Are the Ramseys involved or not?

BBB167893 · Feb 22, 2009

Holdontoyourhat said:
Its pretty evident that JBR's attacker caused injury. Injuries are described in the AR. The media has described blood mixed with DNA on her underwear. What do YOU call this?

There you go again, taking what I said out of context. I NEVER said it didn't cause an injury. It most certainly did. What I SAID was that it was not consistent with a true sexual assault.

Don't take my word for it. Yhe CASKU agents weighed in on the injuries from that night, saying:

"The sexual violation of JonBenet, whether pre or postmortem did not appear to have been committed for the perpetrators gratification. The penetration, which caused minor genital trauma, was more likely part of a staged crime scene intended to mislead the police."

More to the point, need I remind you of our little talk about Sarah Cherry? You take a look at the sex-assault murders of Sarah Cherry, Danielle Van Dam, Samantha Runnion, and a whole slew of others and what was done to their bodies. Then take a look at this one.

It's night and day.

Holdontoyourhat · Feb 22, 2009

SuperDave said:
"The sexual violation of JonBenet, whether pre or postmortem did not appear to have been committed for the perpetrators gratification. The penetration, which caused minor genital trauma, was more likely part of a staged crime scene intended to mislead the police."

OK I'll redo my statement:

We KNOW JBR had a deep furrow around her neck. We KNOW JBR had a skull fracture. We KNOW somebody risked handwriting the ransom note and practice notes. We KNOW that JBR was sexually violated the night she was murdered. We KNOW there was unknown male DNA found in three (3) places on two (2) articles of clothing she was wearing at the time she was murdered. This is stuff WE KNOW.

We DON'T KNOW if she was abused prior to that night, whether her sexual violation was pre or post mortem, if it was staged or real, what the purpose for it was, what caused the skull fracture, where the cord and tape came from, who owns the DNA, who wrote the note, who murdered JBR, whether they lived in the house, or even if they lived in the U.S. We DON'T KNOW any of this stuff. This is all opinion.

Better?

BBB167893 · Feb 23, 2009

Holdontoyourhat said:
OK I'll redo my statement:

We KNOW JBR had a deep furrow around her neck. We KNOW JBR had a skull fracture. We KNOW somebody risked handwriting the ransom note and practice notes. We KNOW that JBR was sexually violated the night she was murdered. We KNOW there was unknown male DNA found in three (3) places on two (2) articles of clothing she was wearing at the time she was murdered. This is stuff WE KNOW.

We DON'T KNOW if she was abused prior to that night, whether her sexual violation was pre or post mortem, if it was staged or real, what the purpose for it was, what caused the skull fracture, where the cord and tape came from, who owns the DNA, who wrote the note, who murdered JBR, whether they lived in the house, or even if they lived in the U.S. We DON'T KNOW any of this stuff. This is all opinion.

Better?

I can live with it.

Holdontoyourhat · Feb 23, 2009

We KNOW JBR had a deep furrow around her neck. We KNOW JBR had a skull fracture. We KNOW somebody risked handwriting the ransom note and practice notes. We KNOW that JBR was sexually violated the night she was murdered. We KNOW there was unknown male DNA found in three (3) places on two (2) articles of clothing she was wearing at the time she was murdered. This is stuff WE KNOW.

We also know the paintbrush was broken at both ends, and the broken off end piece with the bristles was found in the tote. We know the 2nd ligature had a double loop slip knot at one end and a fixed loop at the other. We know the 2nd ligature came from the same roll as the garrote ligature.

We know that the largest mark on JBR besides the cord furrow is the hemorrage on her neck, at the cord furrow.

We DON'T KNOW if she was abused prior to that night, whether her sexual violation was pre or post mortem, if it was staged or real, what the purpose for it was, what caused the skull fracture, where the cord and tape came from, who owns the DNA, who wrote the note, who murdered JBR, whether they lived in the house, or even if they lived in the U.S. We DON'T KNOW any of this stuff. This is all opinion.

We also DON'T KNOW if the 2nd ligature was tightened on JBR, or where the other broken off end piece of the paintbrush is.

BBB167893 · Feb 23, 2009

You've made your point.

Holdontoyourhat · Feb 23, 2009

We KNOW JBR had a deep furrow around her neck. We KNOW JBR had a skull fracture. We KNOW somebody risked handwriting the ransom note and practice notes. We KNOW that JBR was sexually violated the night she was murdered. We KNOW there was unknown male DNA found in three (3) places on two (2) articles of clothing she was wearing at the time she was murdered. This is stuff WE KNOW.

We also know the paintbrush was broken at both ends, and the broken off end piece with the bristles was found in the tote. We know the 2nd ligature had a double loop slip knot at one end and a fixed loop at the other. We know the 2nd ligature came from the same roll as the garrote ligature.

We know that the largest mark on JBR besides the cord furrow is the hemorrhage on her neck, at the cord furrow.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

We DON'T KNOW if she was abused prior to that night, whether her sexual violation was pre or post mortem, if it was staged or real, what the purpose for it was, what caused the skull fracture, where the cord and tape came from, who owns the DNA, who wrote the note, who murdered JBR, whether they lived in the house, or even if they lived in the U.S. We DON'T KNOW any of this stuff. This is all opinion.

We also DON'T KNOW if the 2nd ligature was tightened on JBR, or where the other broken off end piece of the paintbrush is.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Based only on the knowns, and without making any inferences (I know its hard), what is the predominate crime?

Tadpole12 · Feb 23, 2009

SuperDave said:
Just remember, Tadpole: the case is in new hands now. Let's see what THEY make of it! IOWs, it ain't over 'til it's over.

Hi SD.
Ya .... for sure.

Hi Hotyhl

I was thinking about you, (good things) in lieu of the 'dramatic' recent turn in the Chandra Levy Murder case, HLN blasts - "Arrest is Imminent" ...
Just thought of the parallels of the two cases: media sensation, misperceptions? re Gary Condit .... perp sitting in jail, confessed to crime years ago .....

DeeDee249 · Feb 23, 2009

We DO know that there were some vaginal injuries that were NOT postmortem. The bruising, for one- bruising does not occur after death. The hymenal erosion occurred over time, and certainly not postmortem. The hyperemia and vascular congestion do not occur in a dead person.
I will concede only that some deliberate injury MAY have caused the bleeding, and was done only to hide the fact that whoever did it knew there was some previous vaginal penetration that may be discovered.

BBB167893 · Feb 23, 2009

Holdontoyourhat said:
We KNOW JBR had a deep furrow around her neck. We KNOW JBR had a skull fracture. We KNOW somebody risked handwriting the ransom note and practice notes. We KNOW that JBR was sexually violated the night she was murdered. We KNOW there was unknown male DNA found in three (3) places on two (2) articles of clothing she was wearing at the time she was murdered. This is stuff WE KNOW.

We also know the paintbrush was broken at both ends, and the broken off end piece with the bristles was found in the tote. We know the 2nd ligature had a double loop slip knot at one end and a fixed loop at the other. We know the 2nd ligature came from the same roll as the garrote ligature.

We know that the largest mark on JBR besides the cord furrow is the hemorrhage on her neck, at the cord furrow.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

We DON'T KNOW if she was abused prior to that night, whether her sexual violation was pre or post mortem, if it was staged or real, what the purpose for it was, what caused the skull fracture, where the cord and tape came from, who owns the DNA, who wrote the note, who murdered JBR, whether they lived in the house, or even if they lived in the U.S. We DON'T KNOW any of this stuff. This is all opinion.

We also DON'T KNOW if the 2nd ligature was tightened on JBR, or where the other broken off end piece of the paintbrush is.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I think your record is stuck.

Based only on the knowns, and without making any inferences (I know its hard)

Damn hard!

what is the predominate crime?

A killing. In case you hadn't noticed, we all knew that. (Kinda why we're here to begin with.)

Holdontoyourhat · Feb 24, 2009

SuperDave said:
A killing. In case you hadn't noticed, we all knew that. (Kinda why we're here to begin with.)

A 'killing' is about as vague as you can get. After all these years, you're able to say that JBR was 'killed' and thats it? At least its better than 'she was accidentally killed'.

If you go by the known facts and make no inferences, it was predominately a sex crime. More so than a hate crime (fat cats), or an extortion crime (ransom note).

Tadpole12 · Feb 24, 2009

predominately a sex crime, more so than a hate crime (fat cats), or an extortion crime (ransom note). - Hotyh

Ya, for sure, visually, a sex crime.

but, (and this is rather morbid? of me) but for amount of time spent per 'criminal' act, with the only evidence of a 'sexual act' being the penetration with the paintbrush (no semen, no saliva, no evidence within the autopsy report of other sexual contact ie damage to the soft palate), it seems to me it may have taken more time to write the note than to violate JBR?

and then there's the time spent wiping and dressing the child, and wrapping her in the blanket.

[plus the hair do thing? is that a fact?]

Indigo · Feb 24, 2009

Holdontoyourhat said:
It seems you're wondering why I'm against the chronic abuse idea, when an intruder could've been the one chronically abusing JBR. Is that right?

Its a good question with an easy answer for me. I believe that FFDI (foreign faction did it), and it could be characterized as a 'mission'. Before you laugh, there is a 'mission serial killer' type, and that isn't ruled out.

Meantime, there really hasn't been a peep out of the local group about any prior abuse on JBR. Prior abuse isn't really a 'case fact'.

(bold mine)

The truth about JonBenet's chronic abuse didn't come from the armchair. It came from the lead detective and a panel of pediatric experts in this case.

NOTE: The following contains graphic descriptions which may offend some posters.

<snipped>

In mid-September, a panel of pediatric experts from around the country reached one of the major conclusions of the investigation--that JonBenet had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day she was killed.

There were no dissenting opinions among them on this issue, and they firmly rejected any possibility that the trauma to the hymen and chronic vaginal inflammation were caused by urination issues or masturbation. We gathered affidavits stating in clear language that there were injuries "consistent with prior trauma and sexual abuse"..."Past violation of the vagina"...In other words, the doctors were saying it happened before..."

http://books.google.com/books?id=daO2GRk7iocC&pg=RA3-PA253&dq=panel+experts+jonbenet

page 253 of JonBenet--Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation by Steve Thomas, Don A. Davis

BBB167893 · Feb 24, 2009

Holdontoyourhat said:
A 'killing' is about as vague as you can get.

I thought that's what you wanted.

After all these years, you're able to say that JBR was 'killed' and thats it?

Heck, NO! I can say a lot more than that!

At least its better than 'she was accidentally killed'.

I refer you to the pathologists.

If you go by the known facts and make no inferences, it was predominately a sex crime.

Here's a KNOWN fact: JB was found completely dressed. Her injuriy was not immediately visible. Conversely, Sarah Cherry, Danielle Van Dam and Samantha Runnion were left only partially clothed. The ravages of their attackers were clear to all.

Here another KNOWN fact: JB was found inside her home. None of those others were. They were dumped out in the elements like bags of garbage.

Here's a third KNOWN fact: when a kid is killed, 11 times out of 12, the parent(s) did it.

More so than a hate crime (fat cats), or an extortion crime (ransom note).

No comment.

BBB167893 · Feb 24, 2009

Tadpole12 said:
predominately a sex crime, more so than a hate crime (fat cats), or an extortion crime (ransom note). - Hotyh

Ya, for sure, visually, a sex crime.

but, (and this is rather morbid? of me) but for amount of time spent per 'criminal' act, with the only evidence of a 'sexual act' being the penetration with the paintbrush (no semen, no saliva, no evidence within the autopsy report of other sexual contact ie damage to the soft palate), it seems to me it may have taken more time to write the note than to violate JBR?

Exactly right.

and then there's the time spent wiping and dressing the child, and wrapping her in the blanket.

Right again.

BBB167893 · Feb 24, 2009

Indigo said:
(bold mine)

The truth about JonBenet's chronic abuse didn't come from the armchair. It came from the lead detective and a panel of pediatric experts in this case.

NOTE: The following contains graphic descriptions which may offend some posters.

<snipped>

In mid-September, a panel of pediatric experts from around the country reached one of the major conclusions of the investigation--that JonBenet had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day she was killed.
There were no dissenting opinions among them on this issue, and they firmly rejected any possibility that the trauma to the hymen and chronic vaginal inflammation were caused by urination issues or masturbation. We gathered affadavits stating in clear language that there were injuries "consistent with prior trauma and sexual abuse"..."Past violation of the vagina"...In other words, the doctors were saying it happened before..."

http://books.google.com/books?id=daO2GRk7iocC&pg=RA3-PA253&dq=panel+experts+jonbenet

page 253 of JonBenet--Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation by Steve Thomas, Don A. Davis

You're wasting your time, Indigo...

Indigo · Feb 24, 2009

SuperDave said:
You're wasting your time, Indigo...

LOL. It's okay...for the new posters who may not know where the info originally came from.

BBB167893 · Feb 24, 2009

Indigo said:
LOL. It's okay...for the new posters who may not know where the info originally came from.

Works for me!

weasel · Feb 24, 2009

Indigo said:
(bold mine)

The truth about JonBenet's chronic abuse didn't come from the armchair. It came from the lead detective and a panel of pediatric experts in this case.

NOTE: The following contains graphic descriptions which may offend some posters.

<snipped>

In mid-September, a panel of pediatric experts from around the country reached one of the major conclusions of the investigation--that JonBenet had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day she was killed.

There were no dissenting opinions among them on this issue, and they firmly rejected any possibility that the trauma to the hymen and chronic vaginal inflammation were caused by urination issues or masturbation. We gathered affidavits stating in clear language that there were injuries "consistent with prior trauma and sexual abuse"..."Past violation of the vagina"...In other words, the doctors were saying it happened before..."

http://books.google.com/books?id=daO2GRk7iocC&pg=RA3-PA253&dq=panel+experts+jonbenet

page 253 of JonBenet--Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation by Steve Thomas, Don A. Davis

What does this prove exactly? Even if JB was being sexually abused, is that automatic proof that it was someone in her own family? Hardly. The Ramsey's hired plenty of people to work around their house for instance. Gardners and such. Not to mention their social network. And I'm sorry, but please don't quote Steve Thomas' book as a source. That's about as biased and one-sided as you can get.

Holdontoyourhat · Feb 24, 2009

SuperDave said:
Here's a KNOWN fact: JB was found completely dressed. Her injuriy was not immediately visible. Conversely, Sarah Cherry, Danielle Van Dam and Samantha Runnion were left only partially clothed. The ravages of their attackers were clear to all.

Here another KNOWN fact: JB was found inside her home. None of those others were. They were dumped out in the elements like bags of garbage.

Here's a third KNOWN fact: when a kid is killed, 11 times out of 12, the parent(s) did it.

We KNOW that JBR was first seen by LE dressed in long johns, pajamas, and she was wrapped in a blanket. We KNOW the cord was visible, still tight around her neck. We KNOW she was wearing a necklace.

We KNOW that JBR was left in the basement of her own house, and not in plain view.

GingBreade · Feb 24, 2009

Holdontoyourhat said:
We KNOW that JBR was first seen by LE dressed in long johns, pajamas, and she was wrapped in a blanket. We KNOW the cord was visible, still tight around her neck. We KNOW she was wearing a necklace.

We KNOW that JBR was left in the basement of her own house, and not in plain view.

How about the third known fact? It is usually the parents.

Are the Ramseys involved or not?

Are the Ramseys involved or not?

The Ramseys are somehow involved in the crime and/or cover-up

The Ramseys are not involved at all in the crime or cover-up

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