AZ - Gabriel Johnson, 8 months, 26 Dec 2009 - last seen in Texas - #3

[momtective]

I really don't think Tammi & Jack are into brokering babies or providing a surrogate service. I think this woman wanted a baby. I think she ran and responded to ads online, relied on word of mouth through friends, and eventually met up with our lil' nut case EJ. I think she probably mentioned to EJ that they had adopted and were looking to adopt again and maybe she told Elizabeth if she knew anyone considering adoption to please pass her card along to them. EJ probably told her that she was considering it and there the friendship begins. Then EJ fills Tammi & Jack full of crap about Logan and they swallow every bit of it, they really believed her. I believe Tammi did help her leave AZ with Gabriel and helped her find the underground through a church or women's shelter. I don't know if Tammi sent EJ away to hide Gabriel or to place him for adoption with another family but my guess is that she sent her away as a ploy to get Logan to sign those dam adoption papers. When that backfired I think EJ went through the shelter underground and placed Gabriel for adoption. I do think that the friend in Tenn...Janet Morris helped facilitate the adoption.
I don't think Tammi knows where Gabriel is but I think she knows how he got to where he is and that is what is going to send her to jail. All jmo of course.

[BeanE]

Originally Posted by pghbrandi

BeanE, I hope I don't sound stupid when asking this... What is Occam's Razor?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

ETA: No question is ever stupid. Asking questions is a sign of intelligence and interest. :-)

[Bratlings]

Originally Posted by Baznme

While your theory may be logical, but.....IMO there are too many links to adoption type entities/persons for me to relax on thier motives here. He is not a new husband. They've been together for 10 years as stated on NG. They should have never disregarded Logan's role as his natural father and assumed they would even be able to adopt to begin with.

You're right they shouldn't have disregarded the natural father but her greed of having another child took over, its obvious that is all that mattered to her. She did not care who she hurt to get her way, and in the end if this child is dead she did not just hurt Logan, she had a direct hand in harming Gabriel too. I have a feeling she will never recognize that but its plain as day.

Nothing at all has indicated she was into baby selling. Assuming she did think she could just hide him out for a while and then have him back later, she is smart enough to know by now that will never work! Any normal person would have arranged for him to show up at a fire station by now in that situation. Selling him just doesnt serve her selfish need for a child, they are not poor. They dont need the money.

[pghbrandi]

Originally Posted by Chemeria

Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor[1]), entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem, is the principle that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" and the conclusion thereof, that the simplest explanation or strategy tends to be the best one. The principle is attributed to 14th-century English logician, theologian and Franciscan friar, William of Ockham. Occam's razor may be alternatively phrased as pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate ("plurality should not be posited without necessity").[2]

I had to look it up too.

Thank You!
I guess I should've looked it up myself as well!

BeanE thanks for the link!!!

[Nikki 01]

Originally Posted by STEADFAST

I'm really afraid that, although the Smiths may believe this is a story about adoptions, it's going to turn out to be a story about a "spiteful b#tch."

Yeah, I felt like that when I first heard this story, but you never know with the Smiths. That is what is unusual about this case. You have a sociopathic mother that is capable of harming her baby, but you also have this wackjob couple that I believe is capable of arranging for this baby to be hidden somewhere.

[Salem]

I've started a new thread here:

AZ - 8 mo. old Gabriel Johnson missing since 12-26-09, #4 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

AZ - 8 mo. old Gabriel Johnson missing since 12-26-09, #4 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

I'll have this one closed.

Salem

[A_Closer_Look]

Originally Posted by Bratlings

I think this idea is absolutely ridiculous! It seems the conspiracy theories are getting out of hand and the obvious is being missed. Elizabeth simply didnt want her child. Here is what I think is most likely... The Smiths wanted a child, she lost hers to her spouse and wanted an instant family with her new husband. She met a troubled girl, mentioned that she had adopted her step grandchild and suggested that if Elizabeth was so unhappy that she would provide a loving home. Elizabeth was angry, spiteful, probably overwhelmed especially in light of the fact that she had little family to help support her and thought it was a good way to relieve her responsibility and spite Logan at the same time. When that didnt work out and she discovered that Logan was going to take the baby away from her, she decided to show him! I think she killed the baby. The Smiths are not much concerned because they know they havent done anything in the way of hiding this baby and they figure if he is alive, better he be missing than Logan have him since they cant have him themselves. They very ignorantly probably havent even fathomed that he is dead, because they think they know Elizabeth.

I completely respect your opinion on this, however, I am having a hard time piecing the following things (in no certain order) together with that scenario.

Threatening Logan with "sign if you ever want to see your baby in a safe home"

Bio child posting she thinks TPS is involved due to what she did to them.

Step child posting that JS gained custody of H. through underhanded measures.

The Smiths denying having any idea of the Nashville connection and then a couple of hours later admitting to knowing the exact Nashville connection, which just so happens to be a friend of theirs that has a history of at least one adoption where the father was revoked of his custodial rights in what appears a to be a shady way.

The phone call from EJ to the Smiths. The one immediately following (according to TPS) the text to Logan claiming having killed Gabriel, telling TPS that she just made that claim to Logan but that the baby was indeed fine and safe. Why was she still in contact with them at this point, if she had really just fled and killed Gabe?

The suddenly remembering key pieces of information all of a sudden, and now going back in to have memories extracted? memories that are so repressed... from 2 weeks ago?

There's simply too many other pieces here. I just can't wrap my head around the Smiths being anything less than the shot callers on this one.

I still think Gabriel is alive and I think that TPS knows exactly where he is, or at least was, when he was handed off. I think she was in touch with EJ through the entire AZ > TX > FL trip. I think LE is perfectly aware of this, and their involvement.

Whether or not it goes deeper than just Gabriel, I don't know. For now I would be content with Gabe being brought home to Logan. After that, I hope everyone can find peace of mind regarding their involvement or lack thereof.

[time]

Originally Posted by Baznme

While your theory may be logical, but.....IMO there are too many links to adoption type entities/persons for me to relax on thier motives here. He is not a new husband. They've been together for 10 years as stated on NG. They should have never disregarded Logan's role as his natural father and assumed they would even be able to adopt to begin with.

I agree ... something is not right because. And, there is a strong indication they have some MO going here with adopting the 4 yr old behind the father's back. Tammi is just doing too much searching and posting for me to believe that was to find or grow one baby also - she may not be getting money for brokering, but with all her connections to adoption and surrogate folks, it seems to me she is in all this deeper than, again, one baby. Her own daughter is now calling her out and if they were so innocent in Gabriel's disappearance, then they would be so inconsistent, happy go lucky, and trying now to point the finger at both Elizabeth and Logan as unfit parents.

[babycat]

O/T

Welcome all new posters, and lurkers



And to the regs posting on this thread- wow. you guys are really on it I can barely keep up, and every time I go to post my thoughts, someone has posted it, so I just hit thanks! haha.

you guys are great

[LadyL]

Originally Posted by justice4every1

I think it is in response to what her daughter put on her facebook. The daughter believes her mom is involved and took it to her FB page.

which daughter; the oldest one `G` (insert question mark here)

(my question mark key won`t work properly)

I posted earlier that TF only had her two middle kids on her `top`friends on MS & I was thinking there was an issue there (beyond the obvious ones we all have seen)

so I`m thinking `G`

[truthsleuth]

Originally Posted by DairyGirl

I had hopes in the beginning that Gabriel was alive and that the Smiths had helped hide him but the more time that goes on the more I am losing that hope. I can't see any other reason for EJ to allow herself to sit in jail if the only thing that is standing between her and freedom is telling where the child is. Given the fact that even her own grandfather thinks she is capable of harming her child makes me even less hopeful. I just can't see her hating LM more than she loves her freedom. I just think the child should have been found by now. I am sure LE has cell phone records and pings and should have been able to retrace her actions on the last day she was seen with Gabriel. I am sure if she met a family to give them Gabriel there would be some cell phone records. I hope LE is really closer then we know to finding baby Gabriel.

I could not agree with you more. I do not believe EJ would sit in jail and give up her freedom if all she had to do to be freed was say where her child was. Her living child.

I hope against hope Gabriel is fine, but it's not looking good. I have never wanted to be so wrong about something.

[Elphaba]

With Tammi's claims of missions in Africa, I ponder if they have been practicing their craft in places where the law is either corrupt or near to non-existant, finally getting the nerve up to move their "business" endeavor to the states. I hope LE is accessing their passport records...

[iluvmua]

Originally Posted by truthsleuth

I could not agree with you more. I do not believe EJ would sit in jail and give up her freedom if all she had to do to be freed was say where her child was. Her living child.

I hope against hope Gabriel is fine, but it's not looking good. I have never wanted to be so wrong about something.

I agree with you, I also believe that Gabe is no longer with us.

[STEADFAST]

I've been watching DirecTV News Mix all day until the wee hours, refreshing the Gabriel thread here obsessively, searching Google News, and looking for links constantly, just to see the words "Gabriel Found Safe." I know all of you are doing basically the same thing. That's one of the reasons the Smiths' happy-go-lucky, look-at-us, we-feel-in-our-hearts-Gabriel-is-fine (shades of Casey Anthony!) attitude is making me so angry. I tell you, they'd better know he is fine to act this way. If it turns out they have no idea what his situation is at this time

[momtective]

Originally Posted by Salem

I've started a new thread here: AZ - 8 mo. old Gabriel Johnson missing since 12-26-09, #4 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

I'll have this one closed.

Salem

Thanks or starting the new thread Salem...I'm heading over there right now.

[Salem]

Originally Posted by Salem

I've started a new thread here: AZ - 8 mo. old Gabriel Johnson missing since 12-26-09, #4 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

I'll have this one closed.

Salem

Quoting myself to get your attention. There are no mods on right now but I have sent a message so this thread could close at any time.

Salem

[LadyL]

Originally Posted by A_Closer_Look

Sounds an awful lot like something a colon cleansing specialist would come up with...

I'm not rolling my eyes... I swear!

http://www.bodytalksystem.com/learn/...wledgeBase.cfm

I`m rolling mine enough for both of us!

geezuz (I can`t post the profanity I`m really thinking right now), how `bout they just say what they actually know & remember!

I really feel for LE right now - they must be SO frustrated with these lunatics!

here`s a tip TFPS: JUST TELL THE TRUTH & you won`t have to present hairbrained nonsense like that to detectives

LE has enough to do trying to find BABY GABRIEL without spending hours listening to your BS!!!!

WHERE IS GABRIEL
WHERE IS HE
BRING HIM HOME TO HIS DADDY NOW!

(ok, time for me to take a break)

[panthera]

Originally Posted by DairyGirl

The very sad fact is that is is probably easier to hide a dead baby then a live one. If some couple really did take the baby in, someone would know something. Calls would have to been made to make arrangements, neighbors and family would see a new child out of no where. Even the Smiths would save their own behinds if they made the arrangements and knew they were being caught. Unless the baby has been taken out of the country. I just don't know.

Gabriel's disappearance has only been on NG's show this week, so I'm wondering what the media coverage is where he might actually be, in Texas?

[LadyL]

Originally Posted by ~PrinceSSa~

Seing how involved TPS is with the internet with blogging, websites, MS and FB and always promptly replies to posts on her wall, it becomes clear that she spends a huge amount of time on the net and probably has a good sense of finding her way around (no doubt she's lurking here) My guess is that she met EJ online and arranged to meet at an airport. I highly doubt she went up to a stranger holding a baby and asking how she could help just because the lady (EJ) is crying.
As for EJ's getaway, I believe that the Smith's paid for much of it always keeping in mind that eventually that little boy will be hers to 'adopt' so why not help this young mother out? There seems to be no shortage of money considering the huge brand new house they built and live in. Noone on an average salary can afford a house like that.
What is JS occupation?

he`s in real estate (go figure)
there were some early reports that the house was leased but then we saw pics of the house in progress & that they did a lot of work on their own so maybe it`s the land that`s leased or maybe none of its true & they just have a load of $$$ or maybe it`s partially true & they`re mortgaged to the hilt

Off Topic: I once dated someone whose mother was in real estate but she had been a single mother for many years and was by no means `wealthy`

however, by all appearances, she was - she lived in a mansion and drove a brand-new beemer

well, the mansion was acquired on the cheap through her real estate connections and she divided it up into apt`s and rented out half the house

anyway, point being - appearances can deceive