Are the Ramseys involved or not?

I am pretty certain that this has been pointed out before, but Patsy was a Journalism major at college. I am just watching a news review in which the newscaster referred to an incident being attributed to an Israeli 'faction.' It's pretty much bog standard journalese, surely?

Holdontoyourhat said:

What do you say after it is discovered the RN author is in fact an authority figure or commander from a small foreign faction who believes in immediate executions?

Oops?

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:waitasec: Say what?

Tadpole12 said:

only have one quibble with what you say, Tadpole: there IS no 1-5 scale. That was just something the mercenaries JR hired dreamed up. - SD

Ty SD, for the insight.

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Patsy+Ramsey+as+RN+Author

testimony of Alex Hunter -- A. I have. Q. --that is part of Defendant's Exhibit 9; have you not? A. Yes. Q. And you understand that from Alex Hunter's perspective, the sum total of the handwriting analysis done by the investigation on Patsy Ramsey was that she was somewhere at about a 4.5 on a 1 to 5 scale, with 5 being elimination. A. (Nods head). Q. Do you not, sir? A. That's what he says. Q. Thus, that from Alex Hunter's perspective, Patsy Ramsey was not eliminated by the experts chosen by the district attorney, but she was close to elimination; correct? A. That's what he says, yes."

4.5 meaning...what? - Hotyh

Patsy Ramsey Statement. From Larry King Live (3/28/2000): "KING: Is your handwriting cleared, both of you? P. RAMSEY: John's definitively was cleared. And I scored a 4.5 out of 5. Five is definitely no match, and it just..." CNN RUSH transcript (html). On Larry King Live (4/14/2000), Steve Thomas stated: "Well, they're saying that she scored a numerical scale of 4 1/2, but that apparently is from their own defense handwriting experts."


Ya, trying to grasp all the material on line ..... I guess I was thinking of the CBI analysis rather than AH assessment.

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No sweat. AH himself in April of 2000 said that he thought the whole scale was nonsense. He wanted to let a jury make up its own mind from a visual display.

As for the CBI analysis, the closest we have is Ubowski saying that it was only the bleeding ink and disguised letters that kept him from clearly identifying her, per FOXNews.

But my basic point is that the rn may be reanalysised and change PR status.

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It might be at that.

Holdontoyourhat said:

What do you say after it is discovered the RN author is in fact an authority figure or commander from a small foreign faction who believes in immediate executions?

Oops?

Click to expand...

Jumping the gun a bit, aren't we?

Sophie said:

I am pretty certain that this has been pointed out before, but Patsy was a Journalism major at college. I am just watching a news review in which the newscaster referred to an incident being attributed to an Israeli 'faction.' It's pretty much bog standard journalese, surely?

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Yeah, it is.

Another thing to keep in mind: 1996, the year this killing happened, was a milestone in that it was really the first time the name "Osama bin Laden" began to be heard in mainstream America. He'd been known to covert operatives before then, but 1996 was when he settled in Afghanistan. Summer of 1996 was bin Laden's breakout, as it were.

Holdontoyourhat said:

These two excerpts seem to contradict one another.

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You don't know the half of it!

The first describes results from the DA's hired expert, the 2nd describes results from R defense experts. Which expert is the 4.5 from?

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The R defense expert, given what we know from other sources.

http://www.chymist.com/HANDWRITING%20ANALYSIS.pdf

<<SNIPPED>>

Disguised Writing​

If a suspect attempts to disguise their writing, they will generally exhibit inconsistent slant and
letter formations with a major change in the size of their letters. Capital letters will be different
and they often will use block lettering. As they write, there will be a lack of rhythm, irregular
spacing, and unnatural starts and stops. Occasionally they will add excessive ornamentation.​

Some individuals will try to write with the wrong hand.


Does any of this sound familiar?

http://cvit.iiit.ac.in/papers/Sachin07Repudiation.pdf

<<SNIPPED>>



identification

SuperDave said:

Jumping the gun a bit, aren't we?

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Thats EXACTLY what I thought when I read that some LE professionals have simply disregarded all RN statements out-of-hand, with no rational cause to do so. Now that the RN expressions are mentally disregarded by almost everyone, to go back to the RN for clues as to its origin is met with fierce opposition, as if nobody, not even JR, believes anything that it says!

Here I thought that investigation was supposed to be a thourough process, and instead you've got LE making unprofessional remarks like 'its always the parents' and 'that RN is bogus'.

In light of new DNA evidence, the RN should have greater weight. Giving the RN greater weight, the RN author is a commander/authority figure over a foreign faction that utilizes on the spot executions. Are you aware that many of those actually do exist? Not so many include children in their politics though.

Talk about jumping the gun, thats a riot coming from RDI!

But it wasn't an "on the spot execution". Can you really argue with a straight face that a small foreign faction took JBR out of bed, fed her pineapple and then hung around for an hour or two before deciding to execute her? Really?

TinaD said:

But it wasn't an "on the spot execution". Can you really argue with a straight face that a small foreign faction took JBR out of bed, fed her pineapple and then hung around for an hour or two before deciding to execute her? Really?

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On the spot execution simply means an execution without a trial. Obviously there was no trial, therefore it could be an 'on the spot execution', synonymous with 'immediate execution' that was referenced in the RN.

Small foreign faction is what the RN author called themselves. If you turn around and instead call the foreign faction 'parents' and it ulitmately turns out to be small foreign faction just like the RN said, then what do you say? Can YOU really argue with direct, written statements made by someone KNOWN to be connected to a child murder?

Its not like you know any of the RN statements are untrue.

Besides, you're making statements that I won't argue. That the perps 'hung around' for an hour or two' doing nothing is your characterization, not mine. And so is 'then deciding to execute' since I don't know if they 'decided to execute,' or simply decided to kill her, or had planned to kill her all along.

The fact that JBR ate the pineapple an hour or two before dying is established by the autopsy report. In your theory, what were the SFF doing during that time, and why didn't JBR make any noise?

Holdontoyourhat said:

These two excerpts seem to contradict one another.

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Hey Hotyh.
Contrary. Ya. As with all things JBR.

Holdontoyourhat said:

The first describes results from the DA's hired expert, the 2nd describes results from R defense experts. Which expert is the 4.5 from?

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Ah! ... SD and Ames were kind enough to cover that in subsequent posts.
TY. TY.

Sorry, Hotyh I had meant to reply, I was searching for a better link to express my thoughts about the rn and then I pooped out.



Hotyh. I reread the Db article and some of JR 'suspicions' are comparable to the character development in you SSF scenario re vendetta angle and hired 2nd party,

JR on Lingering suspect .... ('inside job'): good read, http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...exonerated-in-the-murder-of-his-daughter/full


* Despite the new evidence, Ramsey is still haunted by suspicions that a close friend with access to the house had some role in the murder, and he questions this person’s alibi.

.....The discovery of DNA from an "unidentified male" in three places on JonBenet's long johns allowed investigators to rule out the possibility that a single sample of this DNA found earlier belonged to a worker at a clothing factory (this was the original police theory). They also concluded that this stranger—not any of the people in the Ramseys’ circle, who were previously tested—was the murderer.
Yet Ramsey’s suspicions persist. Asked directly if he thinks this acquaintance killed JonBenet, Ramsey says, "Oh, I don't think so, But then he proceeds to poke holes in the man’s alibi and describe how the Boulder police botched the investigation from the beginning.

.....Asked about the new samples of “stranger” DNA, Michael, who was the pilot of John Ramsey’s King Air jet, adds, “perhaps this person's DNA was not found because he hired someone to do it for him."

.....For solace, he goes every Sunday to a small church nearby, just as he did with Patsy. He obsessively reads the theology books that line the sunroom: Max Lucado, C.S Lewis, even Billy Graham. Having seen true evil, he is trying to find "an intellectual rather than an emotional basis for believing in God."

JR: "Then, later, they took 200 DNA samples and one by one they purportedly eliminated our friends and acquaintances so they could investigate the only people they really thought had done it—us. And our DNA wasn't even found on our child's body!"

....Burke saw a child psychologist for two years.



....Pam Archuleta ** saw a fatigue in JonBenet during the last months of her life. "She had this haunted, defeated look. She looked frozen when she got that beauty queen attitude on. I think she was just plain worn out.”

....In his campaign for a larger DNA database, John Ramsey points out that thousands of rapes and murders can be prevented, for such criminals often strike many times. “DNA can, of course, exonerate people as well," he says wryly

JR: “The last hope I have,” he says, is that “one day I will get a call from somewhere in the country and a voice will say, 'We know who killed your daughter.'"





So who's JR speculating about*( or is it a blanket accusation), and what the heck is PA** talking about? Such an odd statement about JBR.

http://members.tripod.com/~deadw/

Female Execution Scenes in Movies and TV; decapitation, garrotte

SuperDave said:

Yeah, it is.

Another thing to keep in mind: 1996, the year this killing happened, was a milestone in that it was really the first time the name "Osama bin Laden" began to be heard in mainstream America. He'd been known to covert operatives before then, but 1996 was when he settled in Afghanistan. Summer of 1996 was bin Laden's breakout, as it were.

Click to expand...

I didn't realise that. So terrorism and antipathy from foreigners would be at the forefront of the RN-writer's mind if they had even a passing interest in current affairs.

I have always thought that the letter looked to be Patsy all over and I really don't think that anyone outside the house wrote the note. However, in fairness to HOTYH, I must say that one thing gave me pause when I first saw this note. One of the Dollar signs looks like it started as a Pound sign. I worked in an investment bank during college vacations in the mid-90s and had to fax/e mail details of transactions to the New York branches quite often. More often than not, I'd start writing a Pound sign then remember to change it to Dollar - and the resulting scrawl looked very much like that sign in the RN.

Tadpole12 said:

http://members.tripod.com/~deadw/

Female Execution Scenes in Movies and TV; decapitation, garrotte

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Tadpole, your frame of reference is enormous! Quite a Renaissance person!

Ames said:

http://www.chymist.com/HANDWRITING%20ANALYSIS.pdf

<<SNIPPED>>

Disguised Writing​

If a suspect attempts to disguise their writing, they will generally exhibit inconsistent slant and
letter formations with a major change in the size of their letters. Capital letters will be different
and they often will use block lettering. As they write, there will be a lack of rhythm, irregular
spacing, and unnatural starts and stops. Occasionally they will add excessive ornamentation.​

Some individuals will try to write with the wrong hand.


Does any of this sound familiar?

Click to expand...

That rings a bell!

Holdontoyourhat said:

Thats EXACTLY what I thought when I read that some LE professionals have simply disregarded all RN statements out-of-hand, with no rational cause to do so. Now that the RN expressions are mentally disregarded by almost everyone, to go back to the RN for clues as to its origin is met with fierce opposition, as if nobody, not even JR, believes anything that it says!

Click to expand...

I had a feeling you'd say that. "No rational cause," eh?

Here I thought that investigation was supposed to be a thourough process,

Click to expand...

I would dare say it's more thorough than chopping the RN up like a cow in a slaughterhouse.

and instead you've got LE making unprofessional remarks like 'its always the parents' and 'that RN is bogus'.

Click to expand...

UNPROFESSIONAL?! Based on what?

In light of new DNA evidence, the RN should have greater weight.

Click to expand...

I completely agree, but NOT the way you're thinking!

Giving the RN greater weight, the RN author is a commander/authority figure over a foreign faction that utilizes on the spot executions. Are you aware that many of those actually do exist?

Click to expand...

Aware of it?! I can NAME them!

Not so many include children in their politics though.

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I don't know about that. The PLO targets children as a matter of course, the Sendero Luminoso routinely decapitated babies, and the Iraqi Al-Qaeda uses them as miniature suicide bombers, much like the Viet Cong a generation ago.

Talk about jumping the gun, thats a riot coming from RDI!

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Sticks and stones.

Tadpole12 said:

Ah! ... SD and Ames were kind enough to cover that in subsequent posts.
TY. TY.

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I'm sure Ames will agree that it was a pleasure!

As for the article, I'm sure JR is just hedging his bets. I sure would if I were in his position.

.....For solace, he goes every Sunday to a small church nearby, just as he did with Patsy. He obsessively reads the theology books that line the sunroom: Max Lucado, C.S Lewis, even Billy Graham. Having seen true evil, he is trying to find "an intellectual rather than an emotional basis for believing in God."

That one caught my eye! C.S. Lewis was the writer of "The Chronicles of Narnia," a fantasy series similar to that of "The Lord of the Rings," written by Lewis's close friend J.R.R. Tolkien. Now, HERE's where it gets interesting! Lewis and Tolkien belonged to (drum-roll please!) the Tea-Club of the Borovian Society.

Take a look at those letters! TCBS...HMM! Mix them around a bit: SBTC. HMM!

JR: "Then, later, they took 200 DNA samples and one by one they purportedly eliminated our friends and acquaintances so they could investigate the only people they really thought had done it—us!"

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Another myth accepted as truth.

....Pam Archuleta ** saw a fatigue in JonBenet during the last months of her life. "She had this haunted, defeated look. She looked frozen when she got that beauty queen attitude on. I think she was just plain worn out.”

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Tadpole, take a look at something else Pam Archuletta had to say:

Even Patsy expressed occasional doubts about the effect of the circuit on her daughter: "She is too friendly, just too friendly with people," she told Michael and Pam. “She flirts with people.”

That one sent my inner alarm ringing like an air-raid siren! Tell me, folks, what kind of SIX-YEAR-OLD is "too friendly with people" and "flirts?"

Don't wrack your brains; I'll tell you flat-out! That is one of THE CLASSIC SIGNS of a sexually abused child! Don't take my word for it either!

JR: “The last hope I have,” he says, is that “one day I will get a call from somewhere in the country and a voice will say, 'We know who killed your daughter.'"

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He may get his wish if I ever find a publisher...

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