IL IL - Debbie Fijan, 10, DuPage County, 11 Feb 1966 - #2

milopedes said:

Good Lord, can someone please explain to me how this guy walked?

I had read little, and still thought Loren Schofield was the most likely suspect, but these added details go a long way toward convincing me.

I'm no cop, and claim no experience in interrogation, but why beat around the bush? Once he made incriminating, or at the very least unusual statements, why not directly ask him if he did it?

I don't see how they failed to get an indictment. Unless, of course, these factors played into it somewhat:

The witness saw a girl, not specifically mentioning Debbie, talking to a man in a white car.

It may not have been blood on the clothes turned in by LS's wife.

The pen knife turned into was ruled out as the weapon.

OK, maybe these could raise reasonable doubt in court. . . but at the very least, I would think it worthy of an attempt at convicting this .

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millopedes, the information contained in the thread are all from old media articles. We have not seen any court docs which may be available via the FOIA.

Let me answer what we know about comments above.

The witness stated (according to media) he saw a girl resembling Debbie ( and IIRC wearing a coat similiar to Debbies) talking to a man in a white car. Media did not indicate he identified the girl as Debbie. Somewhere buried in the threads, LE found boot prints which ended where the witness saw Debbie which led LE to believe this was the point where she entered the car. These boot prints ended at appx the same spot the witness saw the young girl resembling Debbie talking to a man in a white car. We know nothing about the description of the car other than it was white and LS owned a white car. No info on what kind of car LS owned back then either......

We don't know if the stains on the clothing was blood or not.

IIRC the coroner or DCS (dup cty shrf) believed the pen knife was too small? to have been the murder weapon.

LS's father was at the time held an elected county position as the Wayne Township HWY commissioner. (an added note, LS's father drowned appx 1-1.5 years after Debbies murder)

hth

SunnieRN said:

Hmmm, very interesting that ALL evidence of a serial killer would be destroyed! Doesn't make any sense at all. By any chance, does Lisa(I hope I am remembering the correct name), have any remembrance of ROM being at AV's house, while they babysat during pool parties?

Also, who was his, AV's, girlfriend and was she the babies Mother? Did she see Debbie acting like the baby was hers, playing Mommy and got mad? Is it possible that Debbie saw AV and his girlfriend in an inappropriate situation and they were afraid she would tell? To me, his finding the body had to be an incredible coincidence if he/they were not involved. Very scary to think about! Where is AV now and did he marry his girlfriend? Too many ??? not enough answers about him INHO.



Hear hear! Not saying it wasn't LS, ROM, but, I think there are 3 good suspects, not two!



So, I have read reports that state Debbies Mom was at the school at 5:10 and at 5:30. I wonder which of those is correct? We were always walkers. On a rare occasion our Mom would pick us up, she wouldn't have left at 5:10 without talking to us, or a teacher, to see if the game was still going on. Would love to know the time she went to the school, as that would clear up the time line and also explain why she may have/may not have seen LS car on the road.



This is going to sound bizarre, but could LS or one of his brothers had a child that was abandoned this way, on the family property? His oldest brother had been married for several years by this time.

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SunnieRn

We have not found a decent photo of Macek. IIRC there was only one not so great picture of him in an old newspaper article. He lived near Elmwood Park, (near nw burb of Chgo- media incorrectly lists the town as Elmwhood) The picture was also ROM as an older man, not the teenager Lisa would have remembered him. If we could, (I don't think we did) identify the HS he attended I may be able to find a library with his HS year book and see if we can find a pic of ROM as a teen. We found nothing to indicate ROM new AV.......... would be interesting if we could.

Being a local I can say the area did not change much between 66 and 72 (when Sally Kandel was murdered). That area was still considered the boonies back then and a good 15 minutes west of what was then considered the farthest west of growth out to the burbs. According to Lisa the only difference between 66 and the early 70's was there were some homes built on Fair Oaks - then the walk between the school and Debbies home only had a few homes, but was mostly wooded.

We don't know much about AV. No criminal history was found via searches. He is on the west coast and has a legit interesting business in child care. We don't know much about him or his gf. We know he was home from college for the weekend. We don't know when he arrived home. Considering college courses are scheduled by the student he may or may not have had friday classes. And we know what Lisa shared with us from memory as well as what Roger recalled when seeing this in the daily papers when the murder occured.

-We do know LE tracked the muddy boot prints from the swing LS last saw Debbie leading to and possible to the location at St. Charles and Fair Oaks Roads. Don't know if the prints were muddy that far, but they were tracked that far.

Have not sleuthed or found much about LS's brothers other than they were both married and no longer in the home. Debbie was found within viewing distance of the family farm where LS grew up so he knew the area like the back of his hand. Abbey5 uncovered some interesting info...... LS was not listed as an attendent of one of his older brothers weddings. Everyone else was listed but LS. LS would have been about 16 when his brother was married.


I do not recall the exact time Debbies mom first went to the school to pick up Debbie while the basketball game was still in progress. I don't know that we determined the time of the first pick up other than after school. The 5:10 and 5:30 may have been estimates for a time line based on various media articles we found.

hth

Lisa, oh Lisa, if you are still reading would you possible be able to answer some basic questions? If you can......

-What time did Debbies mom first come to pick her up that afternoon?

-What time did the basketball games usually end and what time did the game end the afternoon Debbie was murdered?

-I imagine the ground was pretty muddy with the above freezing temperatures that week.

-What do you recall about spring flooding in the immediate area? Were the roads passable after 4-5 days with daytime highs above freezing?

-Do you have an idea of when AV arrived home from school for the weekend?

This may help with the timeline and 'theories'.

tia

Cubby

milopedes said:

I wonder if LS, or anyone related to him, ever comes to this site?

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Me too.

I've often wondered why no one who knew ROM has joined us. There is very very little information about ROM online and no where have we found anyone who knew ROM posting or commenting on ROM anywhere.........

Something that just stood out to me. It was reported feathers were found in LS's car (Debbies show and tell duck? she borrowed from a neighbor). We also found out via media reports (shadowangel found this) LS's father provided the county jail with eggs from his farm. That could explain the feathers in LS's car.

jmo

Cubby said:

Me too.

I've often wondered why no one who knew ROM has joined us. There is very very little information about ROM online and no where have we found anyone who knew ROM posting or commenting on ROM anywhere.........

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It would be great to hear from anyone that knew ROM or LS.

Cubby said:

Something that just stood out to me. It was reported feathers were found in LS's car (Debbies show and tell duck? she borrowed from a neighbor). We also found out via media reports (shadowangel found this) LS's father provided the county jail with eggs from his farm. That could explain the feathers in LS's car.

jmo

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I thought the feathers in his car were from the mounted duck Debbie brought for show and tell. I know there is a difference between duck and chicken feathers but I'm sure LS said they also had ducks on the farm.

It was never stated where the feathers in LS's trunk were from.
IIRC shadowangel found some discrepancy on the description of the mounted duck in media articles and we were unsure of the description of the mounted duck.

Cubby said:

It was never stated where the feathers in LS's trunk were from.
IIRC shadowangel found some discrepancy on the description of the mounted duck in media articles and we were unsure of the description of the mounted duck.

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I should have made it clear that it is my own opinion where the feathers in the trunk came from.

There were several different descriptions of the duck in the media reports...statue of a duck and stuffed duck are two that come to mind. I remember when I first read this I thought maybe she had brought a stuffed animal (duck) or a little statue of a duck to school with her. But then I paid for a couple of articles from the Chicago Tribune and one of the articles had a picture of the side of the road where Debbie's body was found. In this picture it showed school books and the duck. It was real duck that someone had obviously shot and had taken to a taxidermist to have mounted or stuffed.

Abbey5 said:

I should have made it clear that it is my own opinion where the feathers in the trunk came from.

There were several different descriptions of the duck in the media reports...statue of a duck and stuffed duck are two that come to mind. I remember when I first read this I thought maybe she had brought a stuffed animal (duck) or a little statue of a duck to school with her. But then I paid for a couple of articles from the Chicago Tribune and one of the articles had a picture of the side of the road where Debbie's body was found. In this picture it showed school books and the duck. It was real duck that someone had obviously shot and had taken to a taxidermist to have mounted or stuffed.

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Thank you for clarifying the show and tell duck. Chicken feathers from the Schofield farm and Duck feathers are clearly different. What kind of feathers were in Schofields trunk?

If the feathers found in the trunk were in fact from the show and tell duck why wasn't LE able to tie that together? There would be no good reason to explain why the feathers from the show and tell duck would be found in LS's trunk, if in fact the trunk feathers were from the duck.

I doubt LS killed Debbie at the spot she was found. LE stated it looked like Debbie had dragged herself to that spot.

There HAD to be more evidence in LS's car. If he put her in the trunk before he dumped her there should have been blood in trunk, bodily fluids in the trunk. Just what the heck did LE do when they were searching the trunk for evidence? I hope to God that is not one of the mistakes LE made back then that Mark Edwalds was refering to. While he didn't tell me what those mistakes were, and rightfully so, I was hoping they were legal mistakes and not evidence mistakes. Now, I am not so sure.

:banghead: :banghead:

LS had once lived on a 90 acre farm- his parents still lived there. He got rid of the *advertiser censored*. Debbie was found close to the road and not on Schofield propert. Now tell me, if the perp was someone other than LS, why wouldn't the perp have chosen to dump Debbie somewhere on the 90 acres far from the house on the property further away from the road? I don't believe he would have. I believe a perp other than LS would have chosen somewhere on those 90 acres versus close to the road.

ROM did not leave Sally close to the road. ROM left Sally in the middle of a corn field. IMO if ROM had killed Debbie he would not have left her on the road when 1000'-2000' away was a 90 acre property and a much better choice of place to hide a body.

I really think the fact that Debbie was NOT found on the Schofield property when it was clearly a better choice to dump a body rather than close to the road is telling and further proof LS is likely Debbies killer.


JMO

Lisa, where are you?

Now I am wondering based on the above theory I posted what the NE and SE corners of Lies road looked like in 1966. Where they wooded or open farm land? Was the area of Schofields property near the corners of Fair Oaks and Lies wooded or open property?

Cubby said:

LS had once lived on a 90 acre farm- his parents still lived there. He got rid of the *advertiser censored*. Debbie was found close to the road and not on Schofield propert. Now tell me, if the perp was someone other than LS, why wouldn't the perp have chosen to dump Debbie somewhere on the 90 acres far from the house on the property further away from the road? I don't believe he would have. I believe a perp other than LS would have chosen somewhere on those 90 acres versus close to the road.

ROM did not leave Sally close to the road. ROM left Sally in the middle of a corn field. IMO if ROM had killed Debbie he would not have left her on the road when 1000'-2000' away was a 90 acre property and a much better choice of place to hide a body.

I really think the fact that Debbie was NOT found on the Schofield property when it was clearly a better choice to dump a body rather than close to the road is telling and further proof LS is likely Debbies killer.


JMO

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The location of Debbie's body to the Schofield farm was one of the first things that made me think that he didn't do it. I thought, wow, this guy couldn't be this stupid. He had lived in this area his whole life and he had to have known tons of other places to dump a body....why the heck would he put it right next to his parents farm? But after reading many articles I changed my mind. At this point I think that LS followed his normal routine to some degree to cover up what he had done. He really didn't know anything else...if this makes sense. To me, it seems that LS grew up in a strict household, lived with his parents for the first six years of his marriage and even after he stopped teaching he helped his father with his job. It seems to me he did not have control of his life he just followed a plan that others had made for him. He had only lived in his own home for four months and had a six month old baby when Debbie was murdered. I think LS just lost it one day (I do have more to say on this than he just lost it). I don't know if he picked up Debbie to give her a ride home and then something happened and he stangled her enough to knock her out or if he had hurt her somewhere in the school or schoolyard. I do think he killed her somewhere on the family farm and changed clothes there and dropped Debbie along the roadside on his way home. The statements he made to LE: I have a sexual problem, I could have done it, I'm capable of doing it, I don't deny I could have done it, I shouldn't be on the streets, I don't want to go home, I have a problem with Debbie, etc... These are some pretty damning statements. Later in the week he took back that he could have done it but at this point I think all fingers were pointed at him. And the way that no one in the area wanted to talk about this case to the media makes me wonder if there something about LS that no one wanted to say because of his parents. Was there something known about LS but was not discussed in public but only behind closed doors? And I really would like to know why LS did not become a priest.


JMO

Abbey5 said:

The location of Debbie's body to the Schofield farm was one of the first things that made me think that he didn't do it. I thought, wow, this guy couldn't be this stupid. He had lived in this area his whole life and he had to have known tons of other places to dump a body....why the heck would he put it right next to his parents farm? But after reading many articles I changed my mind. At this point I think that LS followed his normal routine to some degree to cover up what he had done. He really didn't know anything else...if this makes sense. To me, it seems that LS grew up in a strict household, lived with his parents for the first six years of his marriage and even after he stopped teaching he helped his father with his job. It seems to me he did not have control of his life he just followed a plan that others had made for him. He had only lived in his own home for four months and had a six month old baby when Debbie was murdered. I think LS just lost it one day (I do have more to say on this than he just lost it). I don't know if he picked up Debbie to give her a ride home and then something happened and he stangled her enough to knock her out or if he had hurt her somewhere in the school or schoolyard. I do think he killed her somewhere on the family farm and changed clothes there and dropped Debbie along the roadside on his way home. The statements he made to LE: I have a sexual problem, I could have done it, I'm capable of doing it, I don't deny I could have done it, I shouldn't be on the streets, I don't want to go home, I have a problem with Debbie, etc... These are some pretty damning statements. Later in the week he took back that he could have done it but at this point I think all fingers were pointed at him. And the way that no one in the area wanted to talk about this case to the media makes me wonder if there something about LS that no one wanted to say because of his parents. Was there something known about LS but was not discussed in public but only behind closed doors? And I really would like to know why LS did not become a priest.


JMO

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I agree. Though we know she was seen at the swing. We know her muddy boot prints led from the swing to the place where the witness saw a girl who resembled Debbie wearing a coat similiar to Debbies was talking to a man in a white car near the intersection of Fair Oaks and St. Charles rd. So LS could not have hurt Debbie in the school or school yard as she made it to the intersection of St. Charles and Fair Oaks.

Lisa said she saw Debbie talking to LS when she left the school that day, and they were one of the last people to leave. Lisa did not know of anyone still at the school other than LS, and Debbie, at least that we know of.. We know from media reports Debbie, LS, the female teacher (husband went to pick her up) and the janitor were at least the last 4 at school that day. IIRC media reports cleared the janitor, the female teacher left with her husband, that leaves LS and Debbie.......

I think whatever happened that day LS snapped. He knew the proximity of his home on Old Gary Rd left him little time to commute from leaving the school and arriving home. He knew Debbies mom had less than a 5 min drive to the school and if she did not see Debbie her mom would be driving in the area soon looking for Debbie. He HAD to get rid of the body quickly, and impulsivly KNEW he had to get her OFF his dads property. The quickest place was OFF the road he had LIVED on and Lies was the closest place.... so I believe he dumped her there. Went east on Lies away from the scene of the crime home in enough time it might not have caused suspicion. I do know believe for a second MAS (Ls's wife) would be honest about the time he arrived home.

IIRC, LS did not get the call Debbie was missing until 6:30 pm at his home on Old Gary Rd. That leaves appx 1 hour to 1 hour and 15 min for all of this to have taken place.

I think need to find out more about what the Sheriff's office or detective was alluding to when he asked LS about not recalling events because of his "past life".

Since we discovered information that LS was not included in the wedding notice published in the paper for his older brothers wedding, about the time he was 16, perhaps we can sleuth some of LS's HS peers. (His HS is listed here somewhere). Perhaps if we can locate a HS peer they might be willing to share with us what they remember. (Abbey05 had found this info at Ancestry.com IIRC. We did not post it because we did not want to publish/post the names of LS's brothers because they were not living at the home at the time and are innocent if LS is repsonsible for Debbies murder. If we discover they are deceased we can use their names and post there info. If they are living we can not to protect their privacy)

This is pure speculation, but I wonder if LS had some kind of mental breakdown in HS. We were unable to find anything regarding possible sexual abuse in the Catholic schools LS had ties too..... doesn't mean the lack of locating information rules the possibility out, just means we have not uncovered info to support that theory.

JMO

I admire all of you for the fantastic sleuthing job you have done on this case. Truly amazing!!

When I read the first thread, I was convinced that LS was responsible. His cagey manner, the fact that he "Has a past", he and his wife cooperated in a lie to prevent anyone from learning about his whereabouts for the time period, the fact that he had access to Debbie, white car, scratches on his hands, obvious frustration with Debbie in relation to his own son, the fact that he turned in not one, but two small knives, don't even want to get started on *advertiser censored* in his desk at school, or his wife helping destroy it, all came together to make him look VERY guilty!!

Then I started thinking of motive. What motive would he have to kill Debbie? He seems very docile and harmless to hear him described. He certainly was not the macho man that led his family or most likely even his students. That leaves, anger, did she refuse advances made by him? Lust? Same scenario. Jealousy, yep, same motive.

I really wonder how far things had gone between them. The 50's and 60's was unfortunately a time when children could be easily made to stay quiet about abuse and abusers, by either threats or intimidation. (You know you like this and that makes you evil, bad, pick your word here). Is it possible that LS moved away from Mommy and Daddy due to an illicit relationship between he and Debbie? God, I hope not! When I was 11 my best friend was being abused by the neighbor. No one knew until she got pregnant at 12.

Also, what of Mrs. LS and her actions? Where was she that evening, what did she know, see, hear? She was frightened enough to lie, tamper with evidence and hide who knows what? Being that they were both raised in the church, almost becoming nun and priest, if they were involved, the guilt must have eaten them alive!

I can't get over the intimacy in the way she was killed. How personal it was enacted. Also, I hardly think that something as bizarre as bite marks would have gone unreported if they were found. That seemed beyond crazy in that era.

Then thread two. I started to think more about Bellarimo? Is that the correct name? It has been stated several times that he had no discernable motive for lying about the murder. He wasn't in custody or on trial and needed to turn states evidence for a break to get a lesser sentence. He also knew AV and even if they were not bosom buddies, he knew him.

What would he have had to gain by lying? Notoriety? Ummm, probably not much. $$$, as far as I know, there was no reward at that time. What if he was telling the truth? I remember reading that there was some thought to there being two people involved. Also, no murder weapon was ever found. A sharpened spoon could probably make a similar wound to a pen knife, without any real preciseness, which if I summarised the information we have correctly, would lend its self to that theory, possibly.

AV, the idea of him, gives me the hee bee jee bees. Have no idea on motive, but she knew him, he had opportunity, she most likely trusted him, white car (again). I just really feel he can not be thrown out as a suspect. I would like to think I am wrong and that he wasn't involved, but the fact that he joined a search for Debbie and found her, in that area, first place he looked...ummm sure. Hope he buys a heck of a lot of lottery tickets every day.

Other theory. Depending upon what time of day he got home, if it was Friday, earlier in the day, could he have seen someone/something happen to Debbie, but didn't do anything to stop it, but knew where to look?

Anyway, just things I've been muddling through with my tired brain!

Oh, and I searched for a LONG time and couldn't find any ROM info either. Too bizarre!

Cubby said:

I think need to find out more about what the Sheriff's office or detective was alluding to when he asked LS about not recalling events because of his "past life".

Since we discovered information that LS was not included in the wedding notice published in the paper for his older brothers wedding, about the time he was 16, perhaps we can sleuth some of LS's HS peers. (His HS is listed here somewhere). Perhaps if we can locate a HS peer they might be willing to share with us what they remember. (Abbey05 had found this info at Ancestry.com IIRC. We did not post it because we did not want to publish/post the names of LS's brothers because they were not living at the home at the time and are innocent if LS is repsonsible for Debbies murder. If we discover they are deceased we can use their names and post there info. If they are living we can not to protect their privacy)

This is pure speculation, but I wonder if LS had some kind of mental breakdown in HS. We were unable to find anything regarding possible sexual abuse in the Catholic schools LS had ties too..... doesn't mean the lack of locating information rules the possibility out, just means we have not uncovered info to support that theory.

JMO

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You know Cubby, being a homosexual was considered a mental illness at that time. Any theory on whether he was caught experimenting to find his sexual orientation?

Again I have no clue about any of this, but being born about a year after Debbie in 1957, times were very different religiously and politically. Especially in small towns.

Oy! I'm going to hell for sure!:twocents:

SunnieRN said:

You know Cubby, being a homosexual was considered a mental illness at that time. Any theory on whether he was caught experimenting to find his sexual orientation?

Again I have no clue about any of this, but being born about a year after Debbie in 1957, times were very different religiously and politically. Especially in small towns.

Oy! I'm going to hell for sure!:twocents:

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Nothing we have uncovered leads to any indication LS was experimenting with homosexuality or bisexuality. IMO the only 'tie' to that possibility is very loosely with LS being Catholic and our knowledge of rampant sexual abuse by priests and nuns in the Catholic church. Is it possible LS was abused by a priest or nun and that could be what was meant by his 'past life', certainly. Since LE asked him about it, I think there is a good chance that may be in the LE files about this case but that is just a guess.

JMO

Based on what we've found about AV off forum, he has worked with children for a long time. I have no reason to believe he would have anything to do with this..... just a gut. While we don't know, LE has likely ruled him and bellemaro (SP?) out.... I'm going to guess AV and his GF were at home at his parents house when they got the call Debbie was missing... so they all had alibi's. My guess is he and his GF went North to search because everyone else went South towards the school and being an 18 or 19 yr old kid he wanted to cover more ground rather than tag along to assist the other adults. At that age he would have been expanding his indepence greatly being his 1st or 2nd yr in college. (Just based on the average college kid).

IMO, and this is speculation Debbie 'annoyed' LS because he was fond of her and found himself responding to her physically. He probably daydreamed or fantasized about her for sometime until he crossed a line that day. IMO, just because there were no signs that Debbie was sexually molested does not mean LS did not expose himself to her ...... Perhaps he thought she would respond favorably to him if he did and when her response was not as he expected he knew there was no turning back time. He had crossed the ultimate line and had to kill her in order to keep her from telling anyone. Had she told, his whole world, life, career, marriage would come crumbling down. This, imo, is a very likely possibility because we know he couldn't excersize enough self discipline to refrain from bringing *advertiser censored* to school so his boundaries were clearly not all there.

JMO

Additional thoughts. IF LS had exposed himself to Debbie thinking she would respond favorably, I can see him being disgusted with himself, hating himself for what he did.... IMO, he was TRYING to tell LE when he said those things about himself while being interogated. It was his way of trying to tell the truth and hoping LE would figure it out. And even though he didn't come out and actually TELL the truth about what happened, he convinced himself what he did say was truthful even though deep inside he knows he is fooling himself. I also think he would lean on his faith, that all men fall short, and he'll convince himself based on his beliefs he's forgiven.......

Catholics are odd with the 'good works' thing. IMO, at least from my perspective, they sometimes and possibly often confuse good works with confessing their sins. I wonder if LS ever confessed to a priest what he had done. IMO, if he did he would feel completely absolved of any responsiblity for Debbies murder and of course a priest could not go to LE with this information because of their vows and the rules/laws of the church.



JMO