VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #7

AndresEscobar said:

snipped...
Now, in regards to your disease analogy, I don't particularly agree with it. I think it is difficult to disagree with my statement that there is "something" wrong with people who commit violent crimes. I think that your criticism of the rehabilitation part of the prison system is related to rehabilitation being de-emphasized.

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PAXIMUS said:

In theory ok but in practice there is a lot more to it because who has the right to make that decision? Who holds the right to decide whether one should live or die?

Also how do you define murder? Killing innocent people not in self defense? Was Hiroshima murder? When we bomb cities and kill innocent women and children is that murder and who should be held be responsible for that.

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ziggy said:

I just think believing you can fix or cure the "something" wrong with the people you speak of is the same delusional thinking that goes into believing that there have been great cures in Western medicine.

We can't cure the common cold and a human being is far more complex. The study of Psychiatry is ever-changing and it is not an exact science. I don't have any faith that the profession can come up with an effective way to rehabilitate the repeat offenders and certainly not dangerous killers. There may be absolutely no way to "cure" or "rehab" a sociopath...then what? Turn them loose? Keep them locked in a mental facility for life? What's the differnce in a lifer at a mental facility and one in prison?

I just don't think "we" can effectively rehabilitate about 90% of the murderers. Drugs are a huge factor and do you realize how many stints in rehab it takes for someone to get clean? It does not typically happen after their first stab at it, or second.

I inclined to believe there are always going to be a certain number or percentage of people who are self destructive despite numerous attempts to save them; and there will be those who are bent on destroying others, regardless of the kindness of people or the brave interventions.

Now with regard to the physical discomfort of a convicted murderer, I don't think I fall within the group that wants them to suffer but I do think they owe their debt to the family of the victim and to society as a whole to forfeit their own life and accept their "repayment" if you will. That means, do the time. I never wanted to see Sam suffer, nor do I want him to have a particularly cushy existence either.

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PAXIMUS said:

Exactly and this is where I cross over from one political polarity to the other. I would be considered liberal on most issues but when it comes to gun control I dont support it at all, it is nonsense. The people turning their guns in are the people who follow the law anyway, those who dont follow the law will not be turning their guns in and you have a society run b y armed criminals and nobody armed to defend themselves from them.

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PAXIMUS said:

There is a very good chance they are using drugs because they are self medicating away a chemical imbalance in their brains, such as bipolar disorder or some other organic mental illness. I dont think very many people make the decision to become drug addicts on skid row, there is usually a reason for them being that way and even those with the best childhoods are not immune.

Since bipolar disorder does run in families this would certainly explain the behavior of these 3 relatives of yours. I do not think you can dismiss this as easily as you may first wish to.

They certainly do have a choice to go get some help and I would never make any excuses for them for not making that decision and instead deciding to self medicate but still, I doubt they are just using drugs for the **** of it in fact every druggie I have known was a self medicator of some sort and they all had mental health issues.

Regardless, addiction itself is a disease and I dont think it is right to call sick people "criminal assholes." These people are sick, they are not themselves and no amount of browbeating, insulting or name calling will help them. Its going to take a very strong person to help them, someone who is strong enough not to judge them but who will take the time to help them see what the drugs have done to them and how sick they have become because of the choices they have made. Addiction is a medical issue and since none of us are doctors its probably not easy for us to understand.

In any case this is yet another example of a fundamental disagreement, I think no less of you because you feel this way but I feel very strongly that you are wrong and that your love for them has led you astray. Detach yourself from the situation and stand back and see just how sick and in need of medical attention these kids are and you might change your mind about them.

Addiction can run in families and skip generations, their parents may have done a perfect job raising them but if they inherited a bad gene there is nothing anyone can do about that. Genetics do not discriminate and I think you would be wise to reconsider how you feel about them with this in mind before you simply write them off as ungrateful criminal assholes who had it all and threw it away. Its NEVER that simple my friend.

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ziggy said:

That's so fascinating! Last night I was having this exact conversation with one of my favorite fellow student dudes in my law classes even though he's a flaming liberal (he's a great guy like I'm certain you are!) and he has that same stance on gun control which shocks me a bit. I guess it's where our libertarian beliefs cross paths huh?

I did the Facebook "where are you on the political spectrum?" quiz and I was surprised to find I'm only slightly right of center but further towards the libertarian viewpoint. Crazy.

But hey, that variety makes life interesting and probably more fair and balanced, to coin a popular phrase

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DoctorZ said:

What about some of the people who commit lesser crimes than murder? Sometimes people become worse due to the punishment. Say a man steals out of desperation. If he sits in prison with nothing to do, he may come back out and do it again. If he learns a skill, maybe he won't have to get back to that point of desperation. He will have a huge mark against him, but his chances of getting a job as much higher as an ex-con with a skill than an ex-con with nothing. If he can never support himself legally then he is going to continue to be a criminal and possibly escalate the severity of his crimes.

When it comes to murder, maybe that person is already past the point of ever being safe in society. It's the people who escalate over time that may have had a chance had they been rehabilitated instead of harshly punished in the beginning.

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ziggy said:

Indeed there is some truth to what you've said, but the law does permit leniency for a man who steals out of desperation and in truth - he would not sit in jail for long because it's overcrowded...certainly not long enough to learn a skill. If that man was very serious and had no priors, you would get no objection from me.

I don't have a problem with training those who have the desire and will to become better people while they are incarcerated - unless they have committed a killing with malice or have killed in the commission of a dangerous crime or out of complete disregard for human life and a history of criminal behavior. Again, that's why I think reforming juvenile justice immediately is important because these "kids" are only going to transmutate into adult criminals and perhaps their age makes it more likely they have a shot at change.

One of my very best friends had to do time in Chowchilla (long story) - she was one of those who suffered erroniously under the conspiracy laws in CA. In her 2.5 years served she received a great education and obtained valuable computer skills and ended up being the Warden's assistant; so I see the need and the value, but then again...she was not REALLY a criminal in the sense I'm thinking about in the first place - so PRISON DIDN'T MAKE HER ONE.
How come?

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ziggy said:

Indeed there is some truth to what you've said, but the law does permit leniency for a man who steals out of desperation and in truth - he would not sit in jail for long because it's overcrowded...certainly not long enough to learn a skill. If that man was very serious and had no priors, you would get no objection from me.

I don't have a problem with training those who have the desire and will to become better people while they are incarcerated - unless they have committed a killing with malice or have killed in the commission of a dangerous crime or out of complete disregard for human life and a history of criminal behavior. Again, that's why I think reforming juvenile justice immediately is important because these "kids" are only going to transmutate into adult criminals and perhaps their age makes it more likely they have a shot at change.

One of my very best friends had to do time in Chowchilla (long story) - she was one of those who suffered erroniously under the conspiracy laws in CA. In her 2.5 years served she received a great education and obtained valuable computer skills and ended up being the Warden's assistant; so I see the need and the value, but then again...she was not REALLY a criminal in the sense I'm thinking about in the first place - so PRISON DIDN'T MAKE HER ONE.

How come?

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ziggy said:

I just think believing you can fix or cure the "something" wrong with the people you speak of is the same delusional thinking that goes into believing that there have been great cures in Western medicine.

We can't cure the common cold and a human being is far more complex. The study of Psychiatry is ever-changing and it is not an exact science. I don't have any faith that the profession can come up with an effective way to rehabilitate the repeat offenders and certainly not dangerous killers. There may be absolutely no way to "cure" or "rehab" a sociopath...then what? Turn them loose? Keep them locked in a mental facility for life? What's the differnce in a lifer at a mental facility and one in prison?

I just don't think "we" can effectively rehabilitate about 90% of the murderers. Drugs are a huge factor and do you realize how many stints in rehab it takes for someone to get clean? It does not typically happen after their first stab at it, or second.

I inclined to believe there are always going to be a certain number or percentage of people who are self destructive despite numerous attempts to save them; and there will be those who are bent on destroying others, regardless of the kindness of people or the brave interventions.

Now with regard to the physical discomfort of a convicted murderer, I don't think I fall within the group that wants them to suffer but I do think they owe their debt to the family of the victim and to society as a whole to forfeit their own life and accept their "repayment" if you will. That means, do the time. I never wanted to see Sam suffer, nor do I want him to have a particularly cushy existence either.

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dnrslucky1 said:

If everyone believed this way, there would be no chance of curing anything. IMO I believe the common cold could be cured, but there is to much money involved. The big drug company's would cry.

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PAXIMUS said:

To die — to sleep.
To sleep — perchance to dream: ay, there’s the rub!
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause.


The same could be said of cancer, aids and certainly tooth decay. This stuff is big money.

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ziggy said:

I can agree with that -the big money makers are not going to be taken out so easily. Then again, there's money in the vaccines, otherwise why would they offer us that for the flu but not for a cold? Do the OTC flu med people try and block the vaccines? But I digress...

If everyone is put here for a reason and we are in this lifetime to learn something, then would an execution, perhaps, be part of the plan and of the evolution of the soul? Isn't suffering expected with mankind? Isn't imperfection part of the reason we need these experiences? Could one's sould have chosen a path, knowing the outcome?

I will tell you that J. Dahmer got away with killing a lot of young men prior to being caught and imprisoned and after he was - he didn't take any more lives. The fact that he is no longer living means that there is no chance of some erroneous decision allowing him parole and no chance of him taking more lives.

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dnrslucky1 said:

If everyone believed this way, there would be no chance of curing anything. IMO I believe the common cold could be cured, but there is to much money involved. The big drug company's would cry.

Click to expand...

ziggy said:

I can agree with that -the big money makers are not going to be taken out so easily. Then again, there's money in the vaccines, otherwise why would they offer us that for the flu but not for a cold? Do the OTC flu med people try and block the vaccines? But I digress...

If everyone is put here for a reason and we are in this lifetime to learn something, then would an execution, perhaps, be part of the plan and of the evolution of the soul? Isn't suffering expected with mankind? Isn't imperfection part of the reason we need these experiences? Could one's sould have chosen a path, knowing the outcome?

I will tell you that J. Dahmer got away with killing a lot of young men prior to being caught and imprisoned and after he was - he didn't take any more lives. The fact that he is no longer living means that there is no chance of some erroneous decision allowing him parole and no chance of him taking more lives.

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PAXIMUS said:

So Dahmer's killer isnt a murderer?

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CharlieChan said:

Lots of states have the DP. Very few will actually execute you, I live in Missouri and they will execute you--Texas will execute you & Florida will execute you. States that won't actually do the dirty deed should abandon the DP and save their taxpayers some bucks.

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blouAngel said:

All conversations, the ones in this forum included require that words have meanings. Definitions have some flexibility, since there is no actual authority that can give the final word. But, without some degree of fixity, which we all implicitly agree to, communication would be impossible.

The word "murder" has currently accepted meanings. It is not generally accepted that an executioner who takes the life or a convicted murderer who has been sentenced to die for the crimes for which he has been convicted would legitimately be referred to as a murderer.

I would argue that your rhetorical approach here is flawed. If you wish to attempt to broaden the definition of the word "murderer," then it is incumbent upon you to first offer a case for that rather than to decree that your use is correct until challenged.

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PAXIMUS said:

So Dahmer's killer isnt a murderer?

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