OH - Pike County: 8 people from one family dead as police hunt for killer(s) - #30

Anyone think this guy was involved? DeWine, et al said there was no connection, but use your own judgment.

http://www.lcsun-news.com/story/new...thout-parole-hatch-officers-murder/642320001/

An earlier article

http://www.lcsun-news.com/story/new.../99790430/?from=global&sessionKey=&autologin=

Watching a program this evening on Investigation Discovery. A guy that was outed as an informant was shot execution style by a gang. He was shot in the head five times.

followed this a year ago in media, and ran across this site last night. early on i came to a theory that still seems to fit even after skimming through drvelopments of past year per these threads:
1. W's are passionate bout family- their motive custody of S. JW aware of good jobs in AK, but no way hes getting sole custody regardless of more legal $. and no way he's leaving S.
2. M's are motivated by money and though aware of the MJ operation- feel slighted in some way- theres bad blood triggered by something but bottom line greed and anger to extent of even killing a family member. They also know custody battle is coming and the MJ operation will be outted by W's , so why not strike now and get all the profits that are stashed somewhere.
3. JM and JW (and maybe a few other family members- like brother who also wants to go to Alaska) decide to dispatch all Rs that could cobceivably wage a custody battle for S. At same time, they know drug $$$$ is hidden in cache but NOT on site in case operation is busted. they dispatch dogs who are friendly with them.
4. HR and mom etc are killed first in sleep. Next are brother and fiancee. Last is CR1 and cousin, but not til first they admit KR has ir knows where $$ is. (they beat them. )
5. lastly they go to KR and kill him and take $$ (LE said operation was $500,000+ in street value).
6. Both W and M family get what they want.
7. LE bugs truck to find out where it travels to when $$ is needed- suspect reburied somewhere. maybe even set up the $80k bail to flush out him raiding his piggy bank.

BJM aware of MJ operation- NOT going to "feed dogs" every morn when theres 6 others around to do that. More than one M is in on this in my opinion/theory.

Ws decide to ALL move up to AK now to get away from local heat (LE) where orig was just a short term plan for a few of them while made some good mechanic money in far north.

just a theory, but it intersects passion (custody) and greed perfectly - the two oldest motives for murder.

i also believe LE has largely solved this crime - they are just gathering all evidence, dotting i's and crossing t's. making plan of attack so the DA has solid case and they determine the order they want the dominos to fall. that takes a long time- it hasnt been that long fir a case of this magnitude. Patience!

wanted to add- the most problematical part of my theory above is how a M might come to the point of killing one of their own (if indeed that happened). But I could see it getting to that if Ms were so tied in to the illegal operation (and maybe most their means of support?) and it was all being threatened to be exposed in a custody battle.

Ms plead with DR to just have her daughter give up custody to Ws who are threatening to expose them. DR (and HR) says no way in hell. So Ms and Ws agree to do this thing together.

hope i'm wrong and its some drug cartel and they solve it.

jkltex said:

wanted to add- the most problematical part of my theory above is how a M might come to the point of killing one of their own (if indeed that happened). But I could see it getting to that if Ms were so tied in to the illegal operation (and maybe most their means of support?) and it was all being threatened to be exposed in a custody battle.

Ms plead with DR to just have her daughter give up custody to Ws who are threatening to expose them. DR (and HR) says no way in hell. So Ms and Ws agree to do this thing together.

hope i'm wrong and its some drug cartel and they solve it.

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It seems unlikely the M's were involved in any kind of drug activity. They're obviously low income, not many assets. Seldom had working cars. They couldn't afford an attorney for JM without someone helping out. If they were involved in some sort of drug trade, they would have more/better assets. It also seems very unlikely they would participate in the killing of their sister, nieces and nephews. Neither sibling has a much of a criminal history nor do they have violent tendencies.

As for LE, they've been dotting i's and crossing t's for at least a year now. They may still be holding their grand jury sessions with some of the more recent neighborhood drug busts. I don't see how those GJ sessions can yield anything helpful when they still haven't questioned anyone in the Wagner family - on whom they allegedly have a laser-focus. How do you focus on a suspect when you never question them? When you never call them before the grand jury convened to investigate these murders?

JMO, they're using the grand jury to keep a lid on info about the case and to keep the focus narrowed to a few low-level people. If LE and prosecutors could successfully pin this on a few locals while sparing all the big operators behind the scenes, they would be happy. That strategy doesn't seem to be working yet.

ETA: You don't have multiple grow ops in the region moving millions of dollars in MJ, plus opiods, pills, etc. without a very large operation with many bosses running the show. These are people who have to pay off judges, policemen, prosecutors; they have to launder millions in cash every month, either through local business and banks or by transporting cash long distances. The Rhoden killings were part of a very large network. They brought a lot of attention to an organized drug and crime network that has been operating undercover for a long time.

It can and probably already has been solved. The question is whether local LE, BCI and the AG's office want to solve all of it.

I've also been watching the Netflx series "Ozark".

https://www.netflix.com/title/80117552

It raises a lot of questions about the money laundering aspect of the drug trafficking in this region - SE & Central Ohio, northern KY, etc. Resorts, real estate, etc. in out of the way places are all ways to launder drug cash.

Canaille said:

Maybe it's the calm before the storm.

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One can hope.

amauet1 said:

Well since all we have is time, mayber we should start at the being again.
IMO:
Lies were told from the beginning, starting with the 911 call/calls. LE suspect the Manleys of something. I think they know more about this crime than they have told. I think all the Manley family knows by now. IMO they either knew about or found the bodies earlier than what was said. What's everyone else's thoughts on this?

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Agree. The timing just doesn't ad up and neither does some of the statements made. They were found on a Friday. Has anyone heard why that JM had not left for work? Why was he home that day?

DS, well, I can see him not going to work on a Friday, just a gut feeling, and hanging out to help fix a car, but, why would KR miss work that day to hang out fixing cars, when iirc, he'd just scored that job. Why did DS wander around and "find" that tray of plants and then decide to call LE?

As for BJM, I hear children in the background of her 911 call and her times do not add up.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything but some thangs just don't smell right.

amauet1 said:

IMO, all that was just for show. Trying to "smoke out" or "scare" the suspects. I would love to blame the Wagners for this crime. A lot of the "puzzle pieces" fit, but..... no arrests and it's not looking like there will be in the near future. I think the "big show" was part diversion and something to satisfy the public that things are still being investigated in this crime. What is going on with those autopsy's?????? There most be more to them, than what we tried to figure out on the redacted documents. I don't want to know for grissly details, I want to know because the more they fight to keep them away, the more curious it makes me. I think we would know actual time of death. From that we may be able to figure out sequence of the deaths. I don't understand why after this much time they have not reached out to the FBI or the public for more info. It makes no sense to me.
And now (IMO) LE can't lean on the Manley's anymore because they have a lawyer. Where did the money to pay a lawyer and bond for JM come from? Is it just a coinidence that they have retained the same lawyer that the Wagners have used in the past?
And I agree that someone in the media needs to step up and hold the powers that be accountable for the lack of information being held back in this case!!!!! My trust in our elected officials in Ohio is gone! I'm sorry people of Pike Co , but I would never recommend any family moving there and feeling safe for their family. All this is JMO.

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BBM

Look over here while we're doing something over there and no one will notice with all of the attention focused on those properties. Smoke and mirrors.

mountainmutt said:

The Wagners have no motive. They are a much more respected family than the Rhoadens. They would have ahuge advantage in a custody case especially when the Rhoadens involvement with drugs was brought to light.

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The case would not have been between the Rs and the Ws. It would have only been between the two parents. There was zero drugs found where S's Momma was living. None. She worked, and had apparently been mothering the older child for nearly three years while he was trying to become an OTR. They had exchanged weekly visits apparently amicably. Even if a court had given him custody it didn't mean that she wouldn't have had a lot of visitation, and there's usually a clause that he couldn't have moved outside a certain radius so as to not hinder visitation. Could the Ws have paid off a corrupt family court judge to get what they wanted? If so, it would have been a lot simpler than killing eight people.

rsd1200 said:

The case would not have been between the Rs and the Ws. It would have only been between the two parents. There was zero drugs found where S's Momma was living. None. She worked, and had apparently been mothering the older child for nearly three years while he was trying to become an OTR. They had exchanged weekly visits apparently amicably. Even if a court had given him custody it didn't mean that she wouldn't have had a lot of visitation, and there's usually a clause that he couldn't have moved outside a certain radius so as to not hinder visitation. Could the Ws have paid off a corrupt family court judge to get what they wanted? If so, it would have been a lot simpler than killing eight people.

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I think we have been discounting a few things in this case. I agree that money and passion are two motives for murder. The W's have both.


LM said that there was a confrontation between CR1 and BW in the days before the murder over custody of SW. IMO that was the incident LM talked about as occurring the weekend before when PCSO was called. IMO BW threatened the R's. That is why DR was upset and asking her deceased friend to protect the family. IMO the R's knew that the W's were dangerous people and that is why the R's were patrolling the road (I.E. the joyriding/IJ incident) in the weeks before their murders. But I think even at that the R's underestimated the danger from the W's.


We have discussed drug trafficking ect as a source of income for the W's, R's, and M,s. IMO I think the W's, R's, and M's were all involved in this enterprise. AW claimed BW and CR1 were best friends. The R's and M's were kin. I also think that all of AM's relatives who were recently busted on drug trafficking charges were involved in this ring. I think this was a large widespread operation that was run by someone with more brains than the M's and AM's family possessed since this apparently was an operation that had gone unnoticed by LE for some time. I think the W's are the ones who ran that operation while the rest were the worker bees.


IMO the R's knew that BW had the resources through his running of this operation to bring some harm to them (I.E. maybe a beating of CR1 or FR or even HR) but I don't think they ever imagined the W's would kill or order killed the entire family.


When the confrontation over custody of SW occurred in the weeks prior to the murders IMO CR1 threatened to bring down the entire operation if the W's pursued custody of SW. That would be a huge motive for BW to kill or order killed the R's, and also a motive for the M's (JM, AM and BJM) to help the W's do it by supplying information on the R's movements (I.E the text between JM and JW and the late night phone calls between AM and DR the night of the murders.) I will also throw in that IMO DS was also involved in supplying information about KR's movements in exchange for money or drugs.


As for those of you who think the W's were not involved then consider this. Why would BW pick up and move his family 4000 miles away when his father was so gravely ill? Indeed the elder W recently passed away. The elder W's have a huge horse ranch that appears to be worth millions with all the land and breeder stock. Who inherited when the elder W passed? Was SW in line for some money when her great grandfather passed?


All this is JMO.

rsd1200 said:

BBM

Look over here while we're doing something over there and no one will notice with all of the attention focused on those properties. Smoke and mirrors.

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IMO, there was some reason for the searches and it indicates the Wagner family may have been involved

1. They brought in multiple outside agencies - Columbus/Franklin County LE, security personnel from the prison system, etc. None of those agencies would have participated unless they had a valid search warrant.

2. They had to get a search warrant from a judge for 3 properties (Wagners & Flying W Farms, the trucking business north of Peebles). They would have to provide some kind of probable cause and evidence to the judge to justify the search warrant. Recall the spokesperson from the Franklin County SO originally was quoted saying their participation was to assist in a search related to the Rhoden murders. He stated (and then retracted) SWAT was used, but SWAT trucks appeared in news media footage.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/new...-away-scene-rhoden-family-massacre/101600436/

Judges don't casually hand out SW's for that large of a search involving multiple jurisdictions, etc. Not saying it wasn't a show, but it was done for a reason. IMO, the show was less distraction than to prove they're still working on the case. My theory is that some other LE agency was asking them why they hadn't searched those properties or questioned the Wagner family, probably the same agencies that arranged to have the Wagner family stopped and interrogated multiple times on their way to AK.

The drug busts that followed a few weeks later occurred on properties owned by the elder Wags family members.

DS behavior during discovery of KR and since has always been very suspicious, as is the fact that LE hasn't rattled his cage since in any way. Is it possible he was working as an informant? If so, was he working for BCI or the feds?

:moo:

Betty P said:

IMO, there was some reason for the searches and it indicates the Wagner family may have been involved

1. They brought in multiple outside agencies - Columbus/Franklin County LE, security personnel from the prison system, etc. None of those agencies would have participated unless they had a valid search warrant.

2. They had to get a search warrant from a judge for 3 properties (Wagners & Flying W Farms, the trucking business north of Peebles). They would have to provide some kind of probable cause and evidence to the judge to justify the search warrant. Recall the spokesperson from the Franklin County SO originally was quoted saying their participation was to assist in a search related to the Rhoden murders. He stated (and then retracted) SWAT was used, but SWAT trucks appeared in news media footage.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/new...-away-scene-rhoden-family-massacre/101600436/

Judges don't casually hand out SW's for that large of a search involving multiple jurisdictions, etc. Not saying it wasn't a show, but it was done for a reason. IMO, the show was less distraction than to prove they're still working on the case. My theory is that some other LE agency was asking them why they hadn't searched those properties or questioned the Wagner family, probably the same agencies that arranged to have the Wagner family stopped and interrogated multiple times on their way to AK.

The drug busts that followed a few weeks later occurred on properties owned by the elder Wags family members.

DS behavior during discovery of KR and since has always been very suspicious, as is the fact that LE hasn't rattled his cage since in any way. Is it possible he was working as an informant? If so, was he working for BCI or the feds?

:moo:

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BBM

Honestly though, it doesn't really take that much to get a search warrant these days. They handed out a warrant to track a vehicle, not a person, a vehicle, that they thought was tied into the case. That vehicle cannot speak so it can't tell tales of the past, nor does it make up it's mind as to where it is going or where it has been. They said that they didn't put that tracker on there to track JM (I call b.s.). That warrant was really pushing the line as far as I'm concerned.

As far as the property searches, the W's lawyer, has stated that the Ws have fully cooperated with LE. Note they did not search any of the homes. As we discussed a few months back, OP had said that an inmate was with LE at the search site. A search warrant can be issued based on hearsay, as long as it's sworn and written by the individual, and provides the "powers that be" reasonable grounds to grant the search warrant, yet that same hearsay, may not even be able to be used as evidence in a criminal trial. What does an inmate have to lose on spilling some hearsay? A ride around, a stop for some fast food (county jail food usually sux), a walk around outside, and if their tip turned up something? If they're awaiting trial, it might even be taken into consideration that they helped with such a case as this.

Clark said the family has "cooperated 110 percent" and have specifically:

http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/ohio...in-rhoden-case-that-moved-to-alaska/452709844

I don't think the "big show" was just for show. Expensive in time, money and risk.

If I could ask one question to the W family... "If you planned to move to AK before these murders, and had nothing to do with these murders, what were your plans to see little S after having moved so far away?"

Canaille said:

I don't think the "big show" was just for show. Expensive in time, money and risk.

If I could ask one question to the W family... "If you planned to move to AK before these murders, and had nothing to do with these murders, what were your plans to see little S after having moved so far away?"

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Maybe only S's grandparents were planning to move in the beginning. It's possible that they'd not planned to move til the grandchildren were older, or they would fly back to visit their family. One of my grandson's grandparents live far away and make planned visits to come here, or meet at relative's homes that are in another state, so they get to see their little nieces and nephews too. I personally wouldn't move away from parents, kids, and other family, but not everyone feels that way. I've a cousin who packed up her life, child, and with her new husband, at age 40, moved 1,000 miles away. She's never lived anywhere but here and all of her family are here. Talk about shocked. Her grandparents were just inconsolable. It's her life though. Kids move thousands of miles away to start new lives, as do parents, and grandparents, every day. After the murders, I don't find it odd at all that the W boys, especially JW, moved with their parents. I'd likely want to see OH in my rear-view mirror too.

rsd1200 said:

Maybe only S's grandparents were planning to move in the beginning. It's possible that they'd not planned to move til the grandchildren were older, or they would fly back to visit their family. One of my grandson's grandparents live far away and make planned visits to come here, or meet at relative's homes that are in another state, so they get to see their little nieces and nephews too. I personally wouldn't move away from parents, kids, and other family, but not everyone feels that way. I've a cousin who packed up her life, child, and with her new husband, at age 40, moved 1,000 miles away. She's never lived anywhere but here and all of her family are here. Talk about shocked. Her grandparents were just inconsolable. It's her life though. Kids move thousands of miles away to start new lives, as do parents, and grandparents, every day. After the murders, I don't find it odd at all that the W boys, especially JW, moved with their parents. I'd likely want to see OH in my rear-view mirror too.

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I know people do it all the time. They just don't strike me as the kind of people to move that far away from children/grandchildren. Especially AW. I can't see her moving that far from her mini-me.

Canaille said:

I know people do it all the time. They just don't strike me as the kind of people to move that far away from children/grandchildren. Especially AW. I can't see her moving that far from her mini-me.

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I'm like the Ws. I have mini-me. The child would live here if she were allowed. She did live with us for the first couple years of her life, along with our daughter, as both parents were young, and the relationship didn't last. During summer breaks she'll come and stay for a week or more. When her mother moved into the next county I was just lost for awhile. So I understand the mini-me thing. I wouldn't kill her other grandparents though, just because I wanted to move to another state.

I firmly believe there are suspects, W's in the mix. Daddy fighting CRSr, and custody. The move north cements that for me. I think what the snag is, is evidence and witnesses maybe. Much as I want arrests, I sure don't want the guilty getting away on a technicality or not enough evidence. Hang in there folks, I pray it happens. I tend to believe DeWine running for governor is key...in other words, he will use the case to his advantage. AND there is still officers working the case. My opinion.

Flatbush said:

I firmly believe there are suspects, W's in the mix. Daddy fighting CRSr, and custody. The move north cements that for me. I think what the snag is, is evidence and witnesses maybe. Much as I want arrests, I sure don't want the guilty getting away on a technicality or not enough evidence. Hang in there folks, I pray it happens. I tend to believe DeWine running for governor is key...in other words, he will use the case to his advantage. AND there is still officers working the case. My opinion.

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I don't think that the case is cold. I also don't believe that some of the Ws, Rs, Ms, and DS, know nothing about what happened. I don't know that they've knowingly helped to commit the murders but I do think they know more than they're letting on. In a family, which is seemingly that tight knit, someone knows something.

One thing that I just wondered about, after listening to other case 911 calls; Why did the 911 operator(s) not try to stay on the line with the callers? In other 911 calls the operator keeps asking them questions, talking them through things, until the LEOs arrive. I guess it's no big deal but I just found it curious.