IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 - #35

tokyorose · Mar 21, 2017

Spellbound said:
Why even attempt to take two girls at one time? How does one have total control over two people? Even with a gun, there must have been some time that he was preoccupied with one "hostage" (for lack of a better word) that may leave time for the second to run, scream, attack him. Did he tie or handcuff them together? Were their mouths covered to stifle screams? For some unknown reason, I don't feel this was a sexually motivated crime.

But another scenario I have contemplated is that the girls encountered someone they knew, even if not too well. Perhaps they asked to use a bathroom, or wandered over to look at the horses. Maybe they were offered hot chocolate or something along that line. Once the suspect had them inside (home, barn, shed?) he became stern and threatening, and then ...... ?

I don't believe we have heard any confirmation of dragging bodies to the spot where they were found. However, they could have been moved by ATV, horse, trailer, etc.

No matter how this all came about, I cannot for the life of me come up with a motive for killing tow young teens.

You probably can't come up with a motive because you are a good person. We discussed several threads ago that to control both girls you only need to control one because they would never leave a friend behind, even if that was the only chance either of them had to survive. JMO but the timeline is too tight for these girls to have been murdered in a space of 45 minutes out in the open in broad daylight...I believe they were taken to someone's home and the bodies were transferred in the middle of the night after the search was called off... really horrifying.

Elley Mae · Mar 21, 2017

I have thought if the girls were found on the property between the bridge &RL's property would those people/person be in the spot light. Jmo

Nanjack00 said:
I don't know if this was ever shared.

Emily Longnecker WTHR
17 March at 21:37 ·
I'm back in Delphi tonight, where investigators spent the day searching the property of Ron Logan. He's the man on whose property, search crews found the bodies of Libby German and Abby Williams in a secluded and wooded area, 100 yards from Logan's home. Police say they've come back here after receiving information that has led them to believe some of the details Logan originally gave them, just don't add up. Still police caution people from jumping to any conclusions. They've searched other properties in this case too. Logan is in jail right now on an unrelated probation violation. I talked with his neighbor Marvin tonight who told me, "I think they're doing him more of a favor than they are harm because if they go back through and they can't find nothing, you have no right to accuse him of anything. I mean that was his property that could have been anybody's property."

Etilema · Mar 21, 2017

Spellbound said:
Why even attempt to take two girls at one time? How does one have total control over two people? Even with a gun, there must have been some time that he was preoccupied with one "hostage" (for lack of a better word) that may leave time for the second to run, scream, attack him. Did he tie or handcuff them together? Were their mouths covered to stifle screams? For some unknown reason, I don't feel this was a sexually motivated crime.

But another scenario I have contemplated is that the girls encountered someone they knew, even if not too well. Perhaps they asked to use a bathroom, or wandered over to look at the horses. Maybe they were offered hot chocolate or something along that line. Once the suspect had them inside (home, barn, shed?) he became stern and threatening, and then ...... ?

I don't believe we have heard any confirmation of dragging bodies to the spot where they were found. However, they could have been moved by ATV, horse, trailer, etc.

No matter how this all came about, I cannot for the life of me come up with a motive for killing tow young teens.

Since LE made the statement that Libby took the video in response to something about the situation on the bridge that didn't feel right (sorry, don't remember their exact words, but Libby was called a hero for her presence of mind), that would seem to rule out any and all scenarios where they went or were tricked into going somewhere for seemingly innocent reasons. JMO

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Bemused · Mar 21, 2017

tokyorose said:
I don't think they would have interviewed him on the 13th. LE was still under the impression then that the girls weren't in danger then, they weren't found on his property until noon on the 14th. He was only asked for his permission to search his property on the evening of the 13th.

I think it would be very sloppy police work not to talk to someone who lived on land so close to where the girls were last seen, particularly when the police thought they were just missing. Did you see them? Which direction were they going? Did you see anyone else with them?

moonriverfarm · Mar 21, 2017

If he (whoever he is) just wanted to kill these girls, he could have shot them on the bridge or under it. The fact that he walked them to a remote location indicates a sexual motive IMO.

gitana1 · Mar 21, 2017

Spellbound said:
Why even attempt to take two girls at one time? How does one have total control over two people? Even with a gun, there must have been some time that he was preoccupied with one "hostage" (for lack of a better word) that may leave time for the second to run, scream, attack him. Did he tie or handcuff them together? Were their mouths covered to stifle screams? For some unknown reason, I don't feel this was a sexually motivated crime.

But another scenario I have contemplated is that the girls encountered someone they knew, even if not too well. Perhaps they asked to use a bathroom, or wandered over to look at the horses. Maybe they were offered hot chocolate or something along that line. Once the suspect had them inside (home, barn, shed?) he became stern and threatening, and then ...... ?

I don't believe we have heard any confirmation of dragging bodies to the spot where they were found. However, they could have been moved by ATV, horse, trailer, etc.

No matter how this all came about, I cannot for the life of me come up with a motive for killing tow young teens.

I think it's a good possibility this wasn't sexually motivated either. Does anyone know if that was a part of the case involving Lyric and Elizabeth? A possible connection with that is something I can't eliminate.

BunnyHop · Mar 21, 2017

rocket said:
...watching Dr. Phil

:cheers:

barbarababe · Mar 21, 2017

Burnt Toast said:
so someone would commit a double homicide on his property, or try to implicate RL as the murderer all to stress him out so he dies early and they get the property or it goes for sale???

If that was the case, the person would have killed RL not the girls!

Elementarywatsonsir · Mar 21, 2017

Burnt Toast said:
so someone would commit a double homicide on his property, or try to implicate RL as the murderer all to stress him out so he dies early and they get the property or it goes for sale???

(Pulling mask off).....and they would have got away with it if it wasn't for those meddling kids. I say that with an overdose of sarcasm. This sounds like a storyline from scooby-doo.

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ninij9 · Mar 21, 2017

Elley Mae said:
This is what/where i am confused, if the SW is sealed how is it known what the probable cause is in reference too?

In reference to the murders?

In reference to the probation violation?

Jmo

Let stated it was directly related to homicide investigation.

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Oregonmama · Mar 21, 2017

gitana1 said:
It has to do with people stating that RL is much to sweet and honorable a man to be implicated in such a crime. The conversation went from there. Some pointed out that he has a rap sheet that, while it has nothing to do with sexual assault or murder, does show that the man has some serious issues. Others pointed out that anger and alcohol often go hand in hand. I agree with them and also pointed out that a rap sheet like his shows his serious issues correlate with a disdain for the the rights of others.

None of it implicates this man in any way in these murders. But it can point to some serious dysfunction which may be related to something having to do with this crime. Or not.

There is a difference, JMO. Yes I agree that RL has his issues with alcohol which is obvious with the suspension of his license and probation for a DUI but then it escalated in questioning his alibi. Yes, he was caught lying because deep down I think RL knew he would be in trouble in regards to his probation which is true due to his current state of legal drama. But in his initial interview he really looked really taken back about the girls being found on his property. Yes, criminals can be very good liars but he just does not fit the profile appearance wise and other things. I just strongly think RL owned the wrong property at the wrong time. Plus LE has stated several times not to jump to conclusions. I have read so many cases on WS where ppl that were part of SW's got literally screwed in a personal way by being harassed and their life crumbles from all the accusations

gitana1 · Mar 21, 2017

moonriverfarm said:
If he (whoever he is) just wanted to kill these girls, he could have shot them on the bridge or under it. The fact that he walked them to a remote location indicates a sexual motive IMO.

You have a point. But every attacker tends to move their victim. They are grabbed in one spot and the crime takes place in another. Even those with zero sexual component. He or she might have been afraid they'd be seen committing murder on a bridge. Or heard easily. Or didn;t want the bodies found right away.

FFH · Mar 21, 2017

Sorry if someone else already noticed this, but instead of a car in can see 1, possibly 2 other people in this photograph

TheOtherChristina · Mar 21, 2017

I'm still catching up, so I apologize if this has been answered already, but RL is 6'0". If you look at his arrest records, it's located in the detailed offender information. My iPad is acting up and I can't link, sorry.

cluciano63 · Mar 21, 2017

I am not surprised that the reward does not seem to have "worked" although for all we know, the tip that led to the search of RL's property was given with an eye on the reward. Imo, huge rewards bring more tips, but not better ones, as a rule. And anyone who knows for sure who killed these girls is at risk of being charged as an accomplice or for obstruction. Also, rewards are paid out after convictions and in a double murder case, we are looking at years down the road. It is not like you make the call and get a check to blow town and start fresh. Jmo

Safeguard · Mar 21, 2017

gitana1 said:
No. I don't know RL personally and don't believe I'm acting as if I do. But I feel I can come to certain judgments about people in general who have rap sheets like he does. And that judgment is that such a person has a problem that he or she has failed to rectify, despite the danger it causes to others.

My belief about the connection between arrests for DUIs and having a drug or alcohol problem is based on experience. Years of it. A record of a DUI or other drug or alcohol-related offense is evidence to a court that the person has a drug or alcohol problem and is a danger to a child (I do family law). When I screen my clients in custody cases I always start by asking:

1. Do either you or your ex have a criminal history?
2. Do either your your ex have a mental health diagnosis?
3. Have you or your ex ever had a domestic violence or civil harassment restraining order?
4. Do either you or your ex have any history of drug or alcohol treatment?

These are major factors that are relevant in custody cases.

My belief about the connection between alcohol abuse and anger issues and/or mental health problems is, however, not just based of years of experience analyzing these cases (which includes reviewing countless psych evaluations. It's also based on expert opinions - not my own:

https://books.google.com/books?hl=e...=onepage&q=homicidal behavior alcohol&f=false

http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&uid=1991-98239-000

http://www.jsad.com/doi/abs/10.15288/jsa.1985.46.279

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/004723529090002S

http://www.choosehelp.com/topics/an...derstand-alcohol-related-anger-and-aggression

And then there is also a correlation between sociopaths and alcohol/substance abuse:

https://news.vanderbilt.edu/2010/03...ek-rewards-no-matter-the-consequences-109865/

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18653-brain-chemical-is-reward-for-psychopathic-traits/

https://www.elementsbehavioralhealt...use-and-antisocial-personality-disorder-aspd/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2266219

Is RL an alcohol abusing, psychopathic killer? I have no idea. I don't have information showing that. But his rap sheet certainly shows that he has or had a major problem with alcohol that took precedence over the rights and safety of others. And the correlation between alcohol abuse and aggression, as well as personality disorders and alcohol abuse, show, IMO, that it is not insane to wonder.

bbm
Excellent post!
And the bolded portion is WHY RL character is worthy of scrutiny. imo.

Perfectly stated!

carbuff · Mar 21, 2017

gitana1 said:
I think it's a good possibility this wasn't sexually motivated either. Does anyone know if that was a part of the case involving Lyric and Elizabeth? A possible connection with that is something I can't eliminate.

That information has never been released to the public, but at least one parent talks about it being sexual.

Wsimm · Mar 21, 2017

Anadrol said:
My theory is, RL holds the key to finding BG. They are not the same guy, but RL is either knowingly or unknowingly helping conceal BG's identity. LE will search the property, find evidence to prove to RL that they know what he knows, and he'll help them track down the real perp.

That being said....even though I do NOT buy into the theory that RL did it, here would be the clues supporting that theory:

1. There are several parts of the pictures that link RL and BG as the same guy. The jeans, the gait, the tendency to pocket his left hand, the gut, the camo hat, the green strap on RL's chest, the layering, the body size, ALL of that makes me think these are the same guy. The one piece that doesn't fit is the age. I cannot make BG out to look over the age of 60 in my mind.

2. RL, being 77 and a known drinker might be crazy enough to make some of the odd mistakes we have seen to this point. Only a drunk, senile old loon would kill 2 people and then wear the same hat and gun holster the next day in a news interview. Only an old guy losing his grip on reality would not notice that his victim was filming him and then not take her phone when he left the scene. He would have to be so out of touch with technology that he didn't recognize the phone as being a video recording device and then so out of touch (and so "new" at murder) that he didn't bother to search them and destroy the cell phone.

3. I highly doubt this old 77 year old man was conveniently shopping for tropical fish at the perfect time of the murders. Does he have a badass fish tank? Is he a fish enthusiast? Prove it. I don't know any old farmer type dudes like this to have a dual interest in extreme drinking and tending aquariums.

4. You can tell this old dude has seen some hard work in his day. His hands are rough and his sleeves are rolled up in some pics. His boots are old and muddy. You know how they always say last thing to go on an old boxer is his power? That's very true. There are a lot of old Indiana farm boys that look like fat old men who can break you with their bare hands. Don't think this guy couldn't pull off this crime. 80 year old men kill deer in the woods, drag them a mile, hang them, and clean them with no help.

5. Police just took his damn truck. That seems odd to me. He's already got 3 DUI's, but they are just now taking his wheels? They expect to find something.

6. This might be the only human being on the planet who could actually keep watch on that bridge and strike a vulnerable victim when no one else was around. Anyone else would need to arrange this meeting with the victim ahead of time. He's the one guy who could stalk that spot regularly because he lives there.

Again, this is not my preferred theory. I'm just giving you this side of the coin

Great post! I absolutely agree with 4, 5, and 6!

AFTM · Mar 21, 2017

gitana1 said:
What if the killer controlled the victims with a gun? I don't think superhuman strength is needed for that. Especially when the victims are two scared, teenage girls.

I get why people are ruling him out. I understand many feel he doesn't look at all like BG or sound like him. And he hasn't even been named a suspect. But the facts of this case and the actions of LE show he is being investigated, and/or his property or someone who has access to that. So it clearly is not far fetched or illogical to consider a connection. Which, by the way, is all I think anyone has done. From what I've read, many are convinced there is no way this man could be involved and some even seem angry that others are considering it. However, no one on the other side of that coin is insisting he is involved. Just remaining open based on the few facts we have. I am in the latter camp. I don't have enough info to cast a judgment either way.

Finally, the scroll and roll option is always there.

I don't think he had the strength to carry girls... When my sister was murdered the man was trying to carry her in the woods over a stream and to a mine shaft. If he would of threw her body into one of those old mines the detective said we may have never found her. The detective said though that dead weight was very different to carry it is heavy. My sister weighed 105lbs when she died. Liberty weighed 200 lbs. A 28 year old very strong x convict that had only been out of jail 9 days murdered my sister..(in prison he worked out all the time). He had been drinking too. He could not carry my sister. So you tell me how a 77 year old man carried those girls in the woods.

Ask any detective about dead body weight...

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tokyorose · Mar 21, 2017

Bemused said:
I think it would be very sloppy police work not to talk to someone who lived on land so close to where the girls were last seen, particularly when the police thought they were just missing. Did you see them? Which direction were they going? Did you see anyone else with them?

All he would have to say was that he was in Lafayette all afternoon... which I believe is what he said. And they were last seen via snapchat on a public hiking trail, not on his land... as of the evening of the 13th. As of 6:30 pm when he arrived home, LE still thought the girls were not really in any danger.

IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 - #35

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