAROLE and from my understanding that meant he was to serve his FULL SENTENCE of 13 years and 4 months. Read the transcript I provided previously; I don't 'suspect' anything. He was convicted of the attempted murder on DNA evidence - his blood in victim's hair - therefore if WA Police do have DNA link from the Karrakatta victim that links that victim to Ciara Glennon, Morey's DNA would have been cross referenced.

Morey was in jail at the time of all rapes, assaults (except for the 2 sexual assault adjacent to the Swanbourne Railway station) and murders.

The plastic-lined boot guy could be one of thousands and it wasn't me.

BTW the Bayens police operation ran from 2000-2002.

I am very open minded about the CSK case and I think its pretty obvious from our discussions on multiple potential sex offenders on here that I probably have the least bias opinion on who the CSK is and keep a very impartial open mind in discussions to try and let any potential POI be discussed without the need to belittle the person who raises a particular POI. I have a couple of people who I think could be the CSK. I am very open to discussing many and all possibilities, Whether Morey is or isnt the CSK honestly does not actually bother me, but there is no proof he was in jail during the CSK and Karrakatta years, and if he is plastic lined boot man then Con Bayens did not think he was in jail during those years either, and Con Bayens was hinting towards the plastic boot man being Morey.

Now I am not saying ML is not the CSK, I am saying he is more than likely NOT the 'plastic lined boot man' he may well be the CSK and Morey is another serial killer who came onto the Police radar after Con Bayens 2002 Northbridge/highgate operation.

elastic · May 21, 2016

Elwood_1 said:
Woolcoot Rd is about 8,000 metres from Kwinana Beach. Assuming a 30 second time of flight you would need to hit the beach in your boat at about a 45 degree angle, and at just over the speed of sound to make it there. Assuming no aerodynamic drag, of course.

The landing would be pretty ugly though (buckle up), and you would probably need to trailer the wreckage home.

But on the bright side, that would get you up to about 17,000 feet, so you would have a really nice view of the city before you started your descent. The only real problem is that the sonic boom would probably tip off the neighbors that you were up to something. And the plume of dust from when you hit would certainly make your car dirty. Oh, yes. Two trips through the car wash that day.

Brilliant!

BenJones84 · May 21, 2016

elastic said:
to assume the CSK is plotting wuith his dump sites, and tagetting victims based on their irish names/meanings/links is also concerning.

The CSK is clearly positioning the bodies with high accuracy. The killer must have a very good knowledge of maps. In 1996, there was no google earth, definitely someone with an interest in orienteering.. but hey look who I'm explaiing it to.

Sutton · May 21, 2016

BenJones84 said:
The CSK is clearly positioning the bodies with high accuracy. The killer must have a very good knowledge of maps. In 1996, there was no google earth, definitely someone with an interest in orienteering.. but hey look who I'm explaiing it to.

The killer is not positioning the bodies. He is disposing the victims because he is finished with them. To suggest, without supporting evidence, that there is some ritual disposal, or hidden geographic plan, is an insult to his victims, their families and everyone who helps keep this thread active.

Any three things can be in a line. Even if there was evidence the killer did this intentionally--which there is not--what would it mean? The killer likes straight lines?

crabstick · May 21, 2016

I cant see efforts to help find a parents child as an insult. What I have seen is some users imply that victims are druggies without substantiation which is defamation. That is an insult to the parents.

With all the evidence on serial killers such as zodiac, etc, discounting that this police stated 'serial killer' may not have a pattern in what they do is not an insult to parents. Its not defamation of their children. Its a legitimate concern that the two bodies were actually placed for a specific reason.

Other bodies have not been found yet, and investigators have said, these bodies have been left roadside deliberately so they are found. Well agree to disagree.

There was early unsubstantiated police rumour that it had been done with a UBD directory by a bored taxi driver, hence taxi suspicions.

Sutton said:
The killer is not positioning the bodies. He is disposing the victims because he is finished with them. To suggest, without supporting evidence, that there is some ritual disposal, or hidden geographic plan, is an insult to his victims, their families and everyone who helps keep this thread active.

Any three things can be in a line. Even if there was evidence the killer did this intentionally--which there is not--what would it mean? The killer likes straight lines?

Sutton · May 21, 2016

crabstick said:
I cant see efforts to help find a parents child as an insult. What I have seen is some users imply that victims are druggies without substantiation which is defamation. That is an insult to the parents.

1. I don't recall these posts, and they are not related to my original comment.
2. Implications are not defamation.

With all the evidence on serial killers such as zodiac, etc, discounting that this police stated 'serial killer' may not have a pattern in what they do is not an insult to parents. Its not defamation of their children. Its a legitimate concern that the two bodies were actually placed for a specific reason.

1. I'm not sure what you mean. Of course the Zodiac is a serial killer. Serial killers follow some patterns. What 'pattern' are you even referring to in regards to the CSK?
2. What specific reason?

Other bodies have not been found yet, and investigators have said, these bodies have been left roadside deliberately so they are found. Well agree to disagree.

1. What 'bodies' have not been found?
2. Who said this?

There was early unsubstantiated police rumour that it had been done with a UBD directory by a bored taxi driver, hence taxi suspicions.

1. Is this a separate point you are making? Is it related to your current argument?

crabstick · May 21, 2016

Please provide proof that the killer hasn't positioned the bodies, considering police reports in the media said they had deliberately left the bodies out to be found. Unfortunately being in the USA, you weren't exposed to early news reports of the time.

How can a geographical contemplation be an insult to the parents? We are discussing a serial killer here. The most expensive investigation in Australia.

Are you saying serial killers don't play games with police? How would other people in this thread be insulted that a taxi driver that looks at a UBD road directory all day, decide to draw up a geodetic game with police where the two discovered bodies left beside the road 40 km from the abduction points to be found happen to vector through the main area be an insult?

Coincidence it may be that the vector passes through the street they often partied and the abduction area, the chances of coincidence are far greater it not pass through than it does.

Sutton said:
The killer is not positioning the bodies. He is disposing the victims because he is finished with them. To suggest, without supporting evidence, that there is some ritual disposal, or hidden geographic plan, is an insult to his victims, their families and everyone who helps keep this thread active.

Any three things can be in a line. Even if there was evidence the killer did this intentionally--which there is not--what would it mean? The killer likes straight lines?

crabstick · May 21, 2016

Please prove it is not a woman.
The person is quite slight, has no shoulders, has truckloads of hair, not much a jaw line. The body is not muscular at all.
The business shirt is flared and rather much bigger than the person wearing the shirt. Its nearly a smock.
The person enters the camera with back faced to the camera, never turns their face to face the camera. The person appears to know where the camera is.
Its more than likely a man, but look at Janes face. Shes surprised, and she laughs, with surprise.

The male behind the main POI is bigger even though 6 feet behind, and the POI is wearing a shirt 2 sizes bigger than they are with the collar spread

elastic said:
Hopefully they never make you a detective, That is NOT a woman...

crabstick said:

Mountains of hair and although the video is poor, not much of a jaw line? Pale skin and not much of a neck, no shoulders. Hair over ears. A well hidden frame behind a flared business shirt. Could our man be a woman?

Look at the shoulders on the man behind them with white shirt on.

Click to expand...

Peter Kurten · May 22, 2016

Thanks Sprintman, you beat me to it.

While DNA analysis was nowhere near as efficient as it is now, protocols were in place in the mid 90's in regards to the preservation of evidence in the view of DNA identification developing in the future. While evidence mismanagement did occur throughout the years of Macro, the amount of detail involved in evidence collection from the Ciara Glennon site in particular, would have been extremely extensive. Evidence was stored in conditions that most preserved any DNA evidence. Time and time again, even when Macro investigators avoided questions on whether they had DNA, they would always insist that further DNA evidence could be brought to the table, and it has.

The main problem with this case was the compounding of a few different factors: information overload, overallocation of task force resources, software shortfalls (leading to the innovation of H.O.L.M.E.S 2) , lack of physical evidence, vague and sensationalised profiling, and large number of people unable to be eliminated from the "interesting people list".

crabstick · May 22, 2016

Hence the form one of the forum users refused to fill out when speaking to police officers. I think it might have been Droc under a pseudo. I think.

But the form was part of the broader investigation, and the database used the data to build case analysis. So while the form was portrayed as police arrogance, the form was a very important part of the investigation.

Through the database they can query model relationships of victims

Debi, Marshall, 2007. The Devil's Garden: The Claremont Serial Killings. 2nd ed. Australia: Random House.

Peter Kurten said:
Thanks Sprintman, you beat me to it.

While DNA analysis was nowhere near as efficient as it is now, protocols were in place in the mid 90's in regards to the preservation of evidence in the view of DNA identification developing in the future. While evidence mismanagement did occur throughout the years of Macro, the amount of detail involved in evidence collection from the Ciara Glennon site in particular, would have been extremely extensive. Evidence was stored in conditions that most preserved any DNA evidence. Time and time again, even when Macro investigators avoided questions on whether they had DNA, they would always insist that further DNA evidence could be brought to the table, and it has.

The main problem with this case was the compounding of a few different factors: information overload, overallocation of task force resources, software shortfalls (leading to the innovation of H.O.L.M.E.S 2) , lack of physical evidence, vague and sensationalised profiling, and large number of people unable to be eliminated from the "interesting people list".

crabstick · May 22, 2016

Considering they DNA tested, errm thousands of taxi drivers?
Coincidently, Sarah Spiers was taken from 347 Stirling highway. The angle of the two discovered bodies through Claremont Hotel is 347 degrees. (Check for yourself in Google Earth. Don't take my word for it.)
Page 347 of the UBD road directory is Coobelup I think. The MTT bus drivers wore white shirts as above, in the Rimmer video?

And page 347 encompasses Spearwood by the looks? Is that where the ROE8 freight link is going through?

Image source:https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0071/5032/products/Perth.png?v=1421387042

elastic · May 22, 2016

Well i thinks its excellent to finally see some movement with an inquest for a cold case. It still doesnt guarantee anything but this case is particularly sad and happened during the CSK years.

Bruce Morcombe calls for inquest into unsolved 1997 murder of WA schoolboy Gerard Ross

May 22, 2016 12:00am
KATE CAMPBELLPerthNow

Bruce Morcombe says a coronial inquest could provide a vital breakthrough in the Gerard Ross murder case. Picture: Tara Croser.
THE father of Daniel Morcombe has formally appealed to the State Coroner for an inquest into the 1997 unsolved murder of WA schoolboy Gerard Ross, saying it might lead to a breakthrough.

In a letter the WA Coroner Ros Fogliani will receive this week, Bruce Morcombe urges her to conduct a probe into Gerard’s death and the adequacy of the police investigation.

Gerard’s case is strikingly similar to Daniel’s murder – both boys were snatched off the street in broad daylight and both cases sparked intensive yet fruitless police investigations for many years.

Gerard, 11, vanished while walking along the Rockingham foreshore in October 1997. His body was found dumped in a pine plantation 15 days later.

Mr Morcombe, who became a child safety campaigner after his 13-year-old son’s 2003 murder, said he felt compelled to stand up for Gerard.

Daniel’s killer Brett Peter Cowan was only brought to justice in 2014, thanks partly to a sophisticated undercover sting by WA Police that nabbed a confession.

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“I respect the WA Police and our family acknowledges their amazing efforts in the covert operation that led to the arrest of Brett Cowan for (Daniel’s) abduction and murder,” Mr Morcombe states in his letter, which has been obtained by The Sunday Times.

“I have no doubt that the WA Police have worked tirelessly to solve Gerard’s case but given that almost two decades has passed without progress, I believe it is now the time for a coroner to review the matter and make recommendations about the police investigation.

“An inquest proved crucial in providing a breakthrough and the eventual recovery of Daniel’s remains and I believe an inquest could prove similarly invaluable in revealing the truth in Gerard’s case.”

Gerard Ross, 11, was snatched off the street while walking in Rockingham in October 1997.
Mr Morcombe told The Sunday Times yesterday his interest was sparked in 2009 when he learnt a person of interest in his son’s murder was also investigated in Gerard’s case.

The rest of the article can be found here:
http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wes...s/news-story/ac31b3a17e62601cec817349c86309a1

Do you think they are hinting that its Brett Peter Cowan who come up during the Gerard Ross investigation.

CSK? · May 22, 2016

MM is not a woman, no way in hell, just a skinny guy, and the big shirt with flaired collar just screams country bumpkin to me, and in the cctv vid Jane doesn't look suprised to me, that looks like a hardy laugh not a suprised laugh.

Foolio79 · May 22, 2016

elastic said:
Do you think they are hinting that its Brett Peter Cowan who come up during the Gerard Ross investigation.

No they aren't. Cowan was P7 at Daniels inquest. The Gerard Ross POI was P12. Lots of sickos in the Sunshine Coast area at the time.

http://m.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/missing-pieces-morcombe-puzzle/672745/

Sprintman · May 22, 2016

Has anybody got a copy of the full footage of JR's video?.. I remember seeing a version where she actually is seen getting into a vehicle (taxi type) but have never been able to find it again. I haven't pursued it as I couldn't prove I'd seen it until now when I found this blog from 2008 by Brentyboy which proves that there was such a version but that it must have been rapidly removed from circulation and replaced by the MM focussed version. A clip of the blog supporting the existence of this video is below.
And why I belive Jane Rimmer stepped into a cab that night.
Whether it was the guy in the footage that night driving the taxi remains a question. But the fact she got into a taxi alone, I am 99% certain of.
At 12:01:42 the suspect? walks up to Jane Rimmer.
They have a brief conversation. It has to be breif because the camera reappears at 12:02:14,
Around 30 seconds later and Jane is seen standing at the pole alone.
At around 12:03:10 two gentleman and a woman in a long flowing skirt walk out of the club.
At Exactly 12:03:15 one of the gentlemen can be seen putting his hand out to wave a taxi,
The lights from the taxi, shine on him at this point.
In the Next frame at 12:19:21, Around 4 Seconds later,
Jane Rimmer can clearly be seen stepping forward to get in the taxi, the threesome had
just waved too.
The Long dress girl from the threesome is seen to step back from where Jane standing at 12:03:28
proving that her and her friends had hailed a taxi and had walked down to where Jane was standing to get in.
Jane obviously got in. You can see her move forward.

Anybody got a link to this video?

Sutton · May 22, 2016

Sprintman said:
Has anybody got a copy of the full footage of JR's video?.. I remember seeing a version where she actually is seen getting into a vehicle (taxi type) but have never been able to find it again. I haven't pursued it as I couldn't prove I'd seen it until now when I found this blog from 2008 by Brentyboy which proves that there was such a version but that it must have been rapidly removed from circulation and replaced by the MM focussed version. A clip of the blog supporting the existence of this video is below.

No one who has a copy of this video has ever stored forth. Posters have attested to its existence, and made public pleas for anyone with a copy to post it online or PM it, but no one has ever stepped forth with the video. If it exists, and if anyone reading this has a copy, we would all LOVE to see it.

Sutton · May 22, 2016

crabstick said:
Please provide proof that the killer hasn't positioned the bodies, considering police reports in the media said they had deliberately left the bodies out to be found.

Disposing the bodies in locations they are likely/not likely to be found is different from positioning the bodies according to lay lines or angles.

Unfortunately being in the USA, you weren't exposed to early news reports of the time.

What does "exposed to" mean? Some of the articles have been posted online. I READ them. Is that the same thing?

...Are you saying serial killers don't play games with police? How would other people in this thread be insulted that a taxi driver that looks at a UBD road directory all day, decide to draw up a geodetic game with police where the two discovered bodies left beside the road 40 km from the abduction points to be found happen to vector through the main area be an insult?

Coincidence it may be that the vector passes through the street they often partied and the abduction area, the chances of coincidence are far greater it not pass through than it does.

RSBM & BBM. Absolutely has never happened. Provide one case where this fanciful idea has ever occurred.

Bartholemeus · May 22, 2016

Sprintman said:
Has anybody got a copy of the full footage of JR's video?.. I remember seeing a version where she actually is seen getting into a vehicle (taxi type) but have never been able to find it again. I haven't pursued it as I couldn't prove I'd seen it until now when I found this blog from 2008 by Brentyboy which proves that there was such a version but that it must have been rapidly removed from circulation and replaced by the MM focussed version. A clip of the blog supporting the existence of this video is below.
And why I belive Jane Rimmer stepped into a cab that night.
Whether it was the guy in the footage that night driving the taxi remains a question. But the fact she got into a taxi alone, I am 99% certain of.
At 12:01:42 the suspect? walks up to Jane Rimmer.
They have a brief conversation. It has to be breif because the camera reappears at 12:02:14,
Around 30 seconds later and Jane is seen standing at the pole alone.
At around 12:03:10 two gentleman and a woman in a long flowing skirt walk out of the club.
At Exactly 12:03:15 one of the gentlemen can be seen putting his hand out to wave a taxi,
The lights from the taxi, shine on him at this point.
In the Next frame at 12:19:21, Around 4 Seconds later,
Jane Rimmer can clearly be seen stepping forward to get in the taxi, the threesome had
just waved too.
The Long dress girl from the threesome is seen to step back from where Jane standing at 12:03:28
proving that her and her friends had hailed a taxi and had walked down to where Jane was standing to get in.
Jane obviously got in. You can see her move forward.

Anybody got a link to this video?

There was only one person who claimed he saw this video. Some of the other claims he made are;

- His sister was a cop from Yanchep and told him the girls had the backs of their legs cut to immobilise them.
- He was approached by Macro (or whatever incarnation it was at the time) online and asked to look at some pictures of the girls
- Even though he has never been to WA he was put under surveillance by Macro (D's dressed up as services guys near his house, monitoring him through his computer cam etc)
- This poster has since distanced himself from these claims (because he was called out on it)

Claims by poster with unreliable credibility + if they did have footage of JR getting into a taxi then they wouldn't have spent years focussing on LW = do the maths

Sprintman · May 22, 2016

Yeah well I saw it on the web. It was as the poster described in my previous post. You couldn't see the vehicle however you could see the the rest exactly as Brentyboy describes. It was up and removed in a very short space of time so I guess I was one of the lucky ones to see it and it was footage caught by the same camera at the southern end of Conti. The questions you raise about how this footage was subsequently used are valid and I have no answers for that but it does exist I can assure you of that.

Sutton · May 22, 2016

Sprintman said:
Yeah well I saw it on the web. It was as the poster described in my previous post. You couldn't see the vehicle however you could see the the rest exactly as Brentyboy describes. It was up and removed in a very short space of time so I guess I was one of the lucky ones to see it and it was footage caught by the same camera at the southern end of Conti. The questions you raise about how this footage was subsequently used are valid and I have no answers for that but it does exist I can assure you of that.

Someone on a FB news story claimed to have seen it (but I don't have the link). She was not the Brentyboy poster you quoted. Lefty also saw it.

I believe a longer version was accidentally released and then replaced within a day.

Bret Christian describes yet another version of the video in this Post article, Murder suspect drove Holden wagon.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/9ntidqi1gayimy0/AABtQA-5pkhnDxq6J7YuW5Cua?dl=0

Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #5

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