Identified! KY - Gray, WhtFem 192UFKY, 24-35, In Refrigerator, Apr'85 - Epsy Regina Black-Pilgrim

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I just read the links Carl and am amazed at the number of MP on the KY case that look so much alike. All good possibilities.

So are you saying that the process has begun for Melody's DNA? I am just grateful your case went through TX DPS and not a local agency. I think they are efficient, dedicated and professional. All I am getting in the way of a 'possible' so far is "This is an on-going investigation and we cannot comment"....

I wish I could explain by image how I come to some of my conclusions but that would mean posting several photos of the UP. I do this in my submitted file but cannot do it in a public forum.
I am also glad that this UP is getting so much attention as a match for others. This can only heighten the possibility she is identified.
This UP #82 is on my schedule to make a follow up call next week.
 
Finally, I can say 100% for perfect match between UP #82 & Charlie Project: Melody Ann Jones. It's 2 pieces of jewelry (eagle & heart pendants) she always wearing. She was alive for 2 yrs after her husband was discovery as murdered in May 1983. It has to be same killer that get rid of Paul & took her with him in hide for 2 yrs until he killed her before March 1, 1985. The problem is we don't know whether she was involved with Paul's death by leaving him for someone (now likely as 2-time killer).

What does you think of that situation?
 
Where's the evidence that Melody always wore jewelry like this? All I can find is that all her personal possessions were left behind when she disappeared, which is inconclusive (presumably even if abducted she had some clothes and shoes)...

Melody is slightly outside the demographics (heavier, although weight loss is easily possible) and a little younger (22 vs 25 minimum). The looks aren't too far off either, though the artist's reconstruction doesn't seem to resemble Melody, individual points are quite close.

Time and distance are difficult to reconcile with what we think we know and there's no alternative to suggest that the UID's background could match Melody's. None of this says this isn't a match - circumstances that make sense would most likely have led to an identification already - but I really can't share your certainty.
 
The UP has dentals. She had DNA listed in the NMPDD. However, I received some information on this case this morning and can only say that the coroner's information has been sent to the investigating supervisor of the MP agency Investigations/Supervisor - Pottawatomie County Sheriff's Office. This would be the 'local' agency that originated the MP report. I just don't have the words to describe how upsetting this is. IF the MP agency had done their job in the first place and actually looked for Melody then this could have been a closed case. NOW they take what ever info anyone sends them and what will they do with that? Will they file 13 it again? (that number means the bottom of the stack of neglected or unwanted work and if they don't feel like lifting the stack of dusty paperwork, they toss it!) I so hope this is not the case. I sent an email to the "NEW" case investigator at NamUS asking why and under what circumstances the scientific identification of a UP is left to LE. OY! I can see this could be a very long wait.
 
KLCD620 said:
Finally, I can say 100% for perfect match between UP #82 & Charlie Project: Melody Ann Jones. It's 2 pieces of jewelry (eagle & heart pendants) she always wearing. She was alive for 2 yrs after her husband was discovery as murdered in May 1983. It has to be same killer that get rid of Paul & took her with him in hide for 2 yrs until he killed her before March 1, 1985. The problem is we don't know whether she was involved with Paul's death by leaving him for someone (now likely as 2-time killer).

What does you think of that situation?
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KLCD620,
I really don't know how to interpret what you have written and I want to understand. Were you just being facetious or do you know something about the necklaces? After making a phone call it is clear to me that I am within my (personal) boundaries to discuss accessories and even clothing of a victim as long as I am not making a judgement about lifestyle or being judgemental. Example: I can't say "His/her clothing was too revealing for public so that must mean...". I can comment on the clothing as it is relevant to weather or clothing relevant or usual for a particular event. I hope that makes sense.

With that in mind I called a photo specialist by occupation who works under the same rules as I and invited him to take a look at the work I had done on all available images of the UP and MP. The chain in Melody's photo taken with her husband shows the link is interrupted or separated by a hanging object that appears somewhat circular. Again, it takes some photo work to pick up on this but some of you have great photo skills and can see for yourself. This "object" is similar to and could very well be the necklace that appears on the UP's postmortem photo (minus the large ornamental winged one).

If you were being facetious, I understand. We all can get a bit testy and even scoff at the notion someone actually posted a "possible" that is totally out of the realm of possibility.
Regardless of individual opinion, identification always comes down to science and we who search and donate our time to this cause are a team. We may not know each other outside this screen or never meet those we have phone conferences with but each of us brings to the table something unique to these searches. For instance, I would refer all my dental questions to CarlK as he is our knowledgeable "resident" in spotting and explaining teeth. Others here have excellent skills in other areas. So just a note for scoffers: I do not apologize for posting or even submitting what I believe to be a reasonable case because the ultimate goal is resolution of these cases. I am always open to disagreement and alternatives - always!
 
Mensch said:
KLCD620,
I really don't know how to interpret what you have written and I want to understand. Were you just being facetious or do you know something about the necklaces? After making a phone call it is clear to me that I am within my (personal) boundaries to discuss accessories and even clothing of a victim as long as I am not making a judgement about lifestyle or being judgemental. Example: I can't say "His/her clothing was too revealing for public so that must mean...". I can comment on the clothing as it is relevant to weather or clothing relevant or usual for a particular event. I hope that makes sense.

With that in mind I called a photo specialist by occupation who works under the same rules as I and invited him to take a look at the work I had done on all available images of the UP and MP. The chain in Melody's photo taken with her husband shows the link is interrupted or separated by a hanging object that appears somewhat circular. Again, it takes some photo work to pick up on this but some of you have great photo skills and can see for yourself. This "object" is similar to and could very well be the necklace that appears on the UP's postmortem photo (minus the large ornamental winged one).

If you were being facetious, I understand. We all can get a bit testy and even scoff at the notion someone actually posted a "possible" that is totally out of the realm of possibility.
Regardless of individual opinion, identification always comes down to science and we who search and donate our time to this cause are a team. We may not know each other outside this screen or never meet those we have phone conferences with but each of us brings to the table something unique to these searches. For instance, I would refer all my dental questions to CarlK as he is our knowledgeable "resident" in spotting and explaining teeth. Others here have excellent skills in other areas. So just a note for scoffers: I do not apologize for posting or even submitting what I believe to be a reasonable case because the ultimate goal is resolution of these cases. I am always open to disagreement and alternatives - always!
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Mensch- You're spot on about being a team and some having terrific skills in specific areas (CarlK is a great example). You're also correct about each of us not really knowing eachother outside of this forum; with that in mind I can be 99.999999999% certain that KCLD620 was not scoffing at, nor trying to portray any level of disrespect to you or this case. He/She has responded on numerous occasions to items I have posted here quite respectfully, even when completely shooting down the occasional "off the wall" scenerios I come up with.

Keeping in mind the fact that we don't know eachother; I assume (maybe incorrectly...again I don't really know) that there may be a language barrier involved here and nothing more.

Going back to this case....I think Melody is a completely realistic match to this case and I think the photo work you've uncovered is terrific; quite honestly you unintentionally taught me something about looking for the "little details" (I cant articulate it well "off the cuff"...but thank you :)
 
masnitram said:
Mensch- You're spot on about being a team and some having terrific skills in specific areas (CarlK is a great example). You're also correct about each of us not really knowing eachother outside of this forum; with that in mind I can be 99.999999999% certain that KCLD620 was not scoffing at, nor trying to portray any level of disrespect to you or this case. He/She has responded on numerous occasions to items I have posted here quite respectfully, even when completely shooting down the occasional "off the wall" scenerios I come up with.

Keeping in mind the fact that we don't know eachother; I assume (maybe incorrectly...again I don't really know) that there may be a language barrier involved here and nothing more.

Going back to this case....I think Melody is a completely realistic match to this case and I think the photo work you've uncovered is terrific; quite honestly you unintentionally taught me something about looking for the "little details" (I cant articulate it well "off the cuff"...but thank you :)
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masnitram,
I agree with you 100% regarding KCLD620's response. I am very glad he/she is aboard. We had a pm communication which I should have initiated prior to questioning the response in a public forum. For that I sincerely apologize. I was asking because I really thought at first KC might have some info and waited for a reply when another poster asked. Before I make things worse.....I made an error in posting the question before checking my pm - a mistake I won't make again. :blushing:
I am severely challenged in the area of communication at times! Thanks masnitram for the opportunity to clear this up. :) And thanks to KCLD for a most caring, thoughtful PM exchange.:)
 
I took a closer look at the necklaces. Here is a zoomed-up photo of Melody with her necklace (and the UID's Necklace shown below). It appears that she has some sort of jeweled arrangement at the very front of the necklace (and it appears to be an integral part of the necklace, as opposed to a pendant). I wouldn't think that she would add pendants to hang from the front of the necklace if the necklace already had a jeweled arrangement at the front of it.

2205156690045078242S600x600Q851.jpg
 
Thanks Carl. I see your point. I have no clue what the necklaces actually look like.

If you look at NamUS file 82 you will see that they show two necklaces that are separate and completely different even with different chains. Then look at the recon of the victim and there is a necklace that is different and it shows another small chain around her neck. Two small chains and the heavy one with the bird. Now check out the post mortem. That photo does not represent what NamUS has posted.
 
How about Marcy Jo Andrews? I wish I could find a color photo for comparison; there is very little information about Marcy...however the strange circumtances and the claim that she was held captive (no indication for how long) are intriguing.

I'm at work so I am pressed for time and unable to dig further for more on Marcy. I came across her last night and came back to her today and figured it was worth a shot.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/a/andrews_marcy.html
 
With regard to the necklaces...the photo of Melody appears to be one that was taken in a formal setting, as in she was dressed up for maybe a dance or wedding. In that case, I would not find it unusual that she would wear a more formal necklace with her attire than those found on the UID. Is the necklace that she is wearing in the photo definitely one what she was wearing when she disappeared? Many women have lots of necklaces and change them out depending on what they are wearing, so I would not ruler her out, solely based on the necklaces not matching. As far as I can tell from the available photo, the necklace appears to be a chain with possibly a set row of ornamentation in the middle. I have a similar necklace that I wear for formal occassions, but wear a very dissimilar one for everyday wear.
 
hollye said:
With regard to the necklaces...the photo of Melody appears to be one that was taken in a formal setting, as in she was dressed up for maybe a dance or wedding. In that case, I would not find it unusual that she would wear a more formal necklace with her attire than those found on the UID. Is the necklace that she is wearing in the photo definitely one what she was wearing when she disappeared? Many women have lots of necklaces and change them out depending on what they are wearing, so I would not ruler her out, solely based on the necklaces not matching. As far as I can tell from the available photo, the necklace appears to be a chain with possibly a set row of ornamentation in the middle. I have a similar necklace that I wear for formal occassions, but wear a very dissimilar one for everyday wear.
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I agree totally. I was just responding to the speculation that they might be the same necklace. It's not much of a negative if they are not the same necklace, but it's not the huge positive that it would be if the necklaces were identical.
 
masnitram said:
How about Marcy Jo Andrews? I wish I could find a color photo for comparison; there is very little information about Marcy...however the strange circumtances and the claim that she was held captive (no indication for how long) are intriguing.

I'm at work so I am pressed for time and unable to dig further for more on Marcy. I came across her last night and came back to her today and figured it was worth a shot.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/a/andrews_marcy.html
Click to expand...

I'm familiar with the immediate area Marcy went missing- though not recently. Looking at this location, 2500 W Iowa St, Chicago and Knox Cty KY where the Jane doe was found would not make sense to me as a dumping ground for the perp (who was charged with her murder). He would have had to drive several states away and clear through rural Indiana to dump her in KY. I think it is more likely Marcy was disposed of somewhere in the Chicago area.
 
Cubby said:
I'm familiar with the immediate area Marcy went missing- though not recently. Looking at this location, 2500 W Iowa St, Chicago and Knox Cty KY where the Jane doe was found would not make sense to me as a dumping ground for the perp (who was charged with her murder). He would have had to drive several states away and clear through rural Indiana to dump her in KY. I think it is more likely Marcy was disposed of somewhere in the Chicago area.
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You're right; that would be quite the haul. Hopefully Nowicki will eventually reveal the location of Marcy. I haven't been able to find out if he is in anyway connected to Kentucky via family etc...or if any of his known associates (with KY ties) may have helped him dispose of her.
 
masnitram said:
You're right; that would be quite the haul. Hopefully Nowicki will eventually reveal the location of Marcy. I haven't been able to find out if he is in anyway connected to Kentucky via family etc...or if any of his known associates (with KY ties) may have helped him dispose of her.
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Further reading at the Charley Project link indicates he or his family had a farm in Pulaski Cty, IN - which is still closer to the NW area of IN. If he had her in the apartment for days and there were witnesses putting Marcy there for days, when he disposed of her he likely did so not far from the apartment.

From what I recall of the immediate area it is not too far from really bad neighborhoods and what was then a lot of abandoned buildings. I remember taking the Western Ave. exit from the Eisenhauer to Chicago avenue and that was pretty scary (when I was old enough to realize how bad of a neighborhood that route was I used to pray we'd get to and from our destination off the expressway without being shot).... Also, the projects were only 10 min or so from where Marcy went missing.... So many abandoned buildings around there she could have been disposed of there..... or taken to the lake or the Chicago river... lots and lots of places in the immediate area imo.
 
I did not submit the case based on the necklace and never would. Neither would I base a submission on a similiarlly placed mole or skin lesion. I just look at what is with or described as part of the victim and his/her property and consider that while searching for a physical match.

I received information from my email yesterday that copies of all material from the coroner's office was sent to LE because the anthropologist determined this was a recognizable face and the dentals and face are the first stage. If family says it is not her, that does not mean they will not do DNA testing. So, again I guess it is always down to science.
 
Mensch said:
I did not submit the case based on the necklace and never would. Neither would I base a submission on a similiarlly placed mole or skin lesion. I just look at what is with or described as part of the victim and his/her property and consider that while searching for a physical match.

I received information from my email yesterday that copies of all material from the coroner's office was sent to LE because the anthropologist determined this was a recognizable face and the dentals and face are the first stage. If family says it is not her, that does not mean they will not do DNA testing. So, again I guess it is always down to science.
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For what it is worth, I agree with you that this could possibly be Melody. I definitely see a resemblance. I hope they get back to you.
 
Cubby said:
Further reading at the Charley Project link indicates he or his family had a farm in Pulaski Cty, IN - which is still closer to the NW area of IN. If he had her in the apartment for days and there were witnesses putting Marcy there for days, when he disposed of her he likely did so not far from the apartment.

From what I recall of the immediate area it is not too far from really bad neighborhoods and what was then a lot of abandoned buildings. I remember taking the Western Ave. exit from the Eisenhauer to Chicago avenue and that was pretty scary (when I was old enough to realize how bad of a neighborhood that route was I used to pray we'd get to and from our destination off the expressway without being shot).... Also, the projects were only 10 min or so from where Marcy went missing.... So many abandoned buildings around there she could have been disposed of there..... or taken to the lake or the Chicago river... lots and lots of places in the immediate area imo.
Click to expand...

Very true; and considering the amount of renovating being done over the past decade (removal of Cabrini Green as an example) it would be quite easy to even unknowingly move a body/disturb a crime scene.

I used to work and live on the WI/IL border and I often forget about the Lake County Forest Preserve, the Chain of Lakes, and the overall abundance of wetlands between north Chicago and Pleasant Prairie. Even from Midway, you're not all that far from some pretty remote areas....
 
it is unclear about the status of any submission of Melody Ann Jones to the UID who is the subject of this thread.

Melody's name has not been added to the rule-out list at Namus.
 
I have family ties in Loyall (very close to Harlan). My grandfather was a Creech, of which there are seemingly billions of in the Harlan area.
Gray is along the "main-road" from I-75 to Harlan, so I've driven through there on the way to Harlan. It is now (though not in 1985) on the "old road" segment of 25E. So I am not sure of the trip there/back from I-75 (London/Corbin exit) back then, even though I went by there as a small child. It is basically a straight-shot on the new road.
If there is indeed a killer targeting women with red hair, she is definitely a no-brainer as a victim.
Does anyone have any updates on the "red-head murders?" I know that several unidentified bodies were found along I-75 in Campbell County TN (just south of the KY border).
 
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