All About Chloroform#2

[LinasK]

Originally Posted by strach304

I'm not really finding a good link for the Fabreze but I did notice one site stated some of the ingredients are found in fabric softeners.

My post from yesterday seems to have disappeared on it, in fact I couldn't find the whole thread... but I checked my old spray bottle of Febreze. Nowhere does it list Chloroform as an ingredient. It is billed as a safe product(In fact it has the Good Housekeeping seal of approval on it) that may be used on carseats. The only precautions are to keep out of reach of children and don't spray directly towards the face. Ingredients: Contains odor neutralizers, quality control agents, perfume and water.

[LinasK]

Just got back from a market, no cans of Febreze, although Bounce dryer sheets including Febreze. Neither of any of the spray bottles of Febreze, nor the dryer sheets list Chloroform! What a surprise, NOT!!! The active ingredient in many of the bottles was a form of ammonium chloride, IIRC...
Will check my other chain market next time I am there.

[Harmony2]

Originally Posted by LolaMoon08

I'm having a really hard time with the chloroform lately and please hear me out with this. From what I understand from the testimony given is that chloroform evaporates. We know for a fact that Casey's car was sealed from June 27th, 2008 (abandoned it at Amscot) until July 15th, 2008 (Cindy and George picked the car up). Between June 16th, 2008 (Caylee's murder) until June 27th, 2008... the trunk of that car had been opened numerous times and I would have to believe that some of that air would have escaped from the trunk.

I believe that Caylee was intially put in the trunk of that car on June 16th and driven around until June 18th-June 19th when she borrowed the shovel and attempted to bury Caylee in the Anthony home (the dogs alerting to the backyard). So the trunk of Casey's car would have had to have been opened twice that day. I believe that Caylee was thrown out into those woods off Suburban Drive on June 18th-June 19th. The trunk had to have been opened on either one of these days. The trunk also had to have been opened in order of Casey to attempt to clean the trunk (the paper towels with gravewax, etc...). I believe that Casey put Tony's trash bag in the trunk of her car whenever this happened. The trunk was also opened on July 24th, 2008 when George confronted Casey with the gas cans.

So the trunk of that car had been opened (allowing air to escape) at least 4 times between Caylee's death and her leaving the car at Amscot. Who knows how many more times it had been opened in Casey's attempt to get rid of the smell.

So I don't understand... how after all that time... and the trunk being opened and shut... being aired out for hours on end on July 15th and 16th... could there be that level of chloroform detected?

I am think that Casey used chloroform to attempt to get rid of any evidence in the trunk. That she drenched it in Chloroform and who knows what else... in order to get rid of the smell. She left the car at Amscot without gas (maybe she thought she would get blown up and why would she want to do that when she was living the "beautiful life) and possibly went back to get the car thinking that it would have solved her little problem and would go about her merry little way... except when she got back... her car was gone.

I googled "Chloroform" and in every site it took me to it is listed as a solvent. A simple dictionary search resulted in these definitions: 1) A usually liquid subtance capable of dissolving or dispersing one of more other substances 2) something that provides a solution 3) something that eliminates or attenuates something especially unwanted.

Casey did the original searches for chloroform on March 17th, 2008 (her favorite holiday... was she upset about not being able to go out because of her "snot head" Caylee?).

On March 19th, 2008 - Casey did the searches for the One Tree Hill Episode about the nanny kidnapping a child... this was her birthday! Very weird to me?

On March 21st - Casey's interest in chloroform peaks and she searches how to make chloroform. Neck breaking. Household weapons and shovel.

Premeditated much??

If she had planned to make chloroform her primary murder weapon... why would she be searching for neck breaking, household weapons, and shovel?

I also looked into what is used to clean up a crimescene and there is a machine called the Ionic Zone Ozone Generator that I guess had been used in the past (it is now unavailable) and chloroform is listed... I have no idea what it was listed for because I don't understand it? It states on the website that the machine "removes strong odors from unoccupied spaces (such as motel rooms and automobiles) in a short period of time. Acetone and Peroxcide (Casey's searches) are also mentioned. I think we would know from her computer searches if she ever did see these websites... but did she have access to other computers? Just wondering?

I guess I simply don't understand how the levels could have been so high with the amount of activity Casey had between June 16th, 2008 and June 27th, 2008. That is why I believe the chloroform may have been used after Caylee was deceased? As an attempt to get rid of evidence and the smell. It states everywhere that Chloroform has a "sweet" smell?

I don't know?

This may shed a little light but I am not sure it is enough to answer your questions.

Chloroform evaporates quickly and in its concentrated gaseous form, it will tend to settle to the ground before dispersing.

http://scorecard.goodguide.com/chemi...hloroform.html

Valhall explains it in understandable layman's terms:

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2009/11...orm-was-found/

[gramcracker]

Originally Posted by Baznme

I took a trip back into the photo archives today for this case and noticed as Caylee was going from the toddler stage to a 3 yr. old, she got noticably thinner in the face, arms and trunk of her body. The dark circles under her eyes become more pronounced to the point in some of the photos, it is very noticeable. I've done a few google searches to see what the symptoms of chloroform abuse are and all I've seen is eye irritation and damage to the eyes as just a couple of the symptoms. If we have any medical personnel on here that could shed some light on that, please help me to understand where those dark circles may have come from. I would also like to mention that in those particular pictures, Caylee seems to show apprehension, lack of a sincere smile and an untrusting expression on her face. Maybe it's just my perception but, I don't think so. Anyone? Can you shed some light on this?

dark circles under the eyes can be a symptom of allergies. also can be very noticable if someone has asthma, and serves as a "heads up" to parents/caregivers that a child's asthmatic condition is flaring up

you can read about it by searching allergic shiner

ITA re your observations that Caylee seemed guarded in many photos as she grew older. not nearly as happy/carefree, like the younger photos

::: sigh :::

[strach304]

I can't remember where I came across a tip suggesting putting dryer sheets inside of the pillow case to keep them smelling fresh but it is something I used to do all the time. I am also guilty of fabrezing my cat once.

[Nore]

Originally Posted by Harmony2

This may shed a little light but I am not sure it is enough to answer your questions.



http://scorecard.goodguide.com/chemi...hloroform.html

Valhall explains it in understandable layman's terms:

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2009/11...orm-was-found/

--------------
Thank you Harmony. That is what I was looking for. Now to find the Doc with word about chloroform on the momma doll!

[Baznme]

Originally Posted by gramcracker

dark circles under the eyes can be a symptom of allergies. also can be very noticable if someone has asthma, and serves as a "heads up" to parents/caregivers that a child's asthmatic condition is flaring up

you can read about it by searching allergic shiner

ITA re your observations that Caylee seemed guarded in many photos as she grew older. not nearly as happy/carefree, like the younger photos

::: sigh :::

From what I understand it can also be a sign of toxicity to include red earlobes or cheeks; wriggly legs; and dark circles under their eyes, via neurotoxic substances—those that actually damage the nervous system.

I would like to persue this more since....IF the dark circles and red cheeks can be signs of toxicity, the changes in Caylee's appearance from toddler to a 3 yr. old, may indicate how long that had been taking place and may also explain the high concentrations of chloroform in the stained carpet.

[sleutherontheside]

Originally Posted by gramcracker

dark circles under the eyes can be a symptom of allergies. also can be very noticable if someone has asthma, and serves as a "heads up" to parents/caregivers that a child's asthmatic condition is flaring up

you can read about it by searching allergic shiner

ITA re your observations that Caylee seemed guarded in many photos as she grew older. not nearly as happy/carefree, like the younger photos

::: sigh :::

Thanks for this post. My son suffers from mild allergies but prefers NOT to take medication for them. The circles don't bother him and we see a HUGE difference when we travel to other climates with fewer common allegens. Florida is full of plant and mold allergens especially during blooming seasons and in humid climates.

While I remain open to the possibility that the dark circles under Caylee's eyes could be due to some sort of "medicating"...I consider the simplest and most logical explanation for them to be allergens and / or a lack of good restorative sleep.

[Baznme]

Originally Posted by sleutherontheside

Thanks for this post. My son suffers from mild allergies but prefers NOT to take medication for them. The circles don't bother him and we see a HUGE difference when we travel to other climates with fewer common allegens. Florida is full of plant and mold allergens especially during blooming seasons and in humid climates.

While I remain open to the possibility that the dark circles under Caylee's eyes could be due to some sort of "medicating"...I consider the simplest and most logical explanation for them to be allergens and / or a lack of good restorative sleep.

Florida?........well, yup, there's plenty here to be allergic to. I live here so I know that all too well but while I agree that the simplest and most logical explanation would be allergens, there are more symptoms on Caylee's face than just dark circles. The weight loss, the redness of the cheeks, lethargy and the high levels of chloroform in her mother's car along with the high concentrations from Caylee's body fluids in the car carpeting are a pretty strong clue it wasn't an allergy. The issue with the chloroform needs to take on a new level of scrutiny in court IMO. The chloroform prescence is one thing. The concentration of it in the pieces of carpeting where the body staining was found is another. From what I am reading about chloroform in the body, roughly 67% of it is retained so if this practice is used over and over, it builds up in the body until it can no longer tolerate the concentration. To me, that explains why the body fluids were so concentrated with it. IMO, just the mere fact that those two components are intermingled (body fluid and chloroform) tells me what we all need to know.

Passing this off as an allergy could make a HUGE difference as to whether KC walks free or pays for what she may have been doing to Caylee......for months!

[sleutherontheside]

Originally Posted by Baznme

Florida?........well, yup, there's plenty here to be allergic to. I live here so I know that all too well but while I agree that the simplest and most logical explanation would be allergens, there are more symptoms on Caylee's face than just dark circles. The weight loss, the redness of the cheeks, lethargy and the high levels of chloroform in her mother's car along with the high concentrations from Caylee's body fluids in the car carpeting are a pretty strong clue it wasn't an allergy. The issue with the chloroform needs to take on a new level of scrutiny in court IMO. The chloroform prescence is one thing. The concentration of it in the pieces of carpeting where the body staining was found is another. From what I am reading about chloroform in the body, roughly 67% of it is retained so if this practice is used over and over, it builds up in the body until it can no longer tolerate the concentration. To me, that explains why the body fluids were so concentrated with it. IMO, just the mere fact that those two components are intermingled (body fluid and chloroform) tells me what we all need to know.

Passing this off as an allergy could make a HUGE difference as to whether KC walks free or pays for what she may have been doing to Caylee......for months!

Perhaps I should clarify....I was in no way trying to argue that chloroform was not used in this case....only that the possibility of the dark circles could be attributed to something else.

IMO...KC was too lazy to "make" chloroform on a continual basis. I suspect if she did...it was only ONE time. I would also suspect that prior to that time cold medications could have been used in high doses as the sedative of choice.

When Barry Logan ( I believe) stated work on "over the counter cold medication" research it caught my attention.

I went back and read about JA's theory in court...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...-hearing_N.htm

"Her killer would prepare some substance in advance that would render her physically unable to resist," said Ashton during the pretrial hearing. "If the killer looked at her face, maybe the killer saw her eyes ... First one piece (of tape), then two, then three so that no breath was possible."

I believe that the comment about Logan's experience in studying toxicity of OTC cold meds was made to add a statement to the record that could later assist with a reasonable doubt theory.

[Baznme]

Originally Posted by sleutherontheside

Perhaps I should clarify....I was in no way trying to argue that chloroform was not used in this case....only that the possibility of the dark circles could be attributed to something else.

IMO...KC was too lazy to "make" chloroform on a continual basis. I suspect if she did...it was only ONE time. I would also suspect that prior to that time cold medications could have been used in high doses as the sedative of choice.

When Barry Logan ( I believe) stated work on "over the counter cold medication" research it caught my attention.

I went back and read about JA's theory in court...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...-hearing_N.htm

"Her killer would prepare some substance in advance that would render her physically unable to resist," said Ashton during the pretrial hearing. "If the killer looked at her face, maybe the killer saw her eyes ... First one piece (of tape), then two, then three so that no breath was possible."

I believe that the comment about Logan's experience in studying toxicity of OTC cold meds was made to add a statement to the record that could later assist with a reasonable doubt theory.

True enough Sleuther but with all due respect, that article was over 2 years ago. We know a lot more now than we did then.

The possibilities are endless when you don't know the the substance used. The strong indicators are so far as I know pointing to.......Chloroform......not cold meds. To the tune of 10,000 times higher than what is normal in a closed environment. But for the sake of a fair exchange of ideas here, whether it was cold meds, chloroform, whatever it was, there were changes in Caylee's appearances to indicate something was going on. That was my point although I am still trying to find solid info on the symptoms of chloroform poisoning in children. Not an easy subject to pursue as there is not much out there on it.

[sleutherontheside]

Oh Baznme.....it's times like this I get frustrated. I interpret your post to name chloroform as the culprit for the dark circles.

My position is that I believe it is possible that KC used OTC meds for a while until they no longer "did the job"...thus requiring further action such as chloroform.

My interpretation of the "prepared in advance " comment was to support premeditation. Whether she used it once or 40 times....the fact that she would have prepared it in advance would be instrumental in arguing for the death penalty.

Perhaps she did use it more than once...storing it perhaps in her trunk as that was likely the only "safe place" to do so.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that I suspect that the defense intends to use accidental OD of cold medication as a factor for reasonable doubt.

Does that make sense??

I am not discounting the chloroform, but rather anticipating an alernate theory the DT will possibly offer.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Baznme

Florida?........well, yup, there's plenty here to be allergic to. I live here so I know that all too well but while I agree that the simplest and most logical explanation would be allergens, there are more symptoms on Caylee's face than just dark circles. The weight loss, the redness of the cheeks, lethargy and the high levels of chloroform in her mother's car along with the high concentrations from Caylee's body fluids in the car carpeting are a pretty strong clue it wasn't an allergy. !

Could you please tell me where you read or heard that Caylee was suffering from weight loss, redness in cheeks and dark circles under her eyes?

[Intermezzo]

Originally Posted by sleutherontheside

Thanks for this post. My son suffers from mild allergies but prefers NOT to take medication for them. The circles don't bother him and we see a HUGE difference when we travel to other climates with fewer common allegens. Florida is full of plant and mold allergens especially during blooming seasons and in humid climates.

While I remain open to the possibility that the dark circles under Caylee's eyes could be due to some sort of "medicating"...I consider the simplest and most logical explanation for them to be allergens and / or a lack of good restorative sleep.

bbm
I agree.

Here are some of the causes for Dark Under Eye Circles that I have read & heard.

1) Heredity
2) Nasal congestion due to Allergies, cold, flu, infections
3) Children who's complexion is fair or uneven have a higher rate of developing under eye circles...
4) That lack of sleep causes the skin to be paler which accentuates the dark circles under your eyes and makes them appear more prominent.
--------------------------------------------------

But none of that answers the question of WHY the HIGH levels of Chloroform in the car/trunk

[sleutherontheside]

Originally Posted by Solace

Could you please tell me where you read or heard that Caylee was suffering from weight loss, redness in cheeks and dark circles under her eyes?

I don't think that Baznme was stating it as a documented fact...just that a review of photos over time showed a distinct change in appearance.

[Baznme]

Originally Posted by Solace

Could you please tell me where you read or heard that Caylee was suffering from weight loss, redness in cheeks and dark circles under her eyes?

I did not read that. I can see it in the photos of Caylee. You don't have to agree with me. That is my opinion. To see for yourself, go back through this thread and make your own determination. Focus on Caylee's features and try to determine them in chronological order, i.e., toddler, post toddler, going from 2 to 3 yrs of age and growing.

Images Only NO DISCUSSION! - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Images Only NO DISCUSSION! - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

[BlOnDe_GuRrL]

Please move if inappropriate

An email I received from P&G -
As I stated in another thread, I emailed P&G because "quite frankly" (which means I really wasn't.. just wanted to prove a point) I was concerned about hosing my sofa and kids shoes, bedding and my car down with Chloroform every time I ran for the Febreez.

Here's what they had to say (copied and pasted)

Thanks for contacting Febreze [ ref:00D7JViV.5007GThHi:ref ]
Sent By:
"\"P&G North America\" <pg_naconsumerrelations@mailnj.custhelp.com>" <pg_naconsumerrelations@mailnj.custhelp.com> On: Apr 04/06/11 4:51 PM
To: "mary" <xxxx@comcast.net>


Dear Mary,

Thank you for contacting Febreze.

I must assure that absolutely no version of Febreze contains or as you asked, "off gases" or emits Chloroform. I really appreciate that you took the time to share this information with us. Our products are thoroughly evaluated to be safe when used as directed. Additionally, we maintain an ongoing safety monitoring program to assure the highest standards of safety and quality. We understand your concerns and I’ll be sharing your comments with the rest of the Febreze team.

Please visit our website www.pg.com/productsafety to view a list of the ingredients that are used in our products. We would also be happy if you helped us to quell this rumour by sharing this information with friends and family.

Thanks again for contacting Febreze.

Raynor A.
Febreze Team

[BlOnDe_GuRrL]

that's exactly why i emailed them...
well no... i was hoping my inquiry would prompt some testing.. and an official statement w/ test results from P&G that Febreze will NOT show in any air sample test that 10,000 times the normal amount of chloroform is present in the air.. or any chloroform for that matter.
i douse my entire house.. kids and all in this stuff.. i have the right to know.. and caylee deserves the TRUTH.

[AZlawyer]

Ingredients for Febreze Air Effects Extra Strength:

http://www.pg.com/productsafety/ingr...a_Strength.pdf

Molecular formula for chloroform is CHCl3. I don't think there would be any chlorine in any of these ingredients to make up the "Cl" part of that formula.

[BlOnDe_GuRrL]

actually... the guys who work with my husband attempted to do an air sample test.. when i get the full results & pictures of the experiment, i'll be sure to post it..
but anyway, none of it.. febreze, dryer sheets, etc produced chloroform.
it's interesting to note (and scary) that the generic dryer sheets produced phosphorus.. which is highly flammable.

the bissel carpet cleaner did produce chloroform though.. but only when mixed with (tap) water- @ 2 parts per billion. 6 oz of carpet cleaner was used for one bag and 6 oz of cleaner + 6 oz of water for the other.

eta: all items that were tested are (in tyvek mailing envelopes - it's all i had)
febreze in bottle (original scent) entire bottle used on cotton/nylon blend shirt
febreze in can (lavender & vanillla scent) entire can used on cotton/nylon blend shirt
bissel carpet cleaner - 6 oz used on cotton/nylon blend shirt
bissel carpet cleaner + equal amounts of water (6 oz each) used on cotton/nylon blend shirt
room air - from my kitchen
room air - from the building the GCMS machine was in
bounce dryer sheets (3)
arm & hammer dryer sheets (3)
generic dryer sheets -from dollar store (3)
a tyvek (usps mailing bag) that once contained a 4 day dead gerbil, until he was transfered to his final resting wicker basket & buried (rip stinky, the gerbil)
tap water (20 oz) used on cotton/nylon blend shirt
a "pair of testicles" shaped cheeto (cheese puff) - because i wanted to save it but my daughter put it in the envelope for whatever reason
a hello kitty trading card - once again.. my daughter insisted but i don't know if it was going to be tested.

[Capri]

Uh oh, BGurl, Shhhh! Too late-We know what the DT will be throwing out there next...


(saying that jokingly, but we'll see if they read here or not)

[BlOnDe_GuRrL]

lol i know.. right!
it would be "funny" if CA would suddenly remember that she shampooed the trunk lol

he said that more than likely the chloroform came from the tap water.. not the carpet cleaner itself and at 2 parts per billion, it's almost undetectable.

[LinasK]

Carrying over my posts from the Chloroform thread.

Originally Posted by LinasK

I checked my old spray bottle of Febreze. Nowhere does it list Chloroform as an ingredient. It is billed as a safe product(In fact it has the Good Housekeeping seal of approval on it) that may be used on carseats. The only precautions are to keep out of reach of children and don't spray directly towards the face. Ingredients: Contains odor neutralizers, quality control agents, perfume and water.

Originally Posted by LinasK

Just got back from a market, no cans of Febreze, although Bounce dryer sheets including Febreze. Neither of any of the spray bottles of Febreze, nor the dryer sheets list Chloroform! What a surprise, NOT!!! The active ingredient in many of the bottles was a form of ammonium chloride, IIRC...
Will check my other chain market next time I am there.

Originally Posted by Sonne

Here is the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for Febreze:

http://www.hescoinc.com/Msds/pg11828.pdf