Air France Plane Goes Missing Over Atlantic

[browneyes]

Wow, this is such a tragedy. I didn't fly the first time until I was 41...because I was too afraid. I love to fly now, although this tragedy has me a little unnerved.
If it was an act of terrorism, does anyone think the "party" that did it would have claimed responsibility by now?
Prayers to all the families involved.

[Trino]

Nothing, of course, will bring back loved ones. Most of us would say it's not worth it to locate the black boxes, but this will come down to liability. If AF 447 was a natural disaster, most likely AF's compensation will be very limited. However, If AF 447 was a malfunction, $$$. It's the kind of world we live in.

[fortytwo]

Originally Posted by Trino

Nothing, of course, will bring back loved ones. Most of us would say it's not worth it to locate the black boxes, but this will come down to liability. If AF 447 was a natural disaster, most likely AF's compensation will be very limited. However, If AF 447 was a malfunction, $$$. It's the kind of world we live in.

I hope that they find what they can so that they can pin down the cause of the event, because it might help to prevent a similar tragedy from happening again.

[panthera]

Originally Posted by fortytwo

I hope that they find what they can so that they can pin down the cause of the event, because it might help to prevent a similar tragedy from happening again.

Exactly!

[scandi]

Originally Posted by Trino

Nothing, of course, will bring back loved ones. Most of us would say it's not worth it to locate the black boxes, but this will come down to liability. If AF 447 was a natural disaster, most likely AF's compensation will be very limited. However, If AF 447 was a malfunction, $$$. It's the kind of world we live in.

Thanks Trino. I didn't even think of that ;}

[Trino]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090604/...a/brazil_plane

Story detailing the last minutes. It appears the entire episode took 4 minutes, i.e. story says ten minutes after the 11:00p transmission. The last automated message was at 11:14p. My thoughts are with the passengers. I pray those aboard had little time to react.

[panthera]

Originally Posted by Trino

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090604/...a/brazil_plane

Story detailing the last minutes. It appears the entire episode took 4 minutes, i.e. story says ten minutes after the 11:00p transmission. The last automated message was at 11:14p. My thoughts are with the passengers. I pray those aboard had little time to react.

With the complete systems failure, it's likely the oxygen masks didn't deploy, combined with loss of cabin pressure they would've been unconscious within seconds. At least I pray that's what happened. This incident, with the likely breakup of the aircraft, is so eerily reminiscent of TWA800 only at a higher altitude.

God Bless them.

[SeekingJana]

Some friends of mine who are international pilots for a major airline think this might be a terrorist act. They say there's no way in HELL they would fly into a 100 MPH storm in that region over the freaking Atlantic Ocean. NO WAY. And one pilot has over 25 years, and holds a very long individual private pilot speed record at Oshkosh. These aren't " cowboys" but the best of the best of our airline pilots. IF they would divert as far as necessary to avoid a header like the one which AF 447 supposedly flew into, then something is seriously wrong with prudent procedure somewhere.. and the pilot was very experienced, they say.

There are eyewitness accounts which also state that there WAS evidence of fire, which is contrary to the article last linked on Yahoo. The Lufshansa Airlines pilots on two separate flights that night saw " the ocean on fire" in that region. If that doesn't address the issue of eyewitness evidence of an intense fire, in the ocean, in an intense storm, I don't know what does.

Regardless, nothing will bring back the lost.. The young, the talented, the seniors going on vacation, the executives, the families. So many lives lost, so many families torn apart..

I've flown Air France, and love the airline. I am sure the crew was experienced. IF there is a system back-up flaw or malfunction in the Aerobus 330 ( or Airbus 330 in US English) in inclement weather, they need to be hauling a few in out of the working fleets from all major purchasers for electro-static and electromagnetic loading and testing. There was one near- failure due to strong electomagnetic fields at a military base. This concerns me.. If I know it, so do the nuts who would kill innocent people out of madness.


IF it is terrorism, I hope it is not covered up. A Continental pilot out of Houston reported some sort of projectile ( missle, rocket, or other surface to ar weapon) sighted on a flight this past week in Lincoln Co, TX.
The pilot is ex-military, so I tend to think he knows what he saw. I feel that the episode is being covered up.. that he is being ridiculed in the MSM.
We all need to pay attention.

[fortytwo]

Originally Posted by SeekingJana

<snip>

There are eyewitness accounts which also state that there WAS evidence of fire, which is contrary to the article last linked on Yahoo. The Lufshansa Airlines pilots on two separate flights that night saw " the ocean on fire" in that region. If that doesn't address the issue of eyewitness evidence of an intense fire, in the ocean, in an intense storm, I don't know what does.

<snip>

(bold above by me)

Have you got any links to these witness reports? They will be very interesting reading.

[JBean]

Originally Posted by fortytwo

(bold above by me)

Have you got any links to these witness reports? They will be very interesting reading.

I also read these reports abut the ocean fires early on. but I thought they turned out to be in the wrong area. i can't recall but I will see what I can find.

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article....&in_page_id=34
Pilots flying a commercial jet from Paris to Rio de Janeiro for Brazil's largest airline, TAM, said they saw what they thought was fire in the ocean along the Air France plane's route.

[SeekingJana]

Originally Posted by fortytwo

(bold above by me)

Have you got any links to these witness reports? They will be very interesting reading.

They were the very first reports by the MSM. Will Google it for you and see what's still online. The things I am finding at this late date have extensive editing to add the specifics released by AF regarding the plane, crew, passengers, the storm.
However, at first, these were the reports coming in during the middle of the first night the plane went down:


"A Brazilian air force spokesman said the pilot of a TAM airliner saw what looked like fire on the water along the Air France jet's flight path.
That pilot "saw several orange points on the ocean while flying over the region," said the spokesman. Col. Jorge Amaral. "After arriving in Brazil, the pilot found out about the disappearance [of the plane] and said that he thought those points on the ocean were fire."
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/yb/130885524


Pilots flying a commercial jet from Paris to Rio de Janeiro for Brazil's largest airline, TAM, spotted what they thought was fire in the Atlantic Ocean along the same flight path of an Air France jet that vanished Monday, the airline said in a statement e-mailed to The Associated Press.
Brazilian Air Force spokesman Col. Jorge Amaral said authorities were investigating the pilots' sighting, according to the Agencia Brasil official news service.
"There is information that the pilot of a TAM aircraft saw several orange points on the ocean while flying over the region ... where the Air France plane disappeared," Amaral said. "After arriving in Brazil, the pilot found out about the disappearance [of the Air France plane] and said that he thought those points on the ocean were fire."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,524180,00.html

Google the terms: pilot saw fire on Atlantic
and you will see MANY more articles stating the same thing but they have been " cleaned up" significantly since the weather theory has been put forth.
And I did make an error- it was not Lufthansa, but a Brazilian airline, sorry.

[SeekingJana]

Originally Posted by JBean

I also read these reports abut the ocean fires early on. but I thought they turned out to be in the wrong area. i can't recall but I will see what I can find.

No, they were not in the wrong region. They were sighted by Brazilian airlines TAM flight from Paris to Rio during the same night. I don't post something unless I can back it up.

EDITED TO ADD: The Lufthansa connection I was thinking of is this-Two Lufthansa commercial flights of similar size aircraft went through the same storm, one half an hour before & one an hour later, safely and without incident.

I still think they ruled out terrorism way too quickly... or aren't discussing the possibility with the media.
Even Pam Am 400 had time to issue a Mayday signal manually.

[JBean]

Originally Posted by fortytwo

(bold above by me)

Have you got any links to these witness reports? They will be very interesting reading.

UNDATED (WVLT) Sky News in Britain is reporting that a pilot from Brazil-based TAM Airlines reported seeing what they thought was fire on the ocean near where Air France Flight 447 disappeared early Monday morning.

http://www.volunteertv.com/home/headlines/46679497.html

[jnTexas]

Originally Posted by SeekingJana

Some friends of mine who are international pilots for a major airline think this might be a terrorist act. They say there's no way in HELL they would fly into a 100 MPH storm in that region over the freaking Atlantic Ocean. NO WAY. And one pilot has over 25 years, and holds a very long individual private pilot speed record at Oshkosh. These aren't " cowboys" but the best of the best of our airline pilots. IF they would divert as far as necessary to avoid a header like the one which AF 447 supposedly flew into, then something is seriously wrong with prudent procedure somewhere.. and the pilot was very experienced, they say.

There are eyewitness accounts which also state that there WAS evidence of fire, which is contrary to the article last linked on Yahoo. The Lufshansa Airlines pilots on two separate flights that night saw " the ocean on fire" in that region. If that doesn't address the issue of eyewitness evidence of an intense fire, in the ocean, in an intense storm, I don't know what does.

Regardless, nothing will bring back the lost.. The young, the talented, the seniors going on vacation, the executives, the families. So many lives lost, so many families torn apart..

I've flown Air France, and love the airline. I am sure the crew was experienced. IF there is a system back-up flaw or malfunction in the Aerobus 330 ( or Airbus 330 in US English) in inclement weather, they need to be hauling a few in out of the working fleets from all major purchasers for electro-static and electromagnetic loading and testing. There was one near- failure due to strong electomagnetic fields at a military base. This concerns me.. If I know it, so do the nuts who would kill innocent people out of madness.


IF it is terrorism, I hope it is not covered up. A Continental pilot out of Houston reported some sort of projectile ( missle, rocket, or other surface to ar weapon) sighted on a flight this past week in Lincoln Co, TX.
The pilot is ex-military, so I tend to think he knows what he saw. I feel that the episode is being covered up.. that he is being ridiculed in the MSM.
We all need to pay attention.

I have thought that to. Why would someone fly a plane into 100 mph winds. that would be like flying a plane through a hurricane. I'm leaning towards the bomb possiblity. I surely hope whatever it was is released and not covered.

Actually it is Liberty County, Texas which is just down the street from me. the sheriff in Liberty county has taken it very serious and they have been searching since last friday for the object. the area is very rural alot of land is owned by the paper company so lots of trees.

I'm thinking (living in the area) this is most likely some kid out of school makking a rocket and shooting it off.

[JBean]

Originally Posted by SeekingJana

No, they were not in the wrong region. They were sighted by Brazilian airlines TAM flight from Paris to Rio during the same night. I don't post something unless I can back it up.

I know SJ, I was agreeing with you. I was saying that I thought that the fires were in the wrong area not you. I posted the link for you. This was reported very early on.

[adnoid]

Here is an article on the senior pilot:

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=105&sid=1688553

[jnTexas]

Originally Posted by adnoid

Here is an article on the senior pilot:

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=105&sid=1688553

20 years with the same company, 11,000 flying hours 1,700 of which were in this type plane sounds like he knew what he was doing.

Which further makes me believe the bomb possibilty.

[SeekingJana]

Originally Posted by jnTexas

I have thought that to. Why would someone fly a plane into 100 mph winds. that would be like flying a plane through a hurricane. I'm leaning towards the bomb possiblity. I surely hope whatever it was is released and not covered.

Actually it is Liberty County, Texas which is just down the street from me. the sheriff in Liberty county has taken it very serious and they have been searching since last friday for the object. the area is very rural alot of land is owned by the paper company so lots of trees.

I'm thinking (living in the area) this is most likely some kid out of school makking a rocket and shooting it off.

Sorry I got the county wrong. Was obviously going from memory, .
LOL, I read in some area newpaper forums that some people thought it was a kid's prank.
I don't know.. would the pilot, a Vietnam vet, know the difference between a kid's science project knowledge and a weaponry projectile?
I have not been in the flight deck of a large passenger plane during flight but have flown in all genres of restored antique military and commercial planes owned by friends... the flight deck views vary widely, of course, as these are IFR planes, not recreational VFRs.
I don't know, maybe the pilot had no other points of reference and over-estimated the size of the projectile aimed at his craft, but he was a pilot in Vietnam, it said... I don't think anyone should discount what he said he saw because he even gave his coordinates at the time of the sighting. Something an ex- military who is on the ball would think to do, IMO.
I hope it was a kid, and I hope he or she was scared by the report enough not to do it again.

[fortytwo]

Originally Posted by SeekingJana

They were the very first reports by the MSM. Will Google it for you and see what's still online. The things I am finding at this late date have extensive editing to add the specifics released by AF regarding the plane, crew, passengers, the storm.
However, at first, these were the reports coming in during the middle of the first night the plane went down:


"A Brazilian air force spokesman said the pilot of a TAM airliner saw what looked like fire on the water along the Air France jet's flight path.
That pilot "saw several orange points on the ocean while flying over the region," said the spokesman. Col. Jorge Amaral. "After arriving in Brazil, the pilot found out about the disappearance [of the plane] and said that he thought those points on the ocean were fire."
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/yb/130885524


Pilots flying a commercial jet from Paris to Rio de Janeiro for Brazil's largest airline, TAM, spotted what they thought was fire in the Atlantic Ocean along the same flight path of an Air France jet that vanished Monday, the airline said in a statement e-mailed to The Associated Press.
Brazilian Air Force spokesman Col. Jorge Amaral said authorities were investigating the pilots' sighting, according to the Agencia Brasil official news service.
"There is information that the pilot of a TAM aircraft saw several orange points on the ocean while flying over the region ... where the Air France plane disappeared," Amaral said. "After arriving in Brazil, the pilot found out about the disappearance [of the Air France plane] and said that he thought those points on the ocean were fire."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,524180,00.html

Google the terms: pilot saw fire on Atlantic
and you will see MANY more articles stating the same thing but they have been " cleaned up" significantly since the weather theory has been put forth.
And I did make an error- it was not Lufthansa, but a Brazilian airline, sorry.

Thanks.

[jnTexas]

Here's a link about the american couple on board. They were from The Woodlands, Texas which is about 40 miles north of Houston.
http://www.khou.com/topstories/stori....3eff765a.html

The two Americans on board a missing Air France plane were a geologist and his wife headed to Europe for work and vacation, a spokesman for his employer said Tuesday.

Michael Harris, who turned 60 last month, worked in Rio de Janeiro for Oklahoma City-based Devon Energy Corp., company spokesman Chip Minty said. Harris had planned to attend seminars in Barcelona, Spain. “After that, they had five days on R&R in Paris,” Minty said.

Anne Harris, 54, was a physical therapist who put herself through school while a single mother, her sister, Mary Miley, told the Lafayette, La., newspaper The Advertiser. She was originally from Lafayette, about 130 miles west of New Orleans.

[Trino]

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...issing-19.html

Here's a good explanation as to why the AF plane was likely not an explosion.

[Nocgirl]

I am heartbroken for all the people on this flight, especially the kids and baby. What an absolutely nightmarish ordeal knowing the jet is going to crash and you and your kids are going to die. Absolutely awful. I hate flying and am scheduled to fly to England in July and this stuff makes me very nervous.

[SeekingJana]

Originally Posted by Trino

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...issing-19.html

Here's a good explanation as to why the AF plane was likely not an explosion.

I used to read that forum daily.. Then I realized that commercial pilots, at least some of them on the AP forum, DO have biases and a sort of " superstition". There ARE things they don't talk about, there is a sense of brotherhood and unity among them.

I know this exists with commercial pilots who are at the height of their careers ( and pay scales) offline as well. It all depends on how much they trust you as a friend face to face. It takes quite a lot to get the dirty words such as '"terrorism" out into the open.

I read an article today which strongly suggestst that there could have been an explosion on the plane. "Huge explosion of white light" was the term used. It was in a UK newspaper, where they tend to tell more than most of Europe does in its news releases and publications.

I think it's entirely possible to have both inclement weather AND an incinderary device on the exact same flight.

Remember, France, which owns the aircraft in question and which has the most to lose from the surviving relatives, was the country which told the world that Princess Diana had " a broken arm" but was stable for HOURS after the fatal crash which killed her. She was never stable, she was resuscitated on the scene and was obviously in critical condition, barely showing signs of life for hours.
Just keep that in mind when you read the news reports. The French are the least- forthcoming of our allies. It is the nature of their news media.

[Trino]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8083474.stm

Craziness. BBC news is reporting that the debris found is NOT from AF 447. Now what or who should we believe?

[Kristins1223]

CNN is reporting the same
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americ...ash/index.html